Sonicsgate: How Stern stole the Sonics

[chickenhead]

I think the Glandale situation is very different because it played into the competition between Valley municipalities. They stepped up after the east Valley project failed, and personally, I still don't think it was a good thing because the Coyotes are not a big enough tenant to justify a building that faces competition from several other buildings. If they stick around and build wider support, I'll eat my words to an extent--but the fact that the Avalanche with their 2 Cups averaged 13k this year doesn't make me all that confident in Phoenix as strong hockey market for the long haul.

The other thing is that both the Cardinals and Coyotes had failed building plans prior to their new homes. Meanwhile Seattle had just funded BOTH a baseball and football stadium prior to the Sonics' demands (and fans actually like Key Arena). Three funded stadiums in a decade is pretty ridiculous, and the NBA unfortunately lost out. Now the Sounders are reaping what the NBA conceded.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

the sounders have been a giant success and they in a way were part of the reason why qwest field passed

a football stadium wasn't going to cut it so the venue had to be compatible to professional soccer, world cup & international soccer, contain public arts and public space as well as offer convention space

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Please learn what you're talking about.

That's not fair.

They renovated the entire building during 1994 and 1995 for a cost of $95M ($75M from the city of seattle). In 1996 it reopened to much praise (even from Stern).

By 2000 there were cries that it was outdated and that they needed a new stadium or a remodel.

Between the time the renovated Key opened and Bennett grabbed control the team over $800M in public money was spent on new stadiums for the seahawks/ms

The economy up there was very sluggish and there really weren't any good proposals - especially considering that many were upset that they just spent close to $100M on a building that couldn't even last a decade ..... now they want $220M with no guarantees the same song and dance wouldn't happen in another 10 years.

However, stern made it clear that renovating the Key wouldn't work anyhow



So that was pretty much a waste of time ..... there were talks about building new arenas but clay always had a reason why it wouldn't work and they never got off the ground.

It was the perfect mix of bad timing, political backlash, a stubborn legislature and most importantly bad ownership (from shultz to bennett) ...... bennett did everything in his power to get out .... his sole purpose in buying the team was to move them and with that known and proven context it's hard to say that they had much of a chance to get anything done once they came on board

it's this type of "vision" that hurts the NBA and has hurt the NHL with their expansion ..... ownership is the most important aspect in professional sports .... the seattle wasn't a failing basketball city - they had 40 years of great history ...... just some clowns got involved

it was similar with the seahawks when it went from the nordstroms to behring and eventually to paul allen ... behring almost killed that franchise before it was saved by allen

They did reject proposals. Nothing I said wasn't factual.

I know you are emotional about the Sonics, and you have every right to be. Please don't claim that I don't know what I am talking about when I stated facts.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

DCR you know you're my hero and deity, but I'm not sure what you mean with the comparison to the Coyotes? We built the Coyotes a state of the art Arena and their owners ran them into financial ruin. It's pretty well documented that when the Coyotes are competitive their attendance is good.

I guess I just dont get what you meant. Seattle voters pretty much refused to support the team with a stadium initiative, whereas Glendale built a brand new 200million dollar arena for a team that couldn't make the playoffs. I'm actually going to be pretty ticked if they leave.

The Coyotes don't directly relate because they did build a state of the art facility; loosely based analogy. However, the city just hasn't responded to the team. Maybe that will change with this year's run. I hope it does. If people decide that hockey can't survive for whatever reason in the desert, then I'll live with it. That's all.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

That's not fair.



They did reject proposals. Nothing I said wasn't factual.

I know you are emotional about the Sonics, and you have every right to be. Please don't claim that I don't know what I am talking about when I stated facts.

the voters really didn't get to say too much - they never really saw a viable option because the ownership wasn't too keen on doing it

they did provide over $70M in public funding to the sonics

the main thing that was put through was an ordinace that would prevent public funding - basically they required a certain guaranteed rate of return on any investment in things like sports buildings .... it's impossible to make such a guarantee (i think it was something like 4%)

offering to make a $15M investment if you put up $220M on something that carries no guarantees of being a fix really isn't an option

there were plenty of proposals that were killed by clay at his desk

there were proposals for renovating Key that were killed because stern said that renovation wouldn't be adequete

your knowledge is very naive and surface level at best ..... i can craft a proposal for something you really want and do it in a way that you'll never accept .... it doesn't mean you don't want it, it just means there is a bad deal on the table

did the cards deserve to lose their team because a couple proposals failed? - is phoenix not a viable market for them? - do the fans not exist?

