So does that harm Matt Patricia's HC chances?

[TRW]

Once he does something outside of New England, I'll happily concede. There are too many shenanigans surrounding that franchise to buy that it's all Tom Brady and not the machine they have in place. You put just about any starting QB in the same situation(Cassell) and I think you'd get similar results.

You bring up a good point in that he has been a constant but he hasn't been the only constant. And not the most important IMO.

Perhaps there is something that Tom Brady is contributing that I fail to recognize but I see too many wide open receivers, picked up blitzes, etc. that remain constant regardless of who all of the other players are. Brady doesn't have accuracy, anticipation, arm strength or other things that other QB's don't possess so for me, it's been more about the QB friendly environment that the Patriots have created.

LOL... Good one. Sorry but you just seem to be a hater. Brady has won with NUMEROUS changes and teammates. But, I do appreciate your opinion even though, as you say, we will never know.

 

[Russ Smith]

Once he does something outside of New England, I'll happily concede. There are too many shenanigans surrounding that franchise to buy that it's all Tom Brady and not the machine they have in place. You put just about any starting QB in the same situation(Cassell) and I think you'd get similar results.

You bring up a good point in that he has been a constant but he hasn't been the only constant. And not the most important IMO.

Perhaps there is something that Tom Brady is contributing that I fail to recognize but I see too many wide open receivers, picked up blitzes, etc. that remain constant regardless of who all of the other players are. Brady doesn't have accuracy, anticipation, arm strength or other things that other QB's don't possess so for me, it's been more about the QB friendly environment that the Patriots have created.

I think they clearly cheat, and I think you hear stuff like when Flutie was there and picked up Brady's spare helmet by mistake he realized the mic wasn't going off during plays and could hear the OC talking to Brady. But even that, you take the majority of Qb's in the NFL and let them have a guy in their ear in real time telling them who's open, most of them aren't good enough to do what Brady does.

He's just special.

I think the cheating is largely effective on defense, they have figured out how to steal signs, and then compare those signs for formations and figure out plays. Combine that with studying tendencies and it's how they manage to have someone in the right place so often. That has been less common in recent years because the NFL knew they were cheating and punished them. I'm sure they still cheat, but not nearly as effectively, everyone knows it now and changes signs etc.

That Brady continues his brilliance no matter who they have at WR and RB is remarkable to me.

I actually thought the Eagles should have onside kicked at the end there rather than kick the ball and let Brady win the game, I fully expected him to win the game from behind again.

 

[moklerman]

Did you honestly just say Brady does not have Accuracy???? Anticipation?? And yes his arm strength is not over the top but the guy has chucked it 60 yards in the air accurately many times over.... He huffed it 50 right where it needed to be in the end zone last night with a hand that isnt completely healthy and at 40 years old.... oh boy what a laugher...

Quite possibly the most lidicrous view point ever written on this forum....

Well, since that isn't what I said, I guess not. I said that he doesn't possess those things far superior to other QB's. Not to the extent that parallels how many SB's he's been in compared to others. Is he physically doing something that Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Alex Smith, etc. couldn't do?

Is he throwing screens or out patterns that much better than everyone else? Can he lob it up to Gronk better than others?

I'm not being flippant so please don't take it that way but, what does Tom Brady do so much better than other QB's that they just couldn't if they were in the same spot?

 

[moklerman]

I think they clearly cheat, and I think you hear stuff like when Flutie was there and picked up Brady's spare helmet by mistake he realized the mic wasn't going off during plays and could hear the OC talking to Brady. But even that, you take the majority of Qb's in the NFL and let them have a guy in their ear in real time telling them who's open, most of them aren't good enough to do what Brady does.

He's just special.

I think the cheating is largely effective on defense, they have figured out how to steal signs, and then compare those signs for formations and figure out plays. Combine that with studying tendencies and it's how they manage to have someone in the right place so often. That has been less common in recent years because the NFL knew they were cheating and punished them. I'm sure they still cheat, but not nearly as effectively, everyone knows it now and changes signs etc.

That Brady continues his brilliance no matter who they have at WR and RB is remarkable to me.

I actually thought the Eagles should have onside kicked at the end there rather than kick the ball and let Brady win the game, I fully expected him to win the game from behind again.

