Skelton is terrible

[D-Dogg]

I think the problem with Whis is that he doesn't know the difference between what he wants to do and what he's able to do.

You nailed it with that statement. Completely, totally nailed it. He went to the run yesterday because it was working and Beanie was rolling. Less spread, more two back or two TE sets was good for running, protection and play action passing. It is what this team is built for, so when Whis gets shotgun and spread happy, seeing the ghost of Kurt Warner out there, it is infuriating to me.

Heap and King healthy, rarely used.

Kolb likes to use the TE - he was looking for Heap early in the season, he found King a lot, and in Philly he was in love with his TE. With a ball control offense like we SHOULD be running, a QB who knows the value of using the tight end is important..it isn't run run deep pass. It is run, run short pass, run run short pass run deep pass, short pass, etc. TE is necessary in that strategy.



IMO, the primary problem with Kolb is chicken-like behavior in the pocket. If you've ever been on a farm and seen a scared chicken, then you will see complete parallels to Kolb. Scared chickens run with no purpose, their heads bouncing around looking for danger but not recognizing what danger is. They panic, and often run right at the danger. Kolb in the pocket looks every bit like a chicken with a fox in the coop, just running super skittish without purpose and into sacks, or chucking it off his back foot into traffic.

Is that fixable? I sure as hell hope so, because a calm Kolb would be able to make the throws needed in this offense. There really isn't any other MAJOR flaw in his game causing the horrible performances we've seen from him. He's simply panicking as soon as the ball hits his hands.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree with you it might be the coaching.

I am inclined to agree. The Cards need a change in the QB coach. How about hiring Warner?

 

[WildBB]

You nailed it with that statement. Completely, totally nailed it. He went to the run yesterday because it was working and Beanie was rolling. Less spread, more two back or two TE sets was good for running, protection and play action passing. It is what this team is built for, so when Whis gets shotgun and spread happy, seeing the ghost of Kurt Warner out there, it is infuriating to me.



Kolb likes to use the TE - he was looking for Heap early in the season, he found King a lot, and in Philly he was in love with his TE. With a ball control offense like we SHOULD be running, a QB who knows the value of using the tight end is important..it isn't run run deep pass. It is run, run short pass, run run short pass run deep pass, short pass, etc. TE is necessary in that strategy.



IMO, the primary problem with Kolb is chicken-like behavior in the pocket. If you've ever been on a farm and seen a scared chicken, then you will see complete parallels to Kolb. Scared chickens run with no purpose, their heads bouncing around looking for danger but not recognizing what danger is. They panic, and often run right at the danger. Kolb in the pocket looks every bit like a chicken with a fox in the coop, just running super skittish without purpose and into sacks, or chucking it off his back foot into traffic.

Is that fixable? I sure as hell hope so, because a calm Kolb would be able to make the throws needed in this offense. There really isn't any other MAJOR flaw in his game causing the horrible performances we've seen from him. He's simply panicking as soon as the ball hits his hands.

Agree. When Beannie went down 3rd game vs. Seattle, was a turning point too. They really needed him EVERY game this season. Glad he's delivered NOW.

 

[Dback Jon]

Highly doubt that. The quarterback was only a positive and significant contributing factor in one of the four games (@ Philly). Other than that, the defense has really come together and special teams has been phenomenal.

Skelton made plays in each of the wins in the 4th that Kolb is incapible of making..


The defense/special teams have kept the Cardinals in a number of games earlier that Kolb blew. Kolb gets sacked on the 2nd and 6 on the last scoring drive. Skelton eludes the rush, and throws it away. Next play, a nice pass to Fitz for the first. Kolb would have lost the game yesterday.


Sorry, but 3-1 >>>>> 1-5

No way to spin that.

 

[Linderbee]

I'll take Kolb. Always have.

I know. We disagree, and this is why:

IMO, the primary problem with Kolb is chicken-like behavior in the pocket. If you've ever been on a farm and seen a scared chicken, then you will see complete parallels to Kolb. Scared chickens run with no purpose, their heads bouncing around looking for danger but not recognizing what danger is. They panic, and often run right at the danger. Kolb in the pocket looks every bit like a chicken with a fox in the coop, just running super skittish without purpose and into sacks, or chucking it off his back foot into traffic.

 

[conraddobler]

I am inclined to agree. The Cards need a change in the QB coach. How about hiring Warner?

That would probably be a great idea but I don't think he'd do it he's on the NFL network now from what I can tell.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I know. We disagree, and this is why:

You run for your life, and you are less likely to get injured behind this line. I'd rather him run in a pocket that may or may not be collapsing.

