Spurs@Suns game thread

[Errntknght]

Any game we don't get worse treatment than this from the refs against the Spurs, I'm happy. Heck, Flopponobli didn't rewarded for one ridiculous dive. They didn't automatically give Parker a call on every drive.

I thought Andre Barrett easily looked like he's worth another 10 day contract. He's very quick and shoots pretty well to midrange with a decent bball IQ. It looks like he could be a pesky defender and he'll need to be because he's very small... under 5'10 I'd say.

Pat Burke looked good again, rebounding with some vigor and scoring against Duncan. But he nullified his best rebound by trying to dribble the ball and having it stolen by Manu. And he spoiled the whole stint by dogging it up the floor and letting Duncan waltz down the lane for a layup - he was aware of what he was doing as he pointed to Duncan trying to get a teammate to pick him up. D'A promptly sat his lazy butt down for that. Burke is really starting to tick me off... if he'd get himself into shape and play hard he could contribute to this team.

 

[elindholm]

Once again, calls calls calls...Shouldn't we talk basketball? Calls aren't the reason why Phx lost. They have very capable players and talent for days. They didn't defend last night. Barry, Parker and Manu had wide open shots all night long. That was the ball game. Phx NEVER has problems scorin'. They are explosive. They failed to STOP anyone last night. period. It was a game in which they could've made a better showin' even without their general. If I were you I'd be disappointed.

For God's sake, why is anyone arguing with this troll? The Suns played like crap and got their asses kicked. End of story. If he wants to talk trash, let him. It was a crappy game and it's time to move on.

 

[boisesuns]

For God's sake, why is anyone arguing with this troll? The Suns played like crap and got their asses kicked. End of story. If he wants to talk trash, let him. It was a crappy game and it's time to move on.

I wonder if the troll status needs to be raised?

 

[jandaman]

This game doesnt really mean much, the Spurs are obviously the better team at this point, now you take away Nash from the Suns and you get a bunch of "good" and "potentially" good players that doesnt have a floor general. Sounds like the Knicks.

 

[Chaplin]

Pat Burke looked good again, rebounding with some vigor and scoring against Duncan. But he nullified his best rebound by trying to dribble the ball and having it stolen by Manu. And he spoiled the whole stint by dogging it up the floor and letting Duncan waltz down the lane for a layup - he was aware of what he was doing as he pointed to Duncan trying to get a teammate to pick him up. D'A promptly sat his lazy butt down for that. Burke is really starting to tick me off... if he'd get himself into shape and play hard he could contribute to this team.

To be fair, Burke's man was NOT Duncan. Burke's man was Nazr Mohammed, who was around the 3-point line. Most of the fault in that play was from Boris or Shawn, whoever was supposed to be staying with Duncan. Yeah, Burke should have cheated over, but that play was far from entirely his fault.

 

[Errntknght]

To be fair, Burke's man was NOT Duncan. Burke's man was Nazr Mohammed, who was around the 3-point line. Most of the fault in that play was from Boris or Shawn, whoever was supposed to be staying with Duncan. Yeah, Burke should have cheated over...

You're not remembering the play I was talking about. It was the play which made the Spurs points = 100, in case you want to check it. I watched before and after that play to make sure that Burke was guarding TD - yep, every time down.

Nazr was not near the 3pt line, I doubt if he was in the frontcourt yet. And there was no question of cheating over... Burke was trailing Tim upcourt and made no effort to catch up with him - until it was too late. Two plays later was the play where Nazr made a jumper and Burke fouled Duncan during the shot. Someone called a timeout and TT replaced Burke, who sat the rest of the game. (The broadcasters weren't paying attention and said Marion fouled Nazy but TD took the foul shot after the timeout.)

 

[Chaplin]

To be fair, Burke's man was NOT Duncan. Burke's man was Nazr Mohammed, who was around the 3-point line. Most of the fault in that play was from Boris or Shawn, whoever was supposed to be staying with Duncan. Yeah, Burke should have cheated over...

You're not remembering the play I was talking about. It was the play which made the Spurs points = 100, in case you want to check it. I watched before and after that play to make sure that Burke was guarding TD - yep, every time down.

Nazr was not near the 3pt line, I doubt if he was in the frontcourt yet. And there was no question of cheating over... Burke was trailing Tim upcourt and made no effort to catch up with him - until it was too late. Two plays later was the play where Nazr made a jumper and Burke fouled Duncan during the shot. Someone called a timeout and TT replaced Burke, who sat the rest of the game. (The broadcasters weren't paying attention and said Marion fouled Nazy but TD took the foul shot after the timeout.)

