Skkorp's Favorite 2004 Rook All Ready to Fail!!

[kerouac9]

Kerouac-

No, I'm not stoned.

That 3-1 record as a starter last year illustrates my point. 3-4 wins a year won't cut it in the NFL, he had THREE wins last year.

In those 5 games he appeared in last year, he ranked 50th among quarterbacks in passer rating. He also ranked 50th in completion percentage.

FIFTY-ITH. NUMBER 50. The big FIVE O. (there are only 32 teams right?)

Does a great arm and quick release do you any good if your accuracy is 50th among quarterbacks in the NFL?

I will agree with you on one point. Michael Vick WILL re-define the quarterback position in the NFL. Never again will an NFL franchise try to make a quarterback out of a wide receiver.

I don't care if he completes 25% of his passes. If he can take the 29th-ranked offense and 32nd-ranked defense and beat the eventual NFC Champion and defending Super Bowl chamption, you can play quarterback for my team any day.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kerouac-

No, I'm not stoned.

That 3-1 record as a starter last year illustrates my point. 3-4 wins a year won't cut it in the NFL, he had THREE wins last year.

In those 5 games he appeared in last year, he ranked 50th among quarterbacks in passer rating. He also ranked 50th in completion percentage.

FIFTY-ITH. NUMBER 50. The big FIVE O. (there are only 32 teams right?)

Does a great arm and quick release do you any good if your accuracy is 50th among quarterbacks in the NFL?

I will agree with you on one point. Michael Vick WILL re-define the quarterback position in the NFL. Never again will an NFL franchise try to make a quarterback out of a wide receiver.

Lex - I seem to remember someone blasting people when they sued a certain statistic to gauge how good a QB was - I think that person was defending a certain QB who played for the Cards years back - don't you think if you make an argument one way, you should probably stick to that argument.

Oh and considering that Pennington in his second season as a starter was out for half the season, does that too mean he's not a good QB - I mean, Vick didn't even get hit while running downfield - he was trying to avoid a SACK - you know - a play that happens in the backfield?

Vick is absolute stud who single-handedly carried that Falcons squad to the playoffs AND won a game there - where no one else EVER had. Does that not make him a winner - or the fact that he took a Va Tech team, that no one saw coming and brought them to the National Title game and again, almost signlehandedly kept them in that game? I mean, if anything up to this point - your boy Jake Plummer's career is almost a mirror image of Vick's - Both of them brought their respective teams to the brink of National Titles - establishing themselves as winners at the collegiate level. They both then went on to take their team to the playoffs in their second years - and win a road playoff game where NO ONE gave them any hope. In their second seasons as starters, both suffered injuries - from playing in the pocket - Plummer's finger, Vick's broken leg - and both had pretty horrendous passer ratings - although Vick did come back once fully healthy as to not hurt the team - even when Plummer refused to come out of games - thus hurting our team.

Are yous aying that Vick doesn't have that intangible that Plummer does - being a winner and leader as QB of the team? Are you saying that Plummer wasn't injury prone his third year in the league, just as Vick was last year and that both weren't hurt while in the backfield, rather than downfield, where most people expected their injuries to come from? And are disputing that there have been a decent of amount of running QBs who have matured over their years to be better passers over the course of their careers (Steve Young, John Elway, hell, even Mark Brunell and Jake Plummer - or Randall Cunningham)?

I just don't understand your animosity against a physical freak of nature who has won EVERYWHERE he's gone and electrified the league and college in doing so.

 

[Russ Smith]

I just don't understand your animosity against a physical freak of nature who has won EVERYWHERE he's gone and electrified the league and college in doing so.

I love to watch Vick play, but I have to admit deep down inside I do watch him and think "this guy would shatter records at RB". I don't agree with Lex he's not a WR, he's a RB, with a QB arm.

I think he can be great, he's not yet, but he really hasn't played that much, 2 years in college, 21 NFL starts.

But I have to admit that like it bugged me to watch Drew Henson try to play baseball, it at times bugs me to watch Vick learning to play QB when I'm convinced he could be the best RB in the NFL. but I understand why, longevity.

 

[kerouac9]

I love to watch Vick play, but I have to admit deep down inside I do watch him and think "this guy would shatter records at RB". I don't agree with Lex he's not a WR, he's a RB, with a QB arm.

I think he can be great, he's not yet, but he really hasn't played that much, 2 years in college, 21 NFL starts.