Skelton has shown little to prove that he should take Kolb's place. In fact, he has been Derek Anderson bad....again.

 

[TJ]

Skelton made plays in each of the wins in the 4th that Kolb is incapible of making..


The defense/special teams have kept the Cardinals in a number of games earlier that Kolb blew. Kolb gets sacked on the 2nd and 6 on the last scoring drive. Skelton eludes the rush, and throws it away. Next play, a nice pass to Fitz for the first. Kolb would have lost the game yesterday.


Sorry, but 3-1 >>>>> 1-5

No way to spin that.

Consider it "spin" or whatever you like, but defense and special teams have significantly improved in the past month. It seems as if the units are coming into their own (significant upgrade from the first half of the season). Personally, I don't care who the quarterback is, but this type of production (or lack thereof) from Skelton is not going to be sustainable long-term, IMHO. The team's best option at this point is to continue to work Kolb into the system, work on his mechanics, and surround him with better protection and weapons in the offseason.

This isn't baseball. QBs aren't charged with wins and losses. Vince Young would be a Top 5 QB in this league if overall record was the end all, be all. It's the product of surrounding the mediocre QB with a good team. The Cardinals have been playing good team ball the past few games.

In addition, I don't think Kolb is incapable of doing things Skelton can do. I'll go as far as to say there are plays that Kolb can make that Skelton is incapable of making at this point in their respective careers. I'm not asserting that Kolb is the long-term answer, but if the coaches were to pit the two QBs in a fair competition in training camp next offseason, Kolb would come out the winner.

The bottom line is Skelton looked awful yesterday and absolutely putrid a week ago. There is nothing anymore that suggests Skelton has a brighter future than Kolb on this team. Had he taken the momentum from his game against Philly and translated it into something consistent over the past two weeks, then it would have been prudent to make the permanent change.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Hopefully Kolb will start next week, and remind us all that we don't have anyone any better to put in there.

At least start the guy that wins games, regardless if it is "in spite of".

And yes, I am defending Skelton.

 

[ajcardfan]

That would probably be a great idea but I don't think he'd do it he's on the NFL network now from what I can tell.

No way Warner goes back into the grinding hours and travel of the NFL and coaches. I'd love to have him back around, but I'm not sure he'd be that good of a coach anyhow. I remember Magic Johnson talking about how frustrated he would get coaching because he just couldn't get his players to see the game, and the floor, the way he did. I think Warner would experience the same thing. At times, it was uncanny how he could read the D, even before they tipped their hand, and I'm sure there was often no coherent thought that he could express about why he was able to see what he saw.

 

[Duckjake]

Hopefully Kolb will start next week, and remind us all that we don't have anyone any better to put in there.

At least start the guy that wins games, regardless if it is "in spite of".

And yes, I am defending Skelton.

No doubt. His last 3 games Kolb barely completed half his passes. Skelator in 4 games completes only half of his. Combined over the last 7 games they have a passer rating of 59.

Too bad we can't play the Rams or Carolina every week.

 

[football karma]

Yet again

- A pair of horrid OTs
- no #2 wr
- TEs that can't stay healthy
- a coaching staff that rarely makes adjustments ("The system works")

There are few qbs that can succeed in our current situation

yet the last two weeks -- the protection has been solid and Skelton has time to throw --

and as the protection has gotten better, it seems the more time you give him to think, the more he equivocates in the pocket.

the NFL quickly figures out what QBs do well and what they struggle with. The NFL is on to the current version of John Skelton and is forcing him to make reads he isn't good at. They save their best for 3rd down -- which is why regardless of distance, the Cards have been awful at 3rd down the last three weeks.

All a coaching staff can do is create opportunities -- its up to a QB to deliver on them. I dont know how anybody can so definitively state the coaching was bad when they can't see the full 22, and have no idea if Skelton is regularly looking right past open players.

 

[kerouac9]

Consider it "spin" or whatever you like, but defense and special teams have significantly improved in the past month. It seems as if the units are coming into their own (significant upgrade from the first half of the season). Personally, I don't care who the quarterback is, but this type of production (or lack thereof) from Skelton is not going to be sustainable long-term, IMHO. The team's best option at this point is to continue to work Kolb into the system, work on his mechanics, and surround him with better protection and weapons in the offseason.

This isn't baseball. QBs aren't charged with wins and losses. Vince Young would be a Top 5 QB in this league if overall record was the end all, be all. It's the product of surrounding the mediocre QB with a good team. The Cardinals have been playing good team ball the past few games.

In addition, I don't think Kolb is incapable of doing things Skelton can do. I'll go as far as to say there are plays that Kolb can make that Skelton is incapable of making at this point in their respective careers. I'm not asserting that Kolb is the long-term answer, but if the coaches were to pit the two QBs in a fair competition in training camp next offseason, Kolb would come out the winner.