I'd forgotten about the Flutie thing but I disagree that it's insignificant because I don't think the benefit if post-snap. McVay and Goff proved(to me) this year just how beneficial the coach/QB communication can be and got me to wondering why more teams don't take advantage of it. The Rams made a habit of rushing to the line this year so that McVay/coaches could be communicating with Goff at the LOS and it made a big difference in identifying defenses and helping Goff decide where to go with the ball.

If a QB had the benefit of that all the time, I think it would be huge. And, as much as the Patriots seem to always know when a team is blitzing and from where, it's hard not to think that they haven't been playing with a stacked deck of some kind for years.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I do not think there is any way to debate the [Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts] vs. [Aaron Rogers, Dan Marino, Brett Farve] type quarterbacks and have a final way to prove one better than the other.

Same goes for Emmitt Smith vs. Barry Sanders

Same goes for Jerry Rice vs. Larry Fitzgerald

Same goes for Bill Parcels vs. Bill Belichek

Because it is impossible to know the unknown about the situations. What would Tom Brady do if he was on the Dolphins during Marino's time, what would Marino do as the Patriots QB.

What could Sanders have done behind the Cowboys offensive line, and what would Smith have done behind the Lions line ?

You never know, and each player has its pluses and minuses, Tom Brady's Lombardi's show greatness, but he has the team around him that can be counted again his personal skill, while Marino's skill was for everyone to see since he carried his team, but no Lombardi's is always used against him.

It is just as unfair to say Marino would have set untouchable records if he was in Brady's place, as it would to say if Brady was asked to carry a team he could not do it.

You just do not know. Both are great players, but hard to compare.

JMHO, and please continue your debate, but there is no end game there that I can see.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Nope.

 

[moklerman]

I do not think there is any way to debate the [Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts] vs. [Aaron Rogers, Dan Marino, Brett Farve] type quarterbacks and have a final way to prove one better than the other.

Same goes for Emmitt Smith vs. Barry Sanders

Same goes for Jerry Rice vs. Larry Fitzgerald

Same goes for Bill Parcels vs. Bill Belichek

Because it is impossible to know the unknown about the situations. What would Tom Brady do if he was on the Dolphins during Marino's time, what would Marino do as the Patriots QB.

What could Sanders have done behind the Cowboys offensive line, and what would Smith have done behind the Lions line ?

You never know, and each player has its pluses and minuses, Tom Brady's Lombardi's show greatness, but he has the team around him that can be counted again his personal skill, while Marino's skill was for everyone to see since he carried his team, but no Lombardi's is always used against him.

It is just as unfair to say Marino would have set untouchable records if he was in Brady's place, as it would to say if Brady was asked to carry a team he could not do it.

You just do not know. Both are great players, but hard to compare.

JMHO, and please continue your debate, but there is no end game there that I can see.

You're right that it's impossible to "know". In terms of the Marino question and with other guys from the past, I think something those guys deserve a lot of credit for that I think many current QB's couldn't do is take the beatings they took. To put up those numbers with the rules not favoring the offense like they do now warrants quite a bit of consideration.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd forgotten about the Flutie thing but I disagree that it's insignificant because I don't think the benefit if post-snap. McVay and Goff proved(to me) this year just how beneficial the coach/QB communication can be and got me to wondering why more teams don't take advantage of it. The Rams made a habit of rushing to the line this year so that McVay/coaches could be communicating with Goff at the LOS and it made a big difference in identifying defenses and helping Goff decide where to go with the ball.

If a QB had the benefit of that all the time, I think it would be huge. And, as much as the Patriots seem to always know when a team is blitzing and from where, it's hard not to think that they haven't been playing with a stacked deck of some kind for years.

Yes the blitz stuff would be huge, hey Tom there's a SS blitz from your left, in real time that's a huge advantage. But the NFL shut that off years ago unless the Pats have yet again figured out a way to talk to him during plays that the NFL can't detect, and the NFL is actively trying to detect that now so I doubt it.

I think for lots of QB's having a coach telling them during a play what's going on would be distracting, apparently Brady was able to deal with it and again I think that's because he's just unique.