That's not the way I remember it, but ok. I find no need to quibble over a single play. My problem is that you want Burke to be a superstar, and he just isn't. He is what he is--a minimum-salaried big man. And you are surprised he has some problems? I'm just tired of everyone trying to make him out to be a top backup when he clearly is not. He had some nice plays, and this one play you are complaining about did not lose us the game.

 

[jibikao]

It's amazing that this meaningless game has 9 pages of discussions.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin, "My problem is that you want Burke to be a superstar, and he just isn't."

You're in luck, your problem is a phantom. What I want from Burke, and what I'm still hoping he will do, is to play hard and be aggressive. He also needs to be in shape so he can still run back on defense after having played for five minutes.


"He is what he is--a minimum-salaried big man. And you are surprised he has some problems?"

All of us are not gifted with the intuition you have about the innate abilities and limitations of players. I have to observe them carefully over quite a lot of PT to come up with a glimmer of their capability. What I see in Burke is, at the least the appearance of, some muscle, a modicum of athletic ability and a decent shooting touch. From those things and his height I guess that if he'd play hard and aggressively he'd be a useful big on this team. I think the door has been open all season for him if he'd have taken it into his mind to go after rebounds with some energy.

Since KT went down we've seen him buckle down some and the results have been encouraging to me - so it was most disappointing to see him being badly beaten upfloor by Duncan, on ailing wheels and having played five times the minutes Burke had.

"I'm just tired of everyone trying to make him out to be a top backup when he clearly is not."

Everyone? Except for the last couple of weeks, no one on here except George and I have said anything remotely positive about Burke. The average comment about Burke was that he totally sucked and didn't belong on an NBA roster. Even the last couple of weeks I've observed a very modest amount of raving about his play.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, "My problem is that you want Burke to be a superstar, and he just isn't."

You're in luck, your problem is a phantom. What I want from Burke, and what I'm still hoping he will do, is to play hard and be aggressive. He also needs to be in shape so he can still run back on defense after having played for five minutes.

With the exception of that one play that stands out so much to you, Burke did play hard, and he most certainly played aggressive.

"He is what he is--a minimum-salaried big man. And you are surprised he has some problems?"

All of us are not gifted with the intuition you have about the innate abilities and limitations of players. I have to observe them carefully over quite a lot of PT to come up with a glimmer of their capability. What I see in Burke is, at the least the appearance of, some muscle, a modicum of athletic ability and a decent shooting touch. From those things and his height I guess that if he'd play hard and aggressively he'd be a useful big on this team. I think the door has been open all season for him if he'd have taken it into his mind to go after rebounds with some energy.

So what are you saying here? You see some things in Burke, and... Are you saying he hasn't lived up to your lofty expectations? Are those expectations for Burke to be a top backup?

The only way that anyone will stop saying that Pat Burke is a waste of a roster space is if he becomes a "top" backup. It will never happen, so everyone will continue to say he was a waste of space.

Everyone? Except for the last couple of weeks, no one on here except George and I have said anything remotely positive about Burke. The average comment about Burke was that he totally sucked and didn't belong on an NBA roster. Even the last couple of weeks I've observed a very modest amount of raving about his play.

Huh? George I know has said positive things--he is Irish, after all. But you? And you're saying that the two of you are the only ones that have said positive things about him? I myself have said that people are treating him unfairly--he is what he is, and several people are making him out to be something he's not. I wish Raja Bell was as good as Michael Jordan, too bad that is never going to be true. Pat Burke couldn't stay with Tim Duncan. Since our memories of that play are completely different, this is one of those arguements that will probably go on for too long a time.

 

[boisesuns]

I hope Burke proves me wrong, but he doesn't seem to grasp the plays and his awareness seems limited. I think one of the reasons people are hard on him is the fact that we've had scrubs at center that have been full of false hope over the years.

With basketball, your real game impact is going to determine if you get to play more. Practice performance will do that at well. Most of us don't know how Burke looks in practice, and all we have to go on is what he's done in games. So far, it hasn't been all that great.

From the minimal playing time i've seen Burke play, he's lost the ball on the way up, or missed a pass and had one bounced off him. More playing time could help him get in the flow, but he's playing against the suns team every day in practice, and everyone else on the suns has seemed to fit in with the team.