The bottom line is Skelton looked awful yesterday and absolutely putrid a week ago. There is nothing anymore that suggests Skelton has a brighter future than Kolb on this team. Had he taken the momentum from his game against Philly and translated it into something consistent over the past two weeks, then it would have been prudent to make the permanent change.

Except for 3-1 versus 1-6. There's that pretty powerful argument. Kolb's one win was decided by...

...wait for it...

... defensive turnovers and special teams play. A Patrick Peterson punt return was the difference in the Carolina game.

Kolb apologists like yourself don't make much of a case for their boy asserting that Kolb can't possibly be worse than Skelton. That's wonderful and everything, but if they're equally awful, I'd rather have the guy making $415,000 than the guy making $10 million.

 

[desertdawg]

I saw 2 different QBs play for us yesterday, I think a lot of it had to do with play call. That first half, Skelton was getting mobbed every time we went spread. First half he was floating around back there and was almost leaving his feet when he threw it. Ball was coming out way higH.

Second half, Skelton settled down, literally. Planting his cleets and squaring his throws to receivers, we turned into some kind of (I really don't want to say it) 9er imitation. Churning out run after run, flooding in the different backs and looks, making it easier on the QB to concentrate on the few passes needed with this style.

Establishing the run is such a good thing when you have a nervous/new/struggling QB. Towards the end, our O-line was pushing people around...I know that's their job and all but it was still cool to see, had to call my wife in, like seeing a double rainbow.

 

[Russ Smith]

Except for 3-1 versus 1-6. There's that pretty powerful argument. Kolb's one win was decided by...

...wait for it...

... defensive turnovers and special teams play. A Patrick Peterson punt return was the difference in the Carolina game.

Kolb apologists like yourself don't make much of a case for their boy asserting that Kolb can't possibly be worse than Skelton. That's wonderful and everything, but if they're equally awful, I'd rather have the guy making $415,000 than the guy making $10 million.

Sure but take away Peterson and Skelton has 1 win too and that one win was the Eagles playing an injured QB who had a horrendous day.

I'd like to keep both see if Skelton's accuracy issues can be coached, see if Kolb's issues staying in the pocket can be coached.

 

[Duckjake]

Sure but take away Peterson and Skelton has 1 win too and that one win was the Eagles playing an injured QB who had a horrendous day.

I'd like to keep both see if Skelton's accuracy issues can be coached, see if Kolb's issues staying in the pocket can be coached.

Kolb was starting to have accuracy issues as well. When did Kolb hurt his foot? Maybe that was bothering him the last couple of games.

Regardless I still haven't seen anything out of Kolb to make me think he's anything but a bottom third, if that, NFL QB.

With the way our defense is heading maybe Kolb can be our Joe Flacco.

 

[D-Dogg]

You run for your life, and you are less likely to get injured behind this line. I'd rather him run in a pocket that may or may not be collapsing.

Skelton has shown little to prove that he should take Kolb's place. In fact, he has been Derek Anderson bad....again.

I tend to agree on the second point, but not the first.

Skelton does one thing very well - he stands in the pocket and does not panic. That is HUGE. However, Kolb is more accurate (when standing in the pocket, not on the run like a chicken) and he reads the defense a lot better. Kolb also knows how to use a TE.

I want Kolb to stand in there, and step up into the pocket. The protection IS there, not always of course, but Kolb runs before pressure gets there, and would avoid it by stepping up.

Skelton is throwing high, missing guys like crazy. I hate when QBs miss high...of course it leads to picks, but more importantly is that it puts your WR in danger. DA was notorious at this, and in the NO game last year on a 5 yard out he threw a high ball that ended up breaking vertabrae in Stephen Williams' back. On the first 5 passes to Larry yesterday, 4 were high causing Larry to jump, the last was a complete misread where Larry had a step to the inside and the ball was thrown on a deep out instead. So very Dewreck.

Skelton has the bigger arm, and stands in the pocket better. I think Kolb is the better QB in terms of vision and understanding how to use a TE. He's doesn't tend to miss high, either.

I prefer Kolb, but if can't hold the ef still, he's useless. I think Skelton is a good backup, but he's got to learn to read the whole field and fix the high throws we've seen two weeks in a row.

 

[D-Dogg]

Kolb was starting to have accuracy issues as well. When did Kolb hurt his foot? Maybe that was bothering him the last couple of games.

Regardless I still haven't seen anything out of Kolb to make me think he's anything but a bottom third, if that, NFL QB.