I do think they cheat in general but I think the whole NFL cheats, the Pats were just cheating at another level, stealing signs, stealing play sheets from lockerrooms so brazenly that teams started putting fake play sheets in there to confound the pats. I forget which team it was but from a book I read one team did that and then notified the NFL, who then caught the Pats on tape calling out plays from the signs that were not the actual plays, but the plays on the fake play sheet, proving that the Pats had stolen the sheet and were using it during the game. That was a big part of why the Pats got in trouble, Bill actually admitted they were doing it but insisted they didn't use it in the same game, only in later games, and his understanding was that was not against the rules(it was and he clearly knew it). ONce the NFL had proof they were not only stealing, but using them in the same game, they threw the book at them.

I do think the benefit of cheating was seen far more on their defense than their offense, I can't obviously prove that, but that's my belief.

They were just better than anybody else at stealing signs and then using it to figure out tendencies. They would essentially bait you into things, they figured out if you see this formation on defense, you run this play, so they show you that formation, and then you run the exact play they want you to and they have a guy there to intercept the pass, that sort of thing. Everyone cheats but it's so systemic in the Pats and they had literally no line they wouldn't cross(until having been caught multiple times) that they were just better at it.

Anybody that has seen me on these boards over the years understands my obsession with cheating, Lance Armstrong, the steroid scandals in sports, the current stuff in college basketball etc. The Pats were pretty interesting because everyone knows they had cheated, and the NFL nailed them in 07, a super bowl loss to the Giants, and then the next 3 years were no playoffs, loss in wildcard game, and loss in divisional playoffs(having gone 14-2). So you had clear evidence they were cheating and winning at an amazing level, they got caught, and suddenly were not nearly as good, and yet since 2010 they have made 4 more Super Bowls and won 2 of them.

It's just IMO unprecedented in sports for a situation where cheating was playing a clear role in success, got caught, and yet the team was able to regroup and become dominant again. I can't think of a comparable example in any other sport.

 

[moklerman]

It's just IMO unprecedented in sports for a situation where cheating was playing a clear role in success, got caught, and yet the team was able to regroup and become dominant again. I can't think of a comparable example in any other sport.

At this point, wouldn't you say it's counterproductive for the league to pursue it/catch them? IMO, they have cheated and been accused of cheating so much that now people doubt the integrity of the game. Most are already sick of the Patriots being in the post season and there's so much to doubt, I really don't know how to feel about their success.

I mean, I hate it and realize I'm not completely objective about it but I do try and view things impartially. But what would it mean for the league if their greatest team ever is completely exposed as cheaters. That they were only winning because of it? I don't think the league can afford that.

 

[Russ Smith]

At this point, wouldn't you say it's counterproductive for the league to pursue it/catch them? IMO, they have cheated and been accused of cheating so much that now people doubt the integrity of the game. Most are already sick of the Patriots being in the post season and there's so much to doubt, I really don't know how to feel about their success.

I mean, I hate it and realize I'm not completely objective about it but I do try and view things impartially. But what would it mean for the league if their greatest team ever is completely exposed as cheaters. That they were only winning because of it? I don't think the league can afford that.

Oh I agree it does give the NFL a black eye but then at this point I think they're pretty clearly being watched closer than anybody else. Maybe the NFL is just afraid to go after them again but I doubt that is it.

 

[cardncubfan]

and the fact that thru gisele they have more money than what they know what to do with, and is content being the 19th highest paid QB in the league.

Imagine if TB wanted to be highest paid (as he should) - the Patriots would have 10-12 million less to work with.

14th but I get your point.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

 

[cardncubfan]

I would say TB12 stats are pretty average 50% of the time & the other 50% is top 10.


http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/careerstats

 

[Jetstream Green]

???

Not allowed to bring up Peterson's tackling now ?

Sorry, do not mean to be a problem, but I am in the belief if you say it you own it. Get tired of hearing about it ? Too bad, then you should not have said anything in the first place.

After last night's game, it is 100% acceptable for talking about the Patriots and those comparisons. I do not remember posters of ASFN asking for the Patriots to be, by far, the second most talked about team on this board, and the constant example of what the Cardinals do wrong by comparison's sake.

Anyone's points and opinion are up for debate on this board. If not, I ask the mods to post the truths that are not to be disputed on this board, please.

Watching the tackling, which by many on this board would deem poor, last night begs this to be talked about, and rightly so. Its been a HUGE topic on this board all season. Numerous Cardinals coaches, and players criticized and harshly for effort, and tackling.


