Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

Cheesebeef

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In all fairness they did so before the fan reaction.

If it makes a trillion dollars, I don’t think the reaction will bother them. But I bet his trilogy gets a little shorter leash .

I mean, this sucker will still end up with AT LEAST 600 million domestic which will be good enough for top 5 ever and it wouldn’t surprise me if it got mid 700 to take the number 2 spot. Most mixed review peeps like me want to see it again as do the rabid fans.
 

Covert Rain

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If it makes a trillion dollars, I don’t think the reaction will bother them. But I bet his trilogy gets a little shorter leash .

I mean, this sucker will still end up with AT LEAST 600 million domestic which will be good enough for top 5 ever and it wouldn’t surprise me if it got mid 700 to take the number 2 spot. Most mixed review peeps like me want to see it again as do the rabid fans.

True but the prequels were widely criticized and they did gangbusters too. I mean if any franchise gives you an automatic buffer it’s this one.

It would have to be a screw up of epic proportions to get one of these to bomb.
 

Cheesebeef

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True but the prequels were widely criticized and they did gangbusters too. I mean if any franchise gives you an automatic buffer it’s this one.

It would have to be a screw up of epic proportions to get one of these to bomb.

True... but it still has to be good to at least the majority of Star Wars fans to make another 500 million bucks, especially because it faces stiffer competition this Xmas compared to Awakens with Jumanji, Pitch Perfect 3, The Post and Greatest Showman.
 

Covert Rain

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True... but it still has to be good to at least the majority of Star Wars fans to make another 500 million bucks, especially because it faces stiffer competition this Xmas compared to Awakens with Jumanji, Pitch Perfect 3, The Post and Greatest Showman.

That means the prequels were good enough to the majority no? I mean I didn’t really like the first one even though I loved some characters (Maul, Qui-Gon). The second one was better and I still like Revenge of the Sith. Not to mention the Clone Troopers popularity soared after the pre-quels. Also EM version of Obi is a fan favorite and is at least going to spawn another film.

I think the buffer was in full effect for the prequels. Not sure that would have lasted if not for the next three being TFA, RO and TLJ.
 

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I've been pondering comments that Johnson was not true to Luke's character in this one. I think he was incredibly faithful to Luke and this was not a surprising trajectory for the character to make.

Luke has always been impulsive. That has been his character flaw from the start. He acts before he thinks and as he learns his true identity, he doubles down on impulsive decisions because he is a Skywalker and things will always work out because, Force.

A New Hope:

1. Discovers dead Jawas: Runs home to certain death. Lucky stormtroopers have already moved on.
2. On Death Star, learns Leia is on board, mounts rescue mission to detention level despite being told to sit tight.
3. On Death Star, witnesses Obi Wan and Vader's duel. Runs toward it when everyone else is boarding. Screams out to draw Imperial fire.
4. Despite an hour or two of Force training on the Falcon, he decides to abandon technology and use the force to blow up the Death Star. Yes, Obi Wan was prompting him to trust the Force, but it was Luke he interpreted that to mean, "turn off your scanner".

Then comes a major mistake on Obi Wan's part: "Remember, the Force will be with you. Always."

Um? Now Luke just took a major, unnecessary gamble. It paid off. Not because he was lucky, but because some mystical energy has decided Luke is "special". He is chosen. It will guide him.

Empire:

Then he get's impulsive again!

1. Why does he need to investigate a meteor crash in a system full of them? It needlessly put him in harm's way, and by extension, Han and the rest of the Rebels sent out to look for him.
2. On Dagobah, he flashes impatience over and over. Then he goes in the Dark Force cave to face his fears and learns that, yes, he could become the next Vader.
3. He abandons his training to save his friends on Bespin, ignoring his teachers and falling into Vader's trap.
4. Once he loses his friends and comes face-to-face with Vader, rather than disengage and run, he relies on a couple of weeks of training to take on the most feared warrior in the Galaxy.

Considering every misstep Luke makes in this movie, he is lucky to only have lost his hand. But, with Star Wars technology, even that isn't a major loss.

