So Seriously, What is going on ?

[DaisyCutter]

It'll be Shipp no doubt in my mind. Shipp will save 1.75 against the cap, Arrington will save none (or cost some). Also Shipp is more like Edge, Arrington is more of a 3rd down, catch out of the backfield, speed guy. Edge and Shipp aren't.

Maybe, but Graves made a big financial commitment to Shipp, and the coaches seem to love him. Graves probably gave him a deal worth 3X his open-market value last year.

But the thing that complicates it is that Shipp is a much better special teams player.

It'll be interesting to see who Whis keeps or cuts. Neither one figured prominently in our offense last year and it could be he will just make a clean sweep and look to the draft for help.

Shipp is a terrible special teams player. Every time a punt was blocked, it was Shipp's man that got through. He never makes plays on return units.

 

[HookemCards]

Maybe, but Graves made a big financial commitment to Shipp, and the coaches seem to love him. Graves probably gave him a deal worth 3X his open-market value last year.



Shipp is a terrible special teams player. Every time a punt was blocked, it was Shipp's man that got through. He never makes plays on return units.

Obviously you could be right. But it would be a huge mistake to pay him anything over the vet min. How many carries did he have last year 15? 20? Plus allowed to punt blocks? The fact that he is still on the roster tells me you could be right, I think he should be gone though.

 

[john h]

I am willing to bet that between now and the draft - the Cardinals (and several other teams) bring in a bunch (i.e four or five) of veterans at 2 year vet minimum contracts with minimal (if any) signing bonuses

Free agency has been open long enough that guys are starting to fret for jobs.

No one really knows just how good or bad a FA will be not matter if he is considered high quality or low qulaity. When you move a player to a new team and new coach with new players playing beside him he often can turn completely around. He can go from all bust to all pro. Or he can go from all pro to all bust. We need to get lucky and also have a sharp eye who will fit in our system. We still could end up with a couple of good FA's. If we can get a starter in the draft it will help. Guys most likely to help you in the draft are going to be RB's. They can make an instant impact as they come ready to play at the NFL level. Be the end of one season they are probably as good as they are going to get. Let us hope we pick a good one as we need immediate help at the all important RB position as Whiz wants to run half the time. As of now we have one older RB and two guys that are barely 3rd line RB's who probably should be cut. We have seen them long enough to know what they are going to produce. Most NFL teams are going to Two RBs of equal quality and are interchangeable. We really need two RB's this year. One in the upper round and one in the lower round.

 

[SuperSpck]

No one really knows just how good or bad a FA will be not matter if he is considered high quality or low qulaity. When you move a player to a new team and new coach with new players playing beside him he often can turn completely around. He can go from all bust to all pro. Or he can go from all pro to all bust. We need to get lucky and also have a sharp eye who will fit in our system.

That's the meat, find a guy who will work well within the scheme a young coach is trying to establish.

 

[40yearfan]

Maybe, but Graves made a big financial commitment to Shipp, and the coaches seem to love him. Graves probably gave him a deal worth 3X his open-market value last year.



Shipp is a terrible special teams player. Every time a punt was blocked, it was Shipp's man that got through. He never makes plays on return units.

DC, you must not have been at the same games I was at and I went to all 8 home games. Shipp was always around the ball on kick offs and punts and had no problem going into the wedge to break it up. He had 8 solo tackles and they all came on special teams.

 

[joeshmo]

He had 8 solo tackles and they all came on special teams.

8 special teams tackles are easily replaced. He was always near the football, running right by the ball carrier though, and completely stunk as a blocker in the return games.

8 tackles, less then 20 touches, and liability in the return game for 1.75 Mill.? The most overpaid underproductive player on the roster.

 

[40yearfan]

8 special teams tackles are easily replaced. He was always near the football, running right by the ball carrier though, and completely stunk as a blocker in the return games.

8 tackles, less then 20 touches, and liability in the return game for 1.75 Mill.? The most overpaid underproductive player on the roster.

Really? Name two players on the Cards who played special teams only that had 8 solo tackles or more. Playing special teams is an art and that's why you have players like Shipp and Hodell who specialize in doing so. Shipp is a hustler. To minimize his accomplishments on special teams is just plain silly regardless of what his salary is. He was asked to do a job and he did it and did it well.

 

[Pariah]

Really? Name two players on the Cards who played special teams only that had 8 solo tackles or more.

I give up...is Rackrs one of them?

 

[joeshmo]

Really? Name two players on the Cards who played special teams only that had 8 solo tackles or more. Playing special teams is an art and that's why you have players like Shipp and Hodell who specialize in doing so. Shipp is a hustler. To minimize his accomplishments on special teams is just plain silly regardless of what his salary is. He was asked to do a job and he did it and did it well.