With the way our defense is heading maybe Kolb can be our Joe Flacco.

Whis said his foot was mangled after the Ravens game. Kolb's accuracy issues coincide with when he stopped hanging in the pocket some and instead went full-on chicken mode. His accuracy took a nose dive, as he started throwing on the run and off his back heel.

 

[Dback Jon]

Sure but take away Peterson and Skelton has 1 win too and that one win was the Eagles playing an injured QB who had a horrendous day.

I'd like to keep both see if Skelton's accuracy issues can be coached, see if Kolb's issues staying in the pocket can be coached.

Take away Peterson, Kolb has zero

 

[conraddobler]

yet the last two weeks -- the protection has been solid and Skelton has time to throw --

and as the protection has gotten better, it seems the more time you give him to think, the more he equivocates in the pocket.

the NFL quickly figures out what QBs do well and what they struggle with. The NFL is on to the current version of John Skelton and is forcing him to make reads he isn't good at. They save their best for 3rd down -- which is why regardless of distance, the Cards have been awful at 3rd down the last three weeks.

All a coaching staff can do is create opportunities -- its up to a QB to deliver on them. I dont know how anybody can so definitively state the coaching was bad when they can't see the full 22, and have no idea if Skelton is regularly looking right past open players.

You're alluding to something I've mentioned before and it's the NFL's version of the curve ball.

QB's go through this when they first start playing, a game or two they do ok because the other team has no film on them, then after a while film sets in and you get the 49ers game where they abuse them.

Skelton is at that stage right now and everyone acts like it's permanent, it's not necessarily that way.

For some it is, for others they move past it.

He should be learning and the coaches job is to anticipate what the other team is doing to him and help him through it by the playcalling and by working on the issue in practice.

He is getting some coaching, obviously he responds to it as he adjusts some in the 2nd half which to me is a very good sign.

Don't tell me how horrible he is, tell me if he learns anything.

My main beef with the coaching staff is that they're not as good as IMO they could be at helping a player through this.

Harbaugh is an example of someone who so gets the position he can diagnose what's going wrong and build saftey padding around the guy to help them through it.

This team it's like just keep jumping on the brick wall and maybe it'll come down later, then when desperation sets in they finally flail around and attempt to help him.

They should be doing this from the START OF THE GAME.

JMO.

We do fine in a boring run first offense with Skelton as the QB, we should not be spreading the field out trying to go Kurt Warner on ANYONE with Skelton back there, the team seems to find it very comfortable to play sold defense and let the offense run and plod along.

It holds the score down and it settles everyone down but we still try the spread crap which dosen't work now, don't know why we do.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I tend to agree on the second point, but not the first.

Skelton does one thing very well - he stands in the pocket and does not panic. That is HUGE. However, Kolb is more accurate (when standing in the pocket, not on the run like a chicken) and he reads the defense a lot better. Kolb also knows how to use a TE.

I want Kolb to stand in there, and step up into the pocket. The protection IS there, not always of course, but Kolb runs before pressure gets there, and would avoid it by stepping up.

Skelton is throwing high, missing guys like crazy. I hate when QBs miss high...of course it leads to picks, but more importantly is that it puts your WR in danger. DA was notorious at this, and in the NO game last year on a 5 yard out he threw a high ball that ended up breaking vertabrae in Stephen Williams' back. On the first 5 passes to Larry yesterday, 4 were high causing Larry to jump, the last was a complete misread where Larry had a step to the inside and the ball was thrown on a deep out instead. So very Dewreck.

Skelton has the bigger arm, and stands in the pocket better. I think Kolb is the better QB in terms of vision and understanding how to use a TE. He's doesn't tend to miss high, either.

I prefer Kolb, but if can't hold the ef still, he's useless. I think Skelton is a good backup, but he's got to learn to read the whole field and fix the high throws we've seen two weeks in a row.

He didn't have the jittery pocket issue as much in Philly.

To be fair, I have no faith in our organization to scout and develop QB talent. It doesn't really matter if it is Kolb, Skelton, or DA back there.

 

[crisper57]

His mechanics are so off. His throws were sailing for 2 straight weeks now. That is on the coaches to correct.

Looking forward to Kolb returning. Hopefully the time off, watching his backup rack up wins, has him reaching for a new gear.

 

[kerouac9]

He didn't have the jittery pocket issue as much in Philly.

To be fair, I have no faith in our organization to scout and develop QB talent. It doesn't really matter if it is Kolb, Skelton, or DA back there.

Sure he did. It's what people who weren't in the tank for Kolb were saying all offseason. It wasn't as noticible because the system asked for the QB to escape the pocket and buy time/find throwing lanes. But the problem was there.