Return of the Jedi.

Time has passed and we are lead to believe Luke has honed his Jedi powers (and by extension his wisdom?). It is no small feat to build a lightsaber, so he likely did have to grow as a Jedi to complete this very dangerous task. Once he is ready to use it, cocky Luke returns.

1. He sends all of his friends into harm's way, planting them strategically in Jabba's Palace before his arrival. He then arrives, used Dark Force powers to choke some Gamorrean guards, and confronts Jabba in a room full of enemies.
2. He tries to use Jedi mind tricks on Jabba and fails, earning a date with the Rancor.
3. He accompanies his friends to Endor, jeopardizing their mission.
4. He turns himself in to the Empire on Endor, confirming to the bad guys that, yes, the Forest Moon has been infiltrated by rebels.
5. The Emperor goads Luke: "Strike me down!" Luke takes the bait, summons his lightsaber, and takes a swing that is interrupted by Vader.
6. He gives into the Dark Side to defeat Vader when he is told they will go after Leia.
7. When the Emperor tells Luke to finish Vader, Luke could have easily turned to face the Emperor with his lightsaber to protect him. Instead, he tosses it away? Wait? What? Why? This leaves him vulnerable to Force lightning. Moron.

Despite all of these missteps, it works out for Luke in the end. He defied orders and logic, yet because he feels he has mastery over the Force, it is okay. It'll work out. He's a Skywalker.

Then he starts a Jedi Academy. As he senses Ben Solo's conflict, the impulsive Luke returns, ready to murder his nephew in cold blood. Luckily, it is a fleeting thought. Unluckily, it is still a fatal mistake. Ben awakens, getting the final nudge to the Dark Side from Luke's betrayal, and destroys the Academy. Not only does Luke have to face the fact that he failed his family, but the dozens of other families that are mourning lost loved ones. For the first time in his life, things are not going to work out for the best. For the first time, he has to face that he is not protected from himself by the Force. His hubris has been shattered, and so has the man. He has to question every move he makes from that point forward because autocorrect is no longer functioning.

So faced with the realization that he has ungodly power and no idea which path is the correct one to take, he makes the only sensible decision he can. "The Force will be with you. Always." What was once a blessing is now a curse. So he exerts his considerable power to close himself off from the Force. He becomes a void in the universe, unable to influence it, but that also means he can't make things any worse. Let the Force get to work balancing the universe. He's out.

Luke had 3 father figures: Obi Wan, Vader, and Yoda. It's been speculated that Obi Wan and Yoda both shut themselves off from the Force when they were in exile, in order to evade the Empire. Only when they are urged back into the fight do they reengage. Luke follows their example, rather than that of his father, who demanded the Force bend to his will. In this, he once again assumes he is choosing the wisest path, the correct path. He is sure of it. It's not cowardly. It's the only option he's allowed for himself to follow.
 
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Covert Rain

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I've been pondering comments that Johnson was not true to Luke's character in this one. I think he was incredibly faithful to Luke and this was not a surprising trajectory for the character to make.

Luke has always been impulsive. That has been his character flaw from the start. He acts before he thinks and as he learns his true identity, he doubles down on impulsive decisions because he is a Skywalker and things will always work out because, Force.

A New Hope:

1. Discovers dead Jawas: Runs home to certain death. Lucky stormtroopers have already moved on.
2. On Death Star, learns Leia is on board, mounts rescue mission to detention level despite being told to sit tight.
3. On Death Star, witnesses Obi Wan and Vader's duel. Runs toward it when everyone else is boarding. Screams out to draw Imperial fire.
4. Despite an hour or two of Force training on the Falcon, he decides to abandon technology and use the force to blow up the Death Star. Yes, Obi Wan was prompting him to trust the Force, but it was Luke he interpreted that to mean, "turn off your scanner".

Then comes a major mistake on Obi Wan's part: "Remember, the Force will be with you. Always."

Um? Now Luke just took a major, unnecessary gamble. It paid off. Not because he was lucky, but because some mystical energy has decided Luke is "special". He is chosen. It will guide him.