But I have to admit that like it bugged me to watch Drew Henson try to play baseball, it at times bugs me to watch Vick learning to play QB when I'm convinced he could be the best RB in the NFL. but I understand why, longevity.

If you've seen Vick throw, you understand that it's (1) longevity, and (2) a golden howitzer on his shoulder. Mike Vick just turned 24 in June.

Vick's most interesting stat is that 34 percent of his incompletions last season were labelled "poor throw" by Scouts, Inc. The number was 40% in 2002. Accuracy can be taught. Ask Carson Palmer or Kyle Boller. Mike Vick can make all the throws on a football field. All of them. His release is stellar. With a flick of the wrist, he can throw 40 yards across the field.

Once Vick understands the complexities and mechanics of his position, and before his physical skills start to decline (like between 26 and 29, maybe), we'll see a revolution of what the NFL thinks a quarterback is capable of.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you've seen Vick throw, you understand that it's (1) longevity, and (2) a golden howitzer on his shoulder. Mike Vick just turned 24 in June.

Vick's most interesting stat is that 34 percent of his incompletions last season were labelled "poor throw" by Scouts, Inc. The number was 40% in 2002. Accuracy can be taught. Ask Carson Palmer or Kyle Boller. Mike Vick can make all the throws on a football field. All of them. His release is stellar. With a flick of the wrist, he can throw 40 yards across the field.

Once Vick understands the complexities and mechanics of his position, and before his physical skills start to decline (like between 26 and 29, maybe), we'll see a revolution of what the NFL thinks a quarterback is capable of.

agreed, but I still can't shake the notion that he'd be a better Barry Sanders if he chose RB

 

[Lex]

Russ-

I'm thinking wideout for Vick because his body is too lean to be an effective NFL running back, but his running ability, and experience at quarterback would make him a great receiver.

 

[kerouac9]

agreed, but I still can't shake the notion that he'd be a better Barry Sanders if he chose RB

I don't think so. Look at the two:

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Vick's not stocky enough in the lower body to take the punishment that an RB, or even an option-offense QB, has to take to make a long-term impact in the NFL.

Bo Jackson was the same way:

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Mike's also too small to fight through the junk that great RBs have to do when going over the middle.

And his arm is too good to waste on maybe two passes a season. That's the difference between him and Kordell Stewart, a RB/WR who played quarterback:

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He was stocky enough below to take the beating, but lacked Vick's live arm.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ-

I'm thinking wideout for Vick because his body is too lean to be an effective NFL running back, but his running ability, and experience at quarterback would make him a great receiver.

He does have slender legs as K9 said, so does Portis.

Here's an aside question, where do people think Vick rates in terms of fastest NFL players? Let's say 100 yards for the field, I would guess top 10 for sure, maybe top 5.

I say RB because one of the things that makes him special is his ability to accelerate NOW, and do it from any angle in any direction. Sanders was like that too, he didn't need more than one step to noticeably speed up, Vick is like that too.

he does have a remarkably strong arm, but so did Joe Gilliam and Dan McGwire, what makes Vick's arm special is the quick release K9 mentions.

 

[Lex]

Beef-

I have no animosity toward Vick. I simply think he is the most overrated quarterback in the NFL.

Fun to watch? Absolutely. So is NASCAR, you could see a wreck.

Jake Plummer?

Do you REALLY want to fire up that conversation up again?

I always claimed Plummer was a top 5 quarterback in this league. YOU toasted me for it. While I'm not a "stat guy" per se, Jake did finish 5th in the NFL passer rating last year.

Remember Plummers targets? Boston, Sanders, Jenkins, Gilmore, and McAddley.

Peter King of Sports Illustrated, and The Sporting News, have Plummer picked as league MVP, and Super Bowl MVP this year.

Are you saying Mike Vick is JUST AS GOOD as Jake Plummer?

 

[Russ Smith]

I say with no animosity, Jake's QB rating in 3 preseason games is 30.9, and it's been going UP

Who did King pick for MVP last year? Hell I can't remember who I picked for MVP last year let alone who King did. I think professional writers all bank on that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Beef-

I have no animosity toward Vick. I simply think he is the most overrated quarterback in the NFL.

Fun to watch? Absolutely. So is NASCAR, you could see a wreck.

Jake Plummer?

Do you REALLY want to fire up that conversation up again?

I always claimed Plummer was a top 5 quarterback in this league. YOU toasted me for it. While I'm not a "stat guy" per se, Jake did finish 5th in the NFL passer rating last year.

Remember Plummers targets? Boston, Sanders, Jenkins, Gilmore, and McAddley.