Personally, I saw no problem with the effort and tackling of the Patriots. Blount is a 250lb back, and Ajayi is 220 lbs. Those are big backs, and they have a lot of weight on most defensive backs in the league. Its the pros, both sides are getting paid to play, and a 250lbs man running over a 180lbs is not an effort thing, it is a physics thing.

Sure, there are defensive backs that are good tacklers, but even "the best coach in the game" knows you have defensive backs out there for coverage purposes, and tackling second. That is the risk you take in the league, that is the chess match.

Matt Patricia can scream, and motivate, and intensify all he wants to, but Eric Rowe at 205lbs is in a really bad spot if L. Blount's 250lbs is coming at him full steam.

I understand that effort is something that fans like to see, and by effort that means taking on punishment to show "toughness", but again, you have to play smart. Ask Brandin Cooks about where effort for the chance at two or three extra yards, got him yesterday. #AndreEllington

This has been an ongoing talk, mainly because the constant, thorough Patriots comparisons made throughout the year, and here, in the biggest game we are seeing that maybe there was some hyperbole when making those comparisons. More than fair to talk about them today, since the Superbowl was yesterday.

Bill Belichek is a great coach, maybe the greatest, he has given his life to this game, and deserves his respect. But, he is just a football coach in the NFL with all the same challenges of other coaches. He doesn't walk on water.

Last night he got out coached, and his team was out executed. Still a great coach tho, it happens to the best of them. Only the hopelessly reactionary will be jumping off his bandwagon over last night.

But, maybe we can stop putting the Patriots a top the ivory tower and realize there are other great coaches out there, that can have success without copying everything the Patriots do.

As for what Patricia will do in Detroit ? We will see, it will be a different team, and it has yet to be seen if it will be done the Patriot way, or the Patricia way. But, I am pretty sure his team will tackle as well, or as poor as the rest of the teams in the NFL.



LOL, done, sorry J.Green to hijack your post.

My post was directed at Mitch's observation who I respect and enjoy his commentary, just to put in perspective how harshly Peterson has been judged by some according to his tackling or lack of which I do not see as a problem. Peterson is one of my favorite players and the Pat's where playing flag football in comparison on busted poor tackling which did not include Blount... you hijacked the wrong plane lol

 

[RugbyMuffin]

My post was directed at Mitch's observation who I respect and enjoy his commentary, just to put in perspective how harshly Peterson has been judged by some according to his tackling or lack of which I do not see as a problem. Peterson is one of my favorite players and the Pat's where playing flag football in comparison on busted poor tackling which did not include Blount... you hijacked the wrong plane lol

That makes sense.

My first statement was more or less, "Who told you we cannot bring up the topic of Peterson's tackling, who the hell are you apologizing to for bringing up something they stated ?"

Not so much directed at you, but the fact that there are "things we cannot discuss" or apologizing for bringing up a topic that someone initial made, which I find ridiculous.

As Mitch's observation on the Cardinal's captain, a finalist for the Walter Payton Man of the Year Patrick Peterson's tackling and overall play was one Mitch made, and made time and time again, and defended his stance vehemently. It was a shocking opinion that got a lot of attention. After the Superbowl, I do not think it is out of bounds to bring up the Patriots, their coaching, stubbornness of coaches, Malcom Butler, tackling, being out coached, etc. etc, let alone apologize for doing so. A lot of Cardinals fans have to endure some consistent bashing of the Cardinals on a Cardinals message board based on the comparisons to the Patriots, and it became personal at points as well. So, fair is fair, you do not want topics brought up, then do not bring them up, especially in shocking or abrasive ways.

Its a Cardinals message board, so there is going to be some pride about the team. Thus if you want to poke a that pride to get a reaction, do not be shocked when you get it. JMHO of course.

The whole talk about Blount was just an example that in the NFL this "effort" talk is pretty much unwarranted most of the time. A 180lbs man having trouble tackling a 250lbs man (see Superbowl as the example) is physics not effort. Patrick Peterson, along with MANY other DBs are going to have issues tackling a 250lbs man.

I should also say, the Patriots are a great organization and deserve respect. They didn't come out on top this year, but they are a great organization. Yet, they do not walk on water, and as the Eagles showed, there is always someone ready to humble you in the NFL.

All good man, bring up any topic you want, IMHO.

 

[Dback Jon]

14th but I get your point.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

Cap Hit he's tied for 18th in 2017

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2017/cap-hit/quarterback/