Empire:

Then he get's impulsive again!

1. Why does he need to investigate a meteor crash in a system full of them? It needlessly put him in harm's way, and by extension, Han and the rest of the Rebels sent out to look for him.
2. On Dagobah, he flashes impatience over and over. Then he goes in the Dark Force cave to face his fears and learns that, yes, he could become the next Vader.
3. He abandons his training to save his friends on Bespin, ignoring his teachers and falling into Vader's trap.
4. Once he loses his friends and comes face-to-face with Vader, rather than disengage and run, he relies on a couple of weeks of training to take on the most feared warrior in the Galaxy.

Considering every misstep Luke makes in this movie, he is lucky to only have lost his hand. But, with Star Wars technology, even that isn't a major loss.

Return of the Jedi.

Time has passed and we are lead to believe Luke has honed his Jedi powers (and by extension his wisdom?). It is no small feat to build a lightsaber, so he likely did have to grow as a Jedi to complete this very dangerous task. Once he is ready to use it, cocky Luke returns.

1. He sends all of his friends into harm's way, planting them strategically in Jabba's Palace before his arrival. He then arrives, used Dark Force powers to chose some Gamorrean guards, and confronts Jabba in a room full of enemies.
2. He tries to use Jedi mind tricks on Jabba and fails, earning a date with the Rancor.
3. He accompanies his friends to Endor, jeopardizing their mission.
4. He turns himself in to the Empire on Endor, confirming to the bad guys that, yes, the Forest Moon has been infiltrated by rebels.
5. The Emperor goads Luke: "Strike me down!" Luke takes the bait, summons his lightsaber, and takes a swing that is interrupted by Vader.
6. He gives into the Dark Side to defeat Vader when he is told they will go after Leia.
7. When the Emperor tells Luke to finish Vader, Luke could have easily turned to face the Emperor with his lightsaber to protect him. Instead, he tosses it away? Wait? What? Why? This leaves him vulnerable to Force lightning. Moron.

Despite all of these missteps, it works out for Luke in the end. He defied orders and logic, yet because he feels he has mastery over the Force, it is okay. It'll work out. He's a Skywalker.

Then he starts a Jedi Academy. As he senses Ben Solo's conflict, the impulsive Luke returns, ready to murder his nephew in cold blood. Luckily, it is a fleeting thought. Unluckily, it is still a fatal mistake. Ben awakens, getting the final nudge to the Dark Side from Luke's betrayal, and destroys the Academy. Not only does Luke have to face the fact that he failed his family, but the dozens of other families that are mourning lost loved ones. For the first time in his life, things are not going to work out for the best. For the first time, he has to face that he is not protected from himself by the Force. His hubris has been shattered, and so has the man. He has to question every move he makes from that point forward because autocorrect is no longer functioning.

So faced with the realization that he has ungodly power and no idea which path is the correct one to take, he makes the only sensible decision he can. "The Force will be with you. Always." What was once a blessing is now a curse. So he exerts his considerable power to close himself off from the Force. He becomes a void in the universe, unable to influence it, but that also means he can't make things any worse. Let the Force get to work balancing the universe. He's out.

Luke had 3 father figures: Obi Wan, Vader, and Yoda. It's been speculated that Obi Wan and Yoda both shut themselves off from the Force when they were in exile, in order to evade the Empire. Only when they are urged back into the fight do they reengage. Luke follows their example, rather than that of his father, who demanded the Force bend to his will. In this, he once again assumes he is choosing the wisest path, the correct path. He is sure of it. It's not cowardly. It's the only option he's allowed for himself to follow.

I don’t think it was out of character or that he was a coward one bit. I just think his character deserved a much better story arc. I mean we desperately wait for him in TFA. Then we finally get him in TLJ and it's this? Like I said, loved this movie but I have never been so annoyed at a single aspect of a movie I enjoyed like this.

IMO by diminishing Luke and his family line it diminishes his characters importance in the universe. He is just another powerful Jedi now that came and went. Vader is another Jedi/Sith that came and went. That’s some B.S. It doesn't only crap on Abram's film. It craps on Lucas's films as well.
 