Peter King of Sports Illustrated, and The Sporting News, have Plummer picked as league MVP, and Super Bowl MVP this year.

Are you saying Mike Vick is JUST AS GOOD as Jake Plummer?

Oh , so now that Plummer has a good Passer rating, NOW it's a stat that has use - what about all those years that Plummer had one of the WORST passer ratings and yet you would say that stats don't mean anything - yet you so easily flaunt that here in order to make your point. Be consistent man.

And am I saying that Vick is just as good as Plummer right now - no - I'm saying at this point in their careers Lex - Vick is at least as good as Plummer - just as successful and his TD to Turnover ratio is incredibly better - ah screwit - if you asked me right now who I'd want on my team at QB - not even counting potential, I'd take Vick over Plummer.

As far as listing who Plummer had to throw to - do you want to do the same for Vick - and even though you posted Plummer's guys for his last year, before that - he had Moore, Centers and Sanders - all of whom were were decent players - so you kind of lose out on that argument as well.

And let us not forget what the mighty Peter King has said - afterall - he was right on the money about CALVIN PACE being rookie of the year last year - in addition to naming Plummer MVP last year as well. King is a good writer - but as far as his prognastications - I know more about football than he does - did you see his QB list - that thing was a total joke.

We'll see what Plummer is truly made of this year - he exceeded expectations last year, but he also had one of the best RBs in the game (proven without Plummer being there) - one of the best TEs in the game (proven without Plummer being there) and a decent recieving core - now he has Garrison Hearst and an aging reciveing core - let's see what kind of magic he has now.

Oh yeah - and I forgot that Plummer played so well in his second playoff appearance - and was injured last year for a chunk of the season - so that's two separate seasons for this noodle-armed QB to have significant time missed due to injuries - I'm failing to see where Michael Vick is different at this stage in his career.

 

[kerouac9]

He does have slender legs as K9 said, so does Portis.

Here's an aside question, where do people think Vick rates in terms of fastest NFL players? Let's say 100 yards for the field, I would guess top 10 for sure, maybe top 5.

I say RB because one of the things that makes him special is his ability to accelerate NOW, and do it from any angle in any direction. Sanders was like that too, he didn't need more than one step to noticeably speed up, Vick is like that too.

he does have a remarkably strong arm, but so did Joe Gilliam and Dan McGwire, what makes Vick's arm special is the quick release K9 mentions.

I dunno, Russ. Portis:

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, Vick again:

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Vick does have incredible accelleration. I wonder who'd win a footrace between him and DeAngelo Hall. I think that Michael Bennett is acknowledged as the fastest player in the NFL. He has literally world-class sprinter speed.

Lex, Vick is easily twice the QB that Jake Plummer is. Quick: who were the Falcons starting wide-outs in 2002? Name two starters on their offensive line. Jake had two (maybe three) Hall of Famers at skill positions, the best O-line coach in NFL history, and a Top 10 defense backing him up, and honked in the playoffs, 41-10, with Jake throwing 2 picks (to future Cardinal David Macklin, no less) and fumbling once.

Jake faced no good defenses last season. This year, he faces the NFC South and AFC South. We'll see about Peter King's MVP prediction when he faces a couple teams that can protect the pass.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Peter King of Sports Illustrated, and The Sporting News, have Plummer picked as league MVP, and Super Bowl MVP this year.

so did my friend Jim Pack - what's your point - if I had bet them what I bet him - I'd have a lot of steak dinners coming my way.

 

[schel]

I love to watch Vick play, but I have to admit deep down inside I do watch him and think "this guy would shatter records at RB". I don't agree with Lex he's not a WR, he's a RB, with a QB arm.

I think he can be great, he's not yet, but he really hasn't played that much, 2 years in college, 21 NFL starts.

But I have to admit that like it bugged me to watch Drew Henson try to play baseball, it at times bugs me to watch Vick learning to play QB when I'm convinced he could be the best RB in the NFL. but I understand why, longevity.

I don't understand why you think Vick would be a good RB. What does Vick have that Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Jim Brown, etc didn't have? Even good RBs like Tomlinson or Bennett. Running around in the pocket and running after the handoff are 2 totally different skills. You say he could possibly shatter records just based on his speed? I just don't understand this. Put Barry Sanders as a QB and Vick wouldn't be 1/2 the QB Sanders would be if you're basing this on running RB just doesn't need to be fast obviously. Having the vision to run against multiple LBs and other defenders would be hard unless you have the experience at RB.