Beisel and Morey. What does just playing special teams have to do with it by the way. That only proves just how replacable he really is.

You keep talking about 8 tackles as some sort of a good mark to get to for a special teamer.

What accomplishments? 8 solo special teams tackles is not an accomplishment. Michael Adams had 7 of his own, Fransisco had 6 only playing half the season. He was 3rd on the team in special teams tackles total, not something to brag about or try to make into some sort of accomplishment. 8 solo special teams tackles are replaceable by any number of players in the NFL or the draft If Adams can get 7 then Shipp and his 8 are easily replaceable. (all according to the Cards main site PDF stats) According to stats inc there are 40 players with 11 total or more special teams sacks. They have Shipp @ 10 total. Note an accomplishment in even the slightest.

 

[40yearfan]

Beisel and Morey. What does just playing special teams have to do with it by the way. That only proves just how replacable he really is.

You keep talking about 8 tackles as some sort of a good mark to get to for a special teamer.

What accomplishments? 8 solo special teams tackles is not an accomplishment. Michael Adams had 7 of his own, Fransisco had 6 only playing half the season. He was 3rd on the team in special teams tackles total, not something to brag about or try to make into some sort of accomplishment. 8 solo special teams tackles are replaceable by any number of players in the NFL or the draft If Adams can get 7 then Shipp and his 8 are easily replaceable. (all according to the Cards main site PDF stats) According to stats inc there are 40 players with 11 total or more special teams sacks. They have Shipp @ 10 total. Note an accomplishment in even the slightest.

So in your words, Morey and Beisel are duds as special teams players because they could only manage the same amount of tackles as Shipp. BTW, I've looked on the Cards web-site and cannot find where they break Beisels stats down by special teams. How about a link?

The problem with only looking at the stats is that you can't know what kind of pressure the guy is getting and the havoc he is creating by looking at a bunch of numbers. As I said, I was at all 8 home games last year and was very impressed by Shipp's playing on the special teams. By not having to rely on the TV set, you can see the whole field of play and don't have just the actual tackle to watch as you do on TV. And regardless of how you feel about it 8 SOLO tackles in the open field is quite an accomplishment on special teams and something Shipp should be commended for.

 

[joeshmo]

So in your words, Morey and Beisel are duds as special teams players because they could only manage the same amount of tackles as Shipp.

Where did I say they only got 8 tackles each. You asked for 8 or more special teams tackles did you not? Beisel got 21 and Morey got 17.

http://www.azcardinals.com/nm_files/12-30vsstl.pdf

Thats with one game to go so I added one more to Shipps 7 solo tackles on that web site just in case he got one in the last game. Edit - Shipp did not get a tackle in the last game of the season so he only ended up with 7 solo tackles.

The problem with only looking at the stats is that you can't know what kind of pressure the guy is getting and the havoc he is creating by looking at a bunch of numbers. As I said, I was at all 8 home games last year and was very impressed by Shipp's playing on the special teams. By not having to rely on the TV set, you can see the whole field of play and don't have just the actual tackle to watch as you do on TV. And regardless of how you feel about it 8 SOLO tackles in the open field is quite an accomplishment on special teams and something Shipp should be commended for.

I was at 5 games myself and color me not impressed at all. He either got destroyed by a blocker, ran right past the ball carrier because he has no agility to change directions except for spin moves, or has no speed to make a difference. His wedge busting abilities was highly overrated as was this wrecking havoc especially considering our special teams coverage units were below average. And your impression of the TV coverage is falt ou wrong it gives you much better look at special teams play considering 99% of the time a special teams play is shot using a wide angle so you can see the whole field more so with the Fox coverage then the CBS coverage, with the ability to pause and rewind.

If 8 tackles is an accomplishment and something a player should be commended for then your standards are about as low as they come and you think that a lot of other scrubs in the NFL should be commended as well.

 

[Duckjake]

40 I like Shipp as much as anybody but the NFL is a young man's league. Marcel will be 30 in August. Time to move on.

 

[40yearfan]

40 I like Shipp as much as anybody but the NFL is a young man's league. Marcel will be 30 in August. Time to move on.

DJ this has nothing to do with this year. Shipp played well on special teams last year and to insuniate that he didn't is asinine. At least give him his due. You don't have to tear down a player and change history just because you think he is no longer of any value to a team.

With fans as fickle as this, it's no wonder the players no longer feel any allegiance to a team or it's fans.

 

[40yearfan]

Where did I say they only got 8 tackles each. You asked for 8 or more special teams tackles did you not? Beisel got 21 and Morey got 17.

http://www.azcardinals.com/nm_files/12-30vsstl.pdf

Thats with one game to go so I added one more to Shipps 7 solo tackles on that web site just in case he got one in the last game. Edit - Shipp did not get a tackle in the last game of the season so he only ended up with 7 solo tackles.