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UncleChris

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Who knows...... maybe Luke has found a way to teleport himself using the force. Hey.... I'm only half kidding. We always are finding out new stuff about the force, so why not? It would give some real meat to Luke saying see ya around, kid... ;)
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yeah, but who actually cares about Sidious... or the prequels for that matter?
Sidious = Snoke in terms of their respective roles in 4-6 and this trilogy. Sith Lord overseeing the primary antagonist (Vader/Kylo). Why you think Snoke requires more development than sidious is beyond me.
 

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Sidious = Snoke in terms of their respective roles in 4-6 and this trilogy. Sith Lord overseeing the primary antagonist (Vader/Kylo). Why you think Snoke requires more development than sidious is beyond me.

It’s not about development. They built up him up and made him out to be a big deal. Let the mystery build and.....

He basically is barely in the first, gets time in the second and ends up being his apprentice’s bitch. There was never any doubt about Sidious and his strength/role. It took him being distracted to get taken out. RJ completely made the character pointless.
 

crisper57

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It’s not about development. They built up him up and made him out to be a big deal. Let the mystery build and.....

He basically is barely in the first, gets time in the second and ends up being his apprentice’s bitch. There was never any doubt about Sidious and his strength/role. It took him being distracted to get taken out. RJ completely made the character pointless.

There is one super awesome way to redeem this Snoke arc, IMO. Daisy Ridley says she is on a 3-picture contract. The original 3 are now pretty much done. The Resistance is in tatters. And Kylo Ren is now just taking the reigns of the First Order (and showing absolutely no ability to lead strategically). We also know Rian Johnson is doing a new trilogy. Even though he says he is abandoning the Skywalker saga, what if that is only partially true? Could Adam Driver stick around for 3 more movies?

In Episode IX, have the Resistance lose. Have Rey die in a tragically heroic way if Ridley won't come back. Have Kylo Ren make the next step as Supreme Leader, pulling the Galaxy back within his grasp. Force the Resistance back into hiding, biding their time until they can accumulate the numbers to mount a counter offensive. Have Poe and/or Finn ascend to the top of the Leadership chain, carrying the torch passed by Rey and Leia and Luke and Han. Meanwhile, Kylo Ren becomes every bit as cunning as Palpatine in his time as Supreme Leader, parting ways with stupid and impulsive mistakes and gaining a terrifying reputation as a master strategist.

Basically, make this trilogy like the prequels. Show the big bad's rise to power (Anakin/Kylo Ren). Make the subsequent trilogy all about their downfall. (IV-VI and X-XII). This trilogy is already much more fascinating to see how Ben Solo became Supreme Leader than it was to see how Anakin became Darth Vader. What if this trilogy is all about his development? It'd be an amazing misdirection and it would mean that the nameless/faceless heroes of the future would have to come from nothing to overthrow the last vestige of the Skywalker dynasty.
 

Cheesebeef

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Sidious = Snoke in terms of their respective roles in 4-6 and this trilogy. Sith Lord overseeing the primary antagonist (Vader/Kylo). Why you think Snoke requires more development than sidious is beyond me.

My bad... thought you meant Darth Plageuis.
 

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This probably nails a lot of what fans are thinking.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

If it makes a trillion dollars, I don’t think the reaction will bother them. But I bet his trilogy gets a little shorter leash .

I mean, this sucker will still end up with AT LEAST 600 million domestic which will be good enough for top 5 ever and it wouldn’t surprise me if it got mid 700 to take the number 2 spot. Most mixed review peeps like me want to see it again as do the rabid fans.
What it's going to do is dampen the anticipation for ep9. There's really nothing to look forward to.
 
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Cheesebeef

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This probably nails a lot of what fans are thinking.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


What it's going to do is dampen the anticipation for ep9. There's really nothing to look forward to.

Yeah... this movie felt like a trilogy finale... but not.