 

[Gaddabout]

It's hard for me to imagine the NBA wanted to be in OKC over Seattle because Seattle-Tacoma is No. 13 TV market vs. OKC which is 45. That right there costs the NBA a little and that franchise a lot. OKC will eventually sink because they won't be able to raise the capital to stay competitive. That's just reality. Give it 10 years.

I also imagine Seattle will get another team for that very reason. I'm guessing it would be Golden State, even though they probably have the most dedicated fanbase on the planet (and a Top 5 TV market), because they've been trying to get a new stadium for years. Just haven't had any place to go. San Diego won't work because the LA teams have that TV market on lockdown (and San Diego has never really supported basketball). It's also why the NBA would never allow the Suns to move there. Vegas would be the next best longshot if the Suns were ever up for moving, but I can guarantee it will never be San Diego.

I wouldn't worry about the Suns moving. They have a good stadium deal. The only thing hurting all the pro teams right now is the depressed economy and the relatively longer time it's going to take for Phoenix to recover vs. the rest of the country. It's completely waffled. But the Suns have a good enough deal to ride it out over the next couple of years.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

locally the closest similiarity you could make (although still far from perfect) would be the suns demanding a new building in 5 years saying that the recent renovations are not adequete and they can no longer compete in such a building

what put a lot of people in seattle on edge is they just put out a lot of public money and then there was a demand for more with little commitment (financially or otherwise) from the team

 

[Gaddabout]

what put a lot of people in seattle on edge is they just put out a lot of public money and then there was a demand for more with little commitment (financially or otherwise) from the team

And I can guarantee you this voting populace would give the finger to Sarver if he ever tried that here. Don't even bother to put it on a ballot. Especially if we're still experiencing anything like the current political climate.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

the voters really didn't get to say too much - they never really saw a viable option because the ownership wasn't too keen on doing it

they did provide over $70M in public funding to the sonics

the main thing that was put through was an ordinace that would prevent public funding - basically they required a certain guaranteed rate of return on any investment in things like sports buildings .... it's impossible to make such a guarantee (i think it was something like 4%)

offering to make a $15M investment if you put up $220M on something that carries no guarantees of being a fix really isn't an option

there were plenty of proposals that were killed by clay at his desk

there were proposals for renovating Key that were killed because stern said that renovation wouldn't be adequete

your knowledge is very naive and surface level at best ..... i can craft a proposal for something you really want and do it in a way that you'll never accept .... it doesn't mean you don't want it, it just means there is a bad deal on the table

did the cards deserve to lose their team because a couple proposals failed? - is phoenix not a viable market for them? - do the fans not exist?

Funny you mentioned the Cards, because before the stadium, I would have said yes. Lack of support from the fans and lack of a desirable stadium to play in.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

and the major difference would be that the cardinals didn't have 40 years of good fan support in that market

also an honest question because I was just a little tike in upstate NY when the move happened, but did they pay (or did the public pay) any money to renovate SDS for them or were they just working out the details on a lease/revenue basis with the university?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

give the finger to Sarver

do you think they would of given him the finger if he asked in the first place instead of colangelo?

do you think colangelo could have more success in future stadium enhancements / politics?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

and the major difference would be that the cardinals didn't have 40 years of good fan support in that market

also an honest question because I was just a little tike in upstate NY when the move happened, but did they pay (or did the public pay) any money to renovate SDS for them or were they just working out the details on a lease/revenue basis with the university?

No public money that I could remember. In fact, they couldn't even get full revenue of the concession sales from their games.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

do you think they would of given him the finger if he asked in the first place instead of colangelo?

do you think colangelo could have more success in future stadium enhancements / politics?

Colangelo would have gotten it done, like he did in 2003 I think it was. 20% public financing.

 

[chickenhead]

Here's what the NBA got out of all of this:

A new building built with public funds in OKC, and a market which it basically owns now. An open market in Seattle that wants a team back, and based on the evidence for most major markets that have lost teams, will build a new arena to get one (and potentially pay an expansion fee--much larger the second time around). It is potentially a major safety valve for the NBA with other struggling franchises, and prior to any relocation can be used by the league to pressure other markets to build new arenas themselves. The idea for the pro leagues is X number of teams and X+1 or X+2 viable markets that want teams. Always.

 

[Gaddabout]

do you think they would of given him the finger if he asked in the first place instead of colangelo?

do you think colangelo could have more success in future stadium enhancements / politics?

No one else but Colangelo could get it done in this environment, but he would have a much rougher go of it this time around. At his age, I doubt he would have been willing to risk the redemption of his legacy since he made the transition from reviled GM of the Dial-owned Suns to managing partner and NBA royalty.

 

[Bert]

Funny you mentioned the Cards, because before the stadium, I would have said yes. Lack of support from the fans and lack of a desirable stadium to play in.