I was at 5 games myself and color me not impressed at all. He either got destroyed by a blocker, ran right past the ball carrier because he has no agility to change directions except for spin moves, or has no speed to make a difference. His wedge busting abilities was highly overrated as was this wrecking havoc especially considering our special teams coverage units were below average. And your impression of the TV coverage is falt ou wrong it gives you much better look at special teams play considering 99% of the time a special teams play is shot using a wide angle so you can see the whole field more so with the Fox coverage then the CBS coverage, with the ability to pause and rewind.

If 8 tackles is an accomplishment and something a player should be commended for then your standards are about as low as they come and you think that a lot of other scrubs in the NFL should be commended as well.

Well then it's obvious you were at different games than I was. Shipp was one of the better special teams players last year and I'll be willing to bet that the coaching staff feels the same way I do.

BTW, I got my stats off of NFL and they showed Shipp with 8 tackles total, all 8 of them were solo tackles.

http://www.nfl.com/players/marcelshipp/careerstats?id=SHI461748

 

[DaisyCutter]

Well then it's obvious you were at different games than I was. Shipp was one of the better special teams players last year and I'll be willing to bet that the coaching staff feels the same way I do.

BTW, I got my stats off of NFL and they showed Shipp with 8 tackles total, all 8 of them were solo tackles.

http://www.nfl.com/players/marcelshipp/careerstats?id=SHI461748

So where does letting blockers on the punt unit through twice? I mean, the every-other-game special team tackle doesn't really discount the two times he allowed the punt to go backward, does it?

 

[joeshmo]

Well then it's obvious you were at different games than I was. Shipp was one of the better special teams players last year and I'll be willing to bet that the coaching staff feels the same way I do.

BTW, I got my stats off of NFL and they showed Shipp with 8 tackles total, all 8 of them were solo tackles.

http://www.nfl.com/players/marcelshipp/careerstats?id=SHI461748

Considering tackles isnt an offical stat yet (which is odd) each site will have their own amounts but are only usually off by 1 or 2 between them.

 

[SuperSpck]

Considering tackles isnt an offical stat yet (which is odd) each site will have their own amounts but are only usually off by 1 or 2 between them.

That's some serious hair splitting you guys are involved in.

I think I agree with Joe's point. Marcel Shipp's value to the team is low because his salary is greater than any potential for production he provides.
The team may look to replace him with a more efficient model (in the eyes of the league and from the wings of players, Marcel is more commodity than man).

Does it suck? You bet. Is it fair? Not remotely. Will the team ditch him if a camp body outplays him? Certainly.

 

[Duckjake]

DJ this has nothing to do with this year. Shipp played well on special teams last year and to insuniate that he didn't is asinine. At least give him his due. You don't have to tear down a player and change history just because you think he is no longer of any value to a team.

With fans as fickle as this, it's no wonder the players no longer feel any allegiance to a team or it's fans.

Considering that the entire Shipp thing started with a statement concerning who would be more likely to get cut, Shipp or JJ, I would say it is about this year.

 

[40yearfan]

Considering that the entire Shipp thing started with a statement concerning who would be more likely to get cut, Shipp or JJ, I would say it is about this year.

Nope. Whatever Whis decides to do with Shipp and JJ this year is his business and I'll accept his decision with nary a whimper. If Shipp gets cut, I'll hate to see him go, not because of his talent or lack there of, but because he has giving everything he has in him every time he has stepped on the field. Shipp is one of those players like Larry Centers or Ron Wolfley. Not the most talented, but willing to lay everything on the line and do anything this team asks them to do. I appreciate that and appreciate his time here.

I was at the dome in Flagstaff when Shipp broke his leg and I was close enough to hear his screams. How that man managed to come back from that injury is an amazing story. Detemination and grit. A lesser man would have given up and quit football. He'll always have my admiration for what he went through and still managed to come back from.

 

[Duckjake]

Nope. Whatever Whis decides to do with Shipp and JJ this year is his business and I'll accept his decision with nary a whimper. If Shipp gets cut, I'll hate to see him go, not because of his talent or lack there of, but because he has giving everything he has in him every time he has stepped on the field. Shipp is one of those players like Larry Centers or Ron Wolfley. Not the most talented, but willing to lay everything on the line and do anything this team asks them to do. I appreciate that and appreciate his time here.

I was at the dome in Flagstaff when Shipp broke his leg and I was close enough to hear his screams. How that man managed to come back from that injury is an amazing story. Detemination and grit. A lesser man would have given up and quit football. He'll always have my admiration for what he went through and still managed to come back from.

Like I said, I like Shipp as much as anybody, but he's a RB who has been in the league for 8 seasons and will soon be 30. The NFL doesn't care what you've done in the past. When you get old or start to wear down they let you go. Sad but its the truth.