Conrad said everything that I wanted to say about Skelton's development to this point. In six or seven starts, the NFL figured out that Skelton doesn't read defensive coverages very well, but can avoid pressure at the line. So, you don't pressure him and instead drop people into coverage and challenge him to find the open receiver or put the ball into a tight window.

He hasn't shown that he can respond do that yet, and part of that is on the coaching staff for not providing him with outlet receivers to dump the ball off to, or to walk him through where the ball is delivered.

It's speculation to say that's because the coaching staff isn't as invested in Skelton's success as they are in making sure that Kolb has softened ground to return to whenever his foot feels better, but there you go.

 

[TJ]

Except for 3-1 versus 1-6. There's that pretty powerful argument. Kolb's one win was decided by...

It would be an exceptional and easy argument to make had Skelton gone in and played like Tom Brady replacing Drew Bledsoe for the Patriots, and making the quarterback the difference maker in the games. Instead, Skelton looked worse. The last two games speak for themselves.

Even yesterday, Mike Jurecki, Darren Urban and Kent Somers were all flaming on Skelton over twitter the entire game and basically calling for him to be benched before the half.

...wait for it...

... defensive turnovers and special teams play. A Patrick Peterson punt return was the difference in the Carolina game.

Right. However, guess what Kolb did in that game, which Skelton never accomplished in any of the games he's played thus far? Complete 67% of his passes and earn a QB rating of 130.

Skelton has yet to complete more than 57% of his passes and post a rating of over 90 in any one start.

Without Kolb's performance and PP21's return TD, we don't beat Carolina.

Kolb apologists like yourselft make much of a case for their boy asserting that Kolb can't possibly be worse than Skelton. That's wonderful and everything, but if they're equally awful, I'd rather have the guy making $415,000 than the guy making $10 million.

I dont apologize for anyone. But if I did, it'd be better than just hating every player and coach on the Cards and obsessing over all of its former members. Make sure you get Denny Green's, Karlos Danby's and Matt Leinart's addresses correct on their Holiday cards.

As for the contract situation: it is non-sequitur to this conversation. Regardless, the team still has to pony up that $10mil +/- for Kolb this season.

I was hoping John Skelton would live up to his potential and some of the Big Ben comparisons, but it never materialized.

 

[kerouac9]

It would be an exceptional and easy argument to make had Skelton gone in and played like Tom Brady replacing Drew Bledsoe for the Patriots, and making the quarterback the difference maker in the games. Instead, Skelton looked worse. The last two games speak for themselves.

Even yesterday, Mike Jurecki, Darren Urban and Kent Somers were all flaming on Skelton over twitter the entire game and basically calling for him to be benched before the half.

Right. However, guess what Kolb did in that game, which Skelton never accomplished in any of the games he's played thus far? Complete 67% of his passes and earn a QB rating of 130.

Skelton has yet to complete more than 57% of his passes and post a rating of over 90 in any one start.

Without Kolb's performance and PP21's return TD, we don't beat Carolina.


I dont apologize for anyone. But if I did, it'd be better than just hating every player and coach on the Cards and obsessing over all of its former members. Make sure you get Denny Green's, Karlos Danby's and Matt Leinart's addresses correct on their Holiday cards.

As for the contract situation: it is non-sequitur to this conversation. Regardless, the team still has to pony up that $10mil +/- for Kolb this season.

I was hoping John Skelton would live up to his potential and some of the Big Ben comparisons, but it never materialized.

Sweet personal attack there. Really well done. It's good that you and AZF are allowed to make personal attacks on people who merely state the reality that Kolb hasn't distinguished himself from John Skelton, second year player from the Patriot League, without warnings or repercussions from the moderators.

Some of us here just want to talk football.

I've been saying for two weeks that Kolb needs to come back when he's healthy and play. It seems to me that Kolb probably could've played yesterday, but Coach was satisfied that we (1) can win without him and (2) would be better served if he can come back at home (with some hogwash about "on grass"--whatever, Whis).

So Kolb "deserves" to start because of how he played three months ago, against the 26th ranked defense in the NFL? 31st in scoring?

When Kolb completes 10 of his 18 passes to TEs and RBs? That makes #7 Captain Checkdown but makes Kolb a savvy veteran-but-inexperinced-so-let's-give-him-more-time?

Good luck with that.

It's hilarious to me that Kolb's apologists can't make an affirmative case for Kolb based on his play on the field within even the last 12 months. It's worse than Cheese trying to explain to me that Derek Anderson is probably good because he lit up the scoreboard against 4 awful defenses two years before he was starting for us. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad that we hitched our wagon to this guy for the next 1.25 years.