 

[schel]

Ok, so you mentioned acceleration. Though there are some fast RBs out there that won't even sniff records anytime soon.

 

[Gnomad]

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He was stocky enough below to take the beating, but lacked Vick's live arm.

ahhh... such a waste of athletic ability and game smarts... too bad kordell never went into a RB/WR position. he could have been something that didn't suck.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't understand why you think Vick would be a good RB. What does Vick have that Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Jim Brown, etc didn't have? Even good RBs like Tomlinson or Bennett. Running around in the pocket and running after the handoff are 2 totally different skills. You say he could possibly shatter records just based on his speed? I just don't understand this. Put Barry Sanders as a QB and Vick wouldn't be 1/2 the QB Sanders would be if you're basing this on running RB just doesn't need to be fast obviously. Having the vision to run against multiple LBs and other defenders would be hard unless you have the experience at RB.

Because of his acceleration and change of direction. and while K9 is right about his legs, his upper body is powerful.

It's hard to judge because obviously people defend running QB's differently than they do a RB because they know the RB isn't going to stop and throw the ball.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One simple question - that's all I ask for you Lex. Why is Plummer's passer rating - NOW - indicative of how good he is - rather than his rating before? Don't you see how inconsistent that is - especially when comparing it to a player coming back from injury late in the season, when in reality, in Vick's first full year as starter - without guys like Rob Moore, Frank Sanders or Larry Centers or David Boston - he was ble to put up a higher passer rating than ANY OTHER YEAR during Plummer's entire career.

Okay - maybe that's not ONE uestion - but it still has me baffled. There's more than just one season to lookat here - Lex. I know that by doing so, it destroys your argument, so I can see why you've got tunnel vision here.

 

[Russ Smith]

Ok, so you mentioned acceleration. Though there are some fast RBs out there that won't even sniff records anytime soon.

Fast is not acceleration, it's hard to put into words.

Have you seen Sebastian Telfair play basketball? There are better shooters, better leapers, quicker guys, but I don't know that I've ever seen a player who can change directions and accelerate again, with the ball, the way Telfair does.

That's what I see with Vick, he's going one way, changes his mind and in one step he's changed directions and is back near top end speed. A lot of speed runners (LeShon Johnson comes to mind) can't change directions. A lot of guys have to dramatically slow down to do it, Vick doesn't.

There's a certain element of it's easier to run against a pass defense, we see this with all RB's, but I firmly believe that if Vick had been converted to RB in college, he'd be an elite NFL RB right now with a chance to get records.

Can't necessarily put into words why.

 

[Skkorpion]

Michael Vick may be the best athlete to ever play offense in the NFL. As a QB, he's just not very good yet. He may become good, or he may not. It will be fun to watch it.

The most overrated aspect of a quarterback valuation is the "big arm". Who cares? Pennington probably has the least strongest arm of all NFL starters but he's in my top three QB wish list.

 

[BW52]

How many scrambling QB`s have won the super Bowl?

 

[Russ Smith]

How many scrambling QB`s have won the super Bowl?

Steve Young.

I tend to agree though, my take is always it's nice to have a guy who can run, but he has to be able to beat you from the pocket to be great.

 

[Lex]

Beef-

I find it hard to believe you have a friend as smart as Jim Pack, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[kerouac9]

The most overrated aspect of a quarterback valuation is the "big arm". Who cares? Pennington probably has the least strongest arm of all NFL starters but he's in my top three QB wish list.

You don't care until you want to throw a 20-yard out. It's a pass that McCairens and Moss can run, but Pennington can't complete. When you're forced to send your WRs over the middle every down because that's the only pass that your QB can throw, it shortens the life-span of your corps.

I agree that the "big arm" can be overrated. Boller being able to toss it between the uprights from his knees on the 50 is pretty meaningless. Vick being able to throw that pass with no windup is not.

Michael Vick has Dan Marino's arm mounted on Michael Bennett's body. Watch out when he gets his footwork straightened out and/or gets an NFL offensive line in front of him.

 

[BW52]

Steve Young.

I tend to agree though, my take is always it's nice to have a guy who can run, but he has to be able to beat you from the pocket to be great.

Hadn`t Steve Young by that point in his career become a pass first and run as last resort QB.A QB with great escapeability who relied on his arm more than his feet.

can Vick remain healthy enough and will he realize he helps the team by being available more than being sometimes special and unavailable.He doesn`t help a damn bit sitting on the bench in a cast.Ability doesn`t count for Crap when it can`t be used.