The next one will make a truckload of money but I bet we see a significant drop in overall Box Office. (Which we’ll prob see here too, only because the 950,000,000 is such a ridiculous amount from
Awakens.)
 

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It’s not about development. They built up him up and made him out to be a big deal. Let the mystery build and.....

He basically is barely in the first, gets time in the second and ends up being his apprentice’s bitch. There was never any doubt about Sidious and his strength/role. It took him being distracted to get taken out. RJ completely made the character pointless.
yrah have to completely disagree with you. We saw just as much Snoke as we saw sidious. Both were bit players. They didn’t “play” Snoke up at all. And in support of this, did you see any Snoke toys? No. But you did see phasma toys. And this season even the Black evil BB9 who had less air time than Snoke. Where’s HIS development if we want to get really silly about this.
 

Cheesebeef

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yrah have to completely disagree with you. We saw just as much Snoke as we saw sidious. Both were bit players. They didn’t “play” Snoke up at all. And in support of this, did you see any Snoke toys? No. But you did see phasma toys. And this season even the Black evil BB9 who had less air time than Snoke. Where’s HIS development if we want to get really silly about this.

yeah... the emperor didn't even show up outside a hologram before Jedi. That moment didn't bother me. I thought the character was stupid anyway.
 

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yrah have to completely disagree with you. We saw just as much Snoke as we saw sidious. Both were bit players. They didn’t “play” Snoke up at all. And in support of this, did you see any Snoke toys? No. But you did see phasma toys. And this season even the Black evil BB9 who had less air time than Snoke. Where’s HIS development if we want to get really silly about this.

Sorry but the fact that you saw as much as Sidious, knew he was not to be trifled with, couldn’t be defeated until distracted and Vader snuck up on him says much.

Snoke? He was badly handled all the way around. He had the power to bridge Kylo/Rey across the galaxy but was someone not strong enough to see Kylo was putting fake thoughts out there for him to read. Oh and at the same time taken out by his apprentice by flipping the “on switch” on the Lightsaber. That’s on top of throwing away any mystery build up and fun debate kicked off by the first film.

Grand Canyon of difference. I don’t know anybody who ever called the Emperor pointless. Heck the extended universe wrote multiple stories around the existence of The Emperor. He is still a fan favorite.
 

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The emperor built menace and was made stronger nearly every time Darth Vader was on the screen. Not just the mystery of this unseen emperor,... but a being so evil and powerful he instills reverence and fear in Darth Vader himself,...the icon of evil in the entire galaxy.
every time Vader said, "The Emperor"...it built his mystery,...when Vader said, "My Master"...it built fear. Every act of evil that Vader performed was in the name of the emperor.

who the hell is snokes? some blue dude that teaches kylo....sounds like sith day care.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Sorry but the fact that you saw as much as Sidious, knew he was not to be trifled with, couldn’t be defeated until distracted and Vader snuck up on him says much.

Snoke? He was badly handled all the way around. He had the power to bridge Kylo/Rey across the galaxy but was someone not strong enough to see Kylo was putting fake thoughts out there for him to read. Oh and at the same time taken out by his apprentice by flipping the “on switch” on the Lightsaber. That’s on top of throwing away any mystery build up and fun debate kicked off by the first film.

Grand Canyon of difference. I don’t know anybody who ever called the Emperor pointless. Heck the extended universe wrote multiple stories around the existence of The Emperor. He is still a fan favorite.

You can’t bring extended universe into this because 90% of Star Wars viewers know zilch about that. This is about the movies. I’m willing to bet that percentage of screen time for both characters over each trilogy is roughly equivalent.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The emperor built menace and was made stronger nearly every time Darth Vader was on the screen. Not just the mystery of this unseen emperor,... but a being so evil and powerful he instills reverence and fear in Darth Vader himself,...the icon of evil in the entire galaxy.
every time Vader said, "The Emperor"...it built his mystery,...when Vader said, "My Master"...it built fear. Every act of evil that Vader performed was in the name of the emperor.

who the hell is snokes? some blue dude that teaches kylo....sounds like sith day care.
Comparing apples and oranges. Vader and Kylo represