Skelton is responsible for 8 of 13 wins since Warner bailed.

[AzStevenCal]

Far too reasonable for this discussion.

Does anyone really believe that there is any chance that Kolb does enough to merit his 9 million dollar salary for next year? I'd love to hear the logic behind that one.

As that seems highly unlikely, it seems like when choosing between two bad options, you may want to choose the option that at least has potential to improve, not the one publicly called out by opponents for being scared. (and isn't one hit away from a career ending concussion)

I've been watching a lot of NFL shows the past few days (NFL Access, NFL Live, NFL AM etc) and I can't tell you how many times I've heard a former-player-now-pretending-to-be-a-professsional-football-analyst suggest that you have to go with Skelton because the team has lost faith in Kolb.

Steve

 

[Jetstream Green]

Just too darn similar to the Horns. Two QBs neither of whom has stood out, a pourous offensive line, solid RBs, and a top tier Defense. If only the Cards could start the season against Wyoming and New Mexico.

problem in the NFL, there is no such thing as a easy win and the Horns better take that into account even on a college level with the goof ball outings they have had of late where it should have been a easy outing because when you fall behind and do not have a passing attack, it just leads to a bigger hole with all the sacks and ints trying to comeback and all the stud running backs in the world can't help you then. I was at that UCLA game, sickening but I did get to see that Carter dude...but at the time could not even enjoy that because I had no idea who he was and that the Cards would draft him lol

 

[Duckjake]

Far too reasonable for this discussion.

Does anyone really believe that there is any chance that Kolb does enough to merit his 9 million dollar salary for next year? I'd love to hear the logic behind that one.

As that seems highly unlikely, it seems like when choosing between two bad options, you may want to choose the option that at least has potential to improve, not the one publicly called out by opponents for being scared. (and isn't one hit away from a career ending concussion)

All we've heard from the Kolb Krazies the past 6 months in his defense is that Skelton is inaccurate and the defense and special teams won all those games last season. Not one word about anything Kolb has shown that makes people think we can win with him.

 

[desertdawg]

All we've heard from the Kolb Krazies the past 6 months in his defense is that Skelton is inaccurate and the defense and special teams won all those games last season. Not one word about anything Kolb has shown that makes people think we can win with him.

In my best Captain Kirk voice:

"I must... have said.... something...somewhere."

Facts, injuries, and stats aside, the only reason I want Kolb to start is because I think we will bring more wins than Skelton this season if he stays healthy. A lot of "buts" and "ifs" in there for sure, but I wouldn't start Skelton because of what happened last year. i think it's Kolb's last shot, and I won't be upset one bit if Skelton gets the nod later on or comes in at some point.

 

[Joe L]

Yes. It is what the OP who has said time and time again about this subject with little substance to qualify except for "Skelton's record as a starter is 6-2" statement. The problem is the topic infers that it was Skelton and Skelton alone that was responsible for the wins. There were numerous instances when he needed much assistance from the defense and special teams to get a one-possession victory.

I think we can all agree that Skelton is not Brees, Peyton, Brady, or Rodgers. He's not talented enough to eviscerate opponents and put a team on his back while the rest of the squad is struggling.

I give credit where credit is due. Skelton had a couple of Herculean efforts that cannot be ignored, such as the SF home game. But more often than not, it was 55 minutes of putrid offense with the defense and special teams making key 3 and outs, blocked kicks, and punt returns for TDs to keep the game manageable. This all resulted in a 10 ppg allowed reduction. It occurred coincidentally the day Skelton took over; where at the same time, Horton pared down the defensive playbook as the players appeared to be overwhelmed and confused.

I prefer to look at it this way - how many of those victories would Bartel or Kolb have "earned" if it would have been one of them starting instead of Skelton? Take into consideration that the team was a) playing a lighter schedule the second half of the season and b) the defense was allowing 10 ppg less per game. It is much easier to initiate a comeback when the opposition posted 17 points as opposed to 27. This notion was put to the test during the second half of the season when Kolb played one game vs. the Cowboys and led the team to an OT victory 19-13.

I'm not trying to say that one QB is better than the other. I'm over that conversation. Rather, I'm questioning whether or not Skelton was the catalyst for the majority of victories. I believe based on watching the second half of games that the majority of credit belongs to the defense because it figured out how to play in Horton's system. The QB who posted a 67 QB rating and a negative TD:INT, IMO, was not the difference maker.

Great post!

 

[Darkside]

All we've heard from the Kolb Krazies the past 6 months in his defense is that Skelton is inaccurate and the defense and special teams won all those games last season. Not one word about anything Kolb has shown that makes people think we can win with him.

Before Skelton's last bad game I actually thought he had the job locked up.

Here's my crazy take on it: Kolb's already got his money. I don't think Skelton presents a better alternative at this point, since I think they're both really bad. Honestly, either one can start and I won't be upset, that's how bad I think they both are at this point. Going back to the money though: the man's already been paid, and I really believe you gotta put him out there and see what you paid for. He may fail spectacularly, the chances are high.

This is something people don't like to hear, but after spending that much money on a dude, you have to know for a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt. Just so the Krazies (as you put it) like me don't always wonder. Just so coach Whis and the front office don't wonder if they pulled the plug too early. You make an investment like that, you have to know beyond a doubt.

Fans are fickle, understandably so. Whis may have had a longer leash with Kolb if he hadn't already used all of it on DA and Max Hall. Let's not pretend like that hasn't had an impact in these discussions on here. Whis lost a lot of leeway and squandered our patience with those moves. Had he not done that, Kolb would easily get a chance this year with most fans (I believe). It's like people who bought Facebook stock and then it plummets. Bad investors spend 50 million and then sell as soon as it starts to suck, but people who know what they're doing are patient and wait for it to stabilize and at least get back to where it was, if not improve.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting Kolb. Not one bit. But you have to see what you paid for, with all the excuses of no playbook knowledge and a lack of an offseason, all that, with all those excuses gone. The other dimension nobody wants to discuss is that I think Skelton will benefit more from watching Kolb get destroyed than Kolb will from watching Skelton. Skelton isn't going anywhere, but this is Kolb's last chance. You can start Kolb and Skelton stays and we still have him to develop, but you can't start Skelton and expect the same.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I've been on this board for nine years now and when I first joined we were discussing the merits of Jeff Blake vs Josh McCown and Preston Parsons. Not sure I could have predicted the same thing happening a decade later.

 

[Darkside]

I love it. At least people care and are passionate. Before UofP opened in 2003 I went to games at SDS knowing we were going to lose, or even if winning, that some freak thing would happen to make us lose, but I got all the beers I could drink and people always left early so that I could hop their seats on the 50 yard line. Good times.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I've been on this board for nine years now and when I first joined we were discussing the merits of Jeff Blake vs Josh McCown and Preston Parsons. Not sure I could have predicted the same thing happening a decade later.

With the exception of the Warner Era... this is a very predictable scenario for Cardinal fans.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Like I said a few weeks ago, here is my impression of the Cult of Skelton:

Skelton is 6-2! DURRRRR!

This is the only argument FOR John Skelton. Every other argument points to him being a god awful QB.

Like Kerouac pointed out, when Skelton took over, our schedule was significantly easier. And many of us believe that the defense started playing better, and even though we scored less points with Skelton leading the team, we won more.

The team played better. 22 guys were responsible for the turnaround, not just John Skelton. That's why this thread is now the 2nd most ******** thread ever, it completely ignores the reality that the team was winning despite starting a QB who posted a 68 QB rating (SIXTY EIGHT QB RATING!), completed less than 60% of his passes, and threw more picks than TDs, all of which are indicators of a pathetic QB who has no business starting in the National Football League.

So go ahead, hitch your wagons to the suckfest that is John Skelton. He had a chance to sew up the QB job last week and comes out completing 40% of his passes and a pick and generally looking pretty crappy.

As bad as Kolb played last week, he moved the offense, something John Skelton struggles to do whether we're talking this preseason or the first 3 quarters of nearly every game.

My stance, we are going to need 21 guys to play hard to make up for the mistake of one (starting QB) because either starter (Kolb or Skelton) is going to suck the big weenie.

 

[Krangodnzr]

.

This has been refuted numerous times. Why do people keep bringing this up?

Ironically one huge missed FG the second half of the season was in the Cowboys game where Kolb was QB and Dallas iced their own kicker.

Oh, and by the way Eli Manning only had three 4th quarter comebacks his first two seasons. Double Deuce already has 7. Eli who?

Jake Plummer had lots of comebacks too!

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, the "Skelton wins games" argument is flawed... but at least its an argument.

There is no reason at all to start Kolb. He loses games, he gets injured, he sucks balls, his salary in 2013 is so absurd that there is not a chance in hell he will be on the roster after this season... so why waste more time on him?

Put Skelton out there. He is going to have his low roads, for sure, but just freaking see what you have. Let him play out the crap games without looking his shoulder to see if Kolb is warming up his limp noodle and happy feet.

 

[Darkside]

Like I said a few weeks ago, here is my impression of the Cult of Skelton:

Skelton is 6-2! DURRRRR!

This is the only argument FOR John Skelton. Every other argument points to him being a god awful QB.

Like Kerouac pointed out, when Skelton took over, our schedule was significantly easier. And many of us believe that the defense started playing better, and even though we scored less points with Skelton leading the team, we won more.

The team played better. 22 guys were responsible for the turnaround, not just John Skelton. That's why this thread is now the 2nd most ******** thread ever, it completely ignores the reality that the team was winning despite starting a QB who posted a 68 QB rating (SIXTY EIGHT QB RATING!), completed less than 60% of his passes, and threw more picks than TDs, all of which are indicators of a pathetic QB who has no business starting in the National Football League.

So go ahead, hitch your wagons to the suckfest that is John Skelton. He had a chance to sew up the QB job last week and comes out completing 40% of his passes and a pick and generally looking pretty crappy.

As bad as Kolb played last week, he moved the offense, something John Skelton struggles to do whether we're talking this preseason or the first 3 quarters of nearly every game.

My stance, we are going to need 21 guys to play hard to make up for the mistake of one (starting QB) because either starter (Kolb or Skelton) is going to suck the big weenie.

I agree, but Kolb is just as bad and in some ways worse with his INT's. The pick before halftime while he's rolling out and lofts a duck into a swarm of 3 or 4 defenders was disgusting.

He was able to improve though, by throwing a worse pick right after halftime with his first pass. It was the same exact play they ran earlier and he locked onto his man, failing to realize the MLB had cheated his zone (and why shouldn't he, it's the exact same play. It's not bad playcalling either, it's a test of Kolb's ability to read the field, which he didn't). The TE snuck right in behind the cheating LB and was wide open, and I mean wide open in the middle of the field. Kolb makes no read and throws it (as if that play will be open again).

Both these QB's are fairly atrocious. I really just want the guy who's going to throw less picks at this point. Skelton is reading the field at least. He'll make a bad pass (like his awful pick last game) but at least he's reading the field. Kolb just locks on to guys and throws.

Someone please explain how messed up and scared and just stupid you have to be to lock on to a guy running a 3 yard route? I can almost be okay if it was Fitz doing a deep dig, or square in, or whatever, but really--you're going to lock on to the TE running 2 or 3 yards and stopping? That's your best option?

Skelton is just as bad, the only difference is I can make more excuses because he's so young and raw.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Like I said a few weeks ago, here is my impression of the Cult of Skelton:

Could you point out all these people that are in this "Cult of Skelton"? I don't see too many people singing his praises. All is see is a couple of Kolb apologists attacking Skelton and the rest of us saying as bad as John is, he's not as bad as Kolb. Oh sure, there's one or two that probably believe he's destined for greatness but IMO most of us just think that, unlike Kolb, his story is still unfinished.

Steve

 

[PJ1]

Could you point out all these people that are in this "Cult of Skelton"? I don't see too many people singing his praises. All is see is a couple of Kolb apologists attacking Skelton and the rest of us saying as bad as John is, he's not as bad as Kolb. Oh sure, there's one or two that probably believe he's destined for greatness but IMO most of us just think that, unlike Kolb, his story is still unfinished.

Steve

Well said.

 

[52brandon]

"responsible" is a bold word

 

[Darkside]

People don't seem to know what "responsible" means:

1. answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power
2. involving accountability
3. involving decision and accountability
4. accountable for one's own actions

Just so we're clear.

By that definition, when we apply it to a team sport like Football, when applied to the OP's original statement, it merely means Skelton was accountable for those wins or losses. If you don't like it, take it up with the Dictionary.

 

[Joe L]

Could you point out all these people that are in this "Cult of Skelton"? I don't see too many people singing his praises. All is see is a couple of Kolb apologists attacking Skelton and the rest of us saying as bad as John is, he's not as bad as Kolb. Oh sure, there's one or two that probably believe he's destined for greatness but IMO most of us just think that, unlike Kolb, his story is still unfinished.

Steve

Really? Have you looked at the title of this thread? I don't post much but I see a lot of praising of Skelton's heroic comebacks while attacking Kolb. No one needs to point anything out, IMO. It's all here and in just about any QB thread. Maybe you just don't want to see it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh my god... these threads... in support of EITHER QB are just freaking hilarious to me at this point.

thank God these games finally start next week... so these threads can become EVEN WORSE!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Really? Have you looked at the title of this thread? I don't post much but I see a lot of praising of Skelton's heroic comebacks while attacking Kolb. No one needs to point anything out, IMO. It's all here and in just about any QB thread. Maybe you just don't want to see it.

Yep it's freaking obvious, and annoying.

John Skelton sucks. He's not going to develop into anything more than a mediocre backup. Put that on record for me, I'll buy every Skelton apologist a six pack of beer. I'll buy up to 50 six packs of beer, because on this site there are likely 50 posters in love with Jake Kent Josh Skelton.

Seriously I don't get why this is a topic that matters so much. Skelton blows. Kolb blows.

 

[Joe L]

People don't seem to know what "responsible" means:

1. answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power
2. involving accountability
3. involving decision and accountability
4. accountable for one's own actions

Just so we're clear.

By that definition, when we apply it to a team sport like Football, when applied to the OP's original statement, it merely means Skelton was accountable for those wins or losses. If you don't like it, take it up with the Dictionary.

I'm pretty sure people know what responsible means. And just like you, I can source the definition of the word too:

re·spon·si·ble/riˈspänsəbəl/
Adjective:

1- Having an obligation to do something as part of a job or role.
2- Being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=res...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

So when you take the words of LIAC:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2677429&postcount=16

You can only come to the conclusion that he meant that Skelton is the catalyst for the team. Which means he thinks he's responsible for the wins. He makes the teammates better. So I really don't know where your conclusion came from, Liac's explanation is pretty obvious..."The proof is in the pudding".

Disclaimer:

No offense, Liac.

 

[Stout]

The Cards won 2 games last season where Kolb played the entire game. One on a PP21 punt return and one when Dallas iced their own kicker to send the game to overtime.

I'm sorry but anytime a QB leads six-seven 75+ yard drives to win or tie he's as responsible as anyone or group for the wins. This isn't figure skating where you get style points for how your QB plays in the first half.

But neither one is in a position to win for us now. Especially with that disaster we call an offensive line. In fact FEMA has sent a representative to Arizona to see if any Cardinal fans need federal assistance.

Like I said a few weeks ago, here is my impression of the Cult of Skelton:

Skelton is 6-2! DURRRRR!

This is the only argument FOR John Skelton. Every other argument points to him being a god awful QB.

Like Kerouac pointed out, when Skelton took over, our schedule was significantly easier. And many of us believe that the defense started playing better, and even though we scored less points with Skelton leading the team, we won more.

The team played better. 22 guys were responsible for the turnaround, not just John Skelton. That's why this thread is now the 2nd most ******** thread ever, it completely ignores the reality that the team was winning despite starting a QB who posted a 68 QB rating (SIXTY EIGHT QB RATING!), completed less than 60% of his passes, and threw more picks than TDs, all of which are indicators of a pathetic QB who has no business starting in the National Football League.

So go ahead, hitch your wagons to the suckfest that is John Skelton. He had a chance to sew up the QB job last week and comes out completing 40% of his passes and a pick and generally looking pretty crappy.

As bad as Kolb played last week, he moved the offense, something John Skelton struggles to do whether we're talking this preseason or the first 3 quarters of nearly every game.

My stance, we are going to need 21 guys to play hard to make up for the mistake of one (starting QB) because either starter (Kolb or Skelton) is going to suck the big weenie.

Substitute 'potential' and 'I just have a feeling' and 'if he stays healthy' for '6-2', keep the Durrrrrrrrrr!, and you have the Kolb homers. We don't have a good QB situation, and we don't have a good OL situation. My opinion at this point is that Kolb simply sucks worse, so Skelton gives us a better chance. It's hard to look at last season and point to where Kolb was better.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Really? Have you looked at the title of this thread? I don't post much but I see a lot of praising of Skelton's heroic comebacks while attacking Kolb. No one needs to point anything out, IMO. It's all here and in just about any QB thread. Maybe you just don't want to see it.

I don't see a lot of praising of Skelton. Honestly, I don't see a lot of praising of either of our QB's and rightfully so. Most of what you see is a reaction to the people that claim Skelton deserves none of the credit for the wins. All the credit should go to the defense or special teams or anyone other than Skelton and that John benefitted from those things plus an easy schedule. It's been suggested many times that Kolb would have done the same or better had he been around when the games got easier and the defense got tougher.

As for being responsible for the wins. There is context. It's not uncommon to say this QB went 11 - 4 or this one lost his first 13 starts. Nobody here thinks that John came in and took a team that couldn't win and single handedly led them to victory (at least, I don't think anyone actually believes that). When it comes time to compare QB's, especially QB's that play for the same team, it's not unreasonable to look at the wins and losses each player is responsible for.

Steve

 

[Darkside]

But if we do that we're no better than dudes who loved Tim Tebow. But he won games! That's their thing. Doesn't make him a good QB or any QB who would take us to playoffs or win SB's. Not at all.

Neither of these QB's are likely to take us to the playoffs. Neither one of them, they suck that bad. Neither one is going to win a SB.

I don't care who you're for, which QB on our roster, do you think, is a SB winner?

Pretty much none of them. I said this before, we're picking between two turds, one shinier than the next because he was just sh*t out in front of us and we want to play with it. My dog eats cat turds sometimes, doesn't mean anything.

Except that maybe he's sick, like Whis. I try to get him to stop, but he keeps eating 'em.

 

[artp]

Do we even believe anymore that either K Kolb or J Skelton can get us to the Super bowl? Isn't that the goal?
IMO, cut Kolb.