 

[Chaplin]

I hope Burke proves me wrong, but he doesn't seem to grasp the plays and his awareness seems limited. I think one of the reasons people are hard on him is the fact that we've had scrubs at center that have been full of false hope over the years.

With basketball, your real game impact is going to determine if you get to play more. Practice performance will do that at well. Most of us don't know how Burke looks in practice, and all we have to go on is what he's done in games. So far, it hasn't been all that great.

From the minimal playing time i've seen Burke play, he's lost the ball on the way up, or missed a pass and had one bounced off him. More playing time could help him get in the flow, but he's playing against the suns team every day in practice, and everyone else on the suns has seemed to fit in with the team.

While I agree with you somewhat, I think it's a little unfair. For the price we're paying him, he is a no-risk gamble. He is a big body that, quite frankly, nobody (including Burke himself) expected to be in this position (with all the injuries). We've seen first-hand what sitting on the bench for a long time does to players who are thrown right in--they don't perform even up to their own standards right away.

Pat Burke is used to coming into a game where the score is out of reach and he's playing against Shawn Marks and Mark Blount. Instead, he gets thrown into the fire to play against guys like Nazr Mohammed and Tim Duncan. Quite a bit of difference, and it's no big surprise that he can't perform as well as everyone would like him to. But it must be noted, that in the Spurs game, he took it at Duncan a few times, scoring on him and trying to aggressively draw fouls off of him. It didn't work, but he tried, and didn't look bad doing it.

 

[boisesuns]

While I agree with you somewhat, I think it's a little unfair. For the price we're paying him, he is a no-risk gamble. He is a big body that, quite frankly, nobody (including Burke himself) expected to be in this position (with all the injuries). We've seen first-hand what sitting on the bench for a long time does to players who are thrown right in--they don't perform even up to their own standards right away.

Pat Burke is used to coming into a game where the score is out of reach and he's playing against Shawn Marks and Mark Blount. Instead, he gets thrown into the fire to play against guys like Nazr Mohammed and Tim Duncan. Quite a bit of difference, and it's no big surprise that he can't perform as well as everyone would like him to. But it must be noted, that in the Spurs game, he took it at Duncan a few times, scoring on him and trying to aggressively draw fouls off of him. It didn't work, but he tried, and didn't look bad doing it.

I didn't get a chance to see the Spurs game, but since he's gotten a chance to play against Duncan and did "OK" that's encouraging. I'm glad Burke is cheap, but it's hard to get a gauge on him since our style doesn't seem to fit his game. He may be of use when things slow down in the playoffs, if the other guys aren't back in full swing.

Wasn't Burke complainging about being on the bench last week?

I have low expectations of him, and anything we can get out of him is great. Like I said, I hope he proves me wrong, but he just seems lost where the other guys on the team have seemed to plug in fine.

 

[myrondizzo]

he wasnt complaining about being on the bench. he said he was glad that he was able to get some more playing time.

 

[George O'Brien]

The biggest problem the Suns have right now is that none of their healthy inside guys can play people like Duncan one on one. I thought TT performed "OK" against Garnett because while KG scored a lot, the Suns didn't double the post every play like they did with the Spurs. However, KG is not a physical as the Spurs inside guys.

The Suns simply cannot afford to double the post on a routine basis. This is the same problem they had at the start of the season. Doubling the post gives opponents too many open jump shots and Spurs simply didn't miss until the game was all but over. Playing opponents without doubling is a necessity, but there are some guys that Diaw is not able to deal with.

Getting Grant and KT will solve the problem, but until then I think Burke has a role if Boris is getting overpowered. At least his fouls won't mean losing a potential triple double guy or giving up uncontested threes.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin, "So what are you saying here? You see some things in Burke, and... Are you saying he hasn't lived up to your lofty expectations? Are those expectations for Burke to be a top backup?"

What I'm saying is what I said. My expectations of Burke are that he will get himself in shape and play hard and aggressively. I think those are modest expectations but you can call them lofty if you like. As I said my guess is that he can be a useful big. If you want to argue with someone who expects Burke to be a "top backup", why don't you find someone who says that or a reasonable facsimile thereof?

"With the exception of that one play that stands out so much to you, Burke did play hard, and he most certainly played aggressive."

I said as much then noted that his failure to get back on defense undid the good he'd done, especially because it simply a failure of effort or of conditioning. He was racing a slowed TD not LaBron James and he'd only been on the floor for five minutes. (8 min total PT of which 2 were in the first half and 1 followed that play.)

 

[Errntknght]

George, "The Suns simply cannot afford to double the post on a routine basis. This is the same problem they had at the start of the season. Doubling the post gives opponents too many open jump shots and Spurs simply didn't miss until the game was all but over. Playing opponents without doubling is a necessity, but there are some guys that Diaw is not able to deal with."

I didn't like the doubling the Suns did in the Spurs game either but I don't think we should read too much into it. I think the coaches were experimenting to see what worked the best - and they could even have been doing it to mislead the Spurs as to what tactics they'll employ. They were doubling TD without the ball and even doubling Nazy - and I don't think that's what they expect to do in the playoffs.

I'm not sure it was really a problem early this year. Last season they overdid the doubling in the post for a while then backed way off and I thought that was in the nature of an experiment - I think it was the same thing this year. And I'm glad to see them taking that kind of an approach, even though it's somewhat painful to watch at the time.

 

[George O'Brien]

My impression was that in the first weeks of the season, the team routinely doubled the post. However, after the disasterous loss to the Kings in Nov D'Antoni changed the assignments which began the Suns improved defense.

KT's value at limiting opponent's low post threats tended to get overlooked because it is not an individual statistic. However, its value is enormous.

Boris has done a pretty good job on defense, but he is often 50-60 pounds smaller than the guys he's guarding. Big guys can simply back him down. The problem is somewhat different than with Amare who is big enough to defend the low post, but never developed the footwork to stay out of foul trouble.

If totally healthy, the Suns could afford to simply risk the fouls and play it straight. Right now that is hard to do with their lineup made entirely of guards and small forwards.

 

[Shawty]

For God's sake, why is anyone arguing with this troll? The Suns played like crap and got their asses kicked. End of story. If he wants to talk trash, let him. It was a crappy game and it's time to move on.

Same old Elindholm. If you don't like it don't respond. I talked ABSOLUTELY NO TRASH AT ALL.

 

[Shawty]

I wonder if the troll status needs to be raised?

What...so it can include Elindholm? I always discuss things in a civilized manner on this forum. Those who know me know that as a fact.

 

[boisesuns]

What...so it can include Elindholm? I always discuss things in a civilized manner on this forum. Those who know me know that as a fact.

I get it. So when the SPurs play a good offensive and defensive game, the refs are to blame.

That seems like trash talking to me. Your discussions have been pretty good, but there's some coments that get thrown in that get people riled up.

 

[Shawty]

With Nash, Amare, Leandro, Kurt Thomas, Brian Grant, and others missing.

If it were the opposite situation where the equivalent of the Spurs having only Manu (with Parker, Horry, Duncan and others missing), I wouldn't talk about how great we were in beating that team.

Congrats you held a team that was missing 2 preseason MVP candidates and a bunch of good role players under 100 pts. What a brilliant accomplishment

Basketball is basketball. That is especially the case with the Suns. Even with injuries they are more than a decent team. They are one of the few teams in the league that can actually put bench players on the floor and still reasonably compete. By your same metality, if shoe ended up on the other foot and the SPurs lost the game, you would celebrate. So, yes, I am happy the Spurs won the game. It's not as ideal a win minus the others but it is a win.

 

[Shawty]

That seems like trash talking to me. Your discussions have been pretty good, there's some coments that have to be thrown in that get people riled up.

That is NOT trash talkion'. If it was, I would be eligible for Trash-Talkin' 101.

 

[Folster]

My impression was that in the first weeks of the season, the team routinely doubled the post. However, after the disasterous loss to the Kings in Nov D'Antoni changed the assignments which began the Suns improved defense.

KT's value at limiting opponent's low post threats tended to get overlooked because it is not an individual statistic. However, its value is enormous.

Boris has done a pretty good job on defense, but he is often 50-60 pounds smaller than the guys he's guarding. Big guys can simply back him down. The problem is somewhat different than with Amare who is big enough to defend the low post, but never developed the footwork to stay out of foul trouble.

If totally healthy, the Suns could afford to simply risk the fouls and play it straight. Right now that is hard to do with their lineup made entirely of guards and small forwards.

Great post. I agree with almost everything. To further expound, the Suns need to pick their poison. Either man-up and get lit up by one player, or double team and let their opponent's whole team get involved. The latter is potentially more dangerous and has not worked thus far.