Yep people forget about that when they bash the Bidwills. I was always impressed at the patience they showed because it was assumed when BB brought the team here that we'd build them a new stadium. I remember atleast 3 initiatives for Domes and other such buildings being defeated in the late 80's and early 90's. The Cardinals were a laughing stock for a long time (and not just because we sucked) because we were the only NFL team without our own stadium.

Gotta give the Bidwills credit for sticking it out because there was a vote, I think in 94 or 95 that got defeated and I really thought they were going to bail on AZ, but they stuck it out.

I wouldn't have blamed them if they had, but I'm so glad they didn't. Thats why I was so happy when the Stadium finally got built, I didn't have to worry about losing My Cardinals for 20 years or so.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was always impressed at the patience they showed because it was assumed when BB brought the team here that we'd build them a new stadium.

I don't think it was just assumed. I'm pretty sure it was flat out promised to them as part of the relocation agreement.

Steve

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yep people forget about that when they bash the Bidwills. I was always impressed at the patience they showed because it was assumed when BB brought the team here that we'd build them a new stadium. I remember atleast 3 initiatives for Domes and other such buildings being defeated in the late 80's and early 90's. The Cardinals were a laughing stock for a long time (and not just because we sucked) because we were the only NFL team without our own stadium.

Gotta give the Bidwills credit for sticking it out because there was a vote, I think in 94 or 95 that got defeated and I really thought they were going to bail on AZ, but they stuck it out.

I wouldn't have blamed them if they had, but I'm so glad they didn't. Thats why I was so happy when the Stadium finally got built, I didn't have to worry about losing My Cardinals for 20 years or so.

Exactly.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

That's because they're all too jazzed up on caffeine to follow any conversation coherently.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't think it was just assumed. I'm pretty sure it was flat out promised to them as part of the relocation agreement.

Steve

You are correct. The group that convinced the Cardinals to move assured the team that Phoenix/Arizona would build a new stadium for the team. But Billy Bowtie did not get that assurance in writing because, as history will show, he is not an astute businessman.

Once the group that convinced the Cardinals to move to Arizona were out of office or had lost influence (Keating was one of the individuals) the new political establishment no longer had to keep the promise and the Cardinals had a few years of terrible football under their belt and had failed to take the necessary steps to build a winner.

It's actually quite crazy to see the difference in the team and the perception from the public. I was staying in Phoenix during the Super Bowl run and I've never seen any sports team that was more popular. The Diamondbacks World Series run and the 1993 Suns paled in comparison to the popularity of the 2008-2009 Arizona Cardinals.

(Sorry for the sidetrack....)

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's actually quite crazy to see the difference in the team and the perception from the public. I was staying in Phoenix during the Super Bowl run and I've never seen any sports team that was more popular. The Diamondbacks World Series run and the 1993 Suns paled in comparison to the popularity of the 2008-2009 Arizona Cardinals.

The Suns have always been popular in the Valley but most of the time it was a dearth of options rather than a choice. I wasn't in the area during the Super Bowl run but I know that, during Kush's time at ASU, football dominated the public interest so I wasn't surprised at the attention the Cards finally received. I just wish it could have come a decade earlier so we wouldn't have had to live with the 10 years that preceded Whis.

Steve

 

[btimsah]

10 bucks says that IF Seattle gets another team, it'll be because they "steal it" from someone else. That's a huge IF.

 

[Tyler]

10 bucks says that IF Seattle gets another team, it'll be because they "steal it" from someone else. That's a huge IF.

Could you see the Clippers leaving LA?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

10 bucks says that IF Seattle gets another team, it'll be because they "steal it" from someone else. That's a huge IF.

and most of us sonics fans don't want a relocated team - especially if it was one from a market that has been established and successful for 40 years

 

[chickenhead]

The Clippers won't move as long as Sterling owns them. Maybe a new owner moves them to another market, but then, maybe a new owner just makes more of them in the LA region.

As far as the Suns vs. Cards popularity goes, it's just generally hard to go against football. It's once a week, so a lot of casual fans are drawn more to it. Especially in the playoffs, when being fully engaged in a Super Bowl run is only 3-4 games. We're already in game 7 of the Suns playoffs run and it's just the start of the second round. But a lot of fans have wanted a Suns championship longer than anything else. Of my friends who grew up in the Valley, it's what we most want to see someday. [But the Cards have certainly made it interesting.]

I hope Seattle gets another team, but were I a Sonics fan I wouldn't feel great about grabbing another established market's team either. The vacant markets always have some fans that troll the internet boards of teams in danger, but on the whole, people who've lost a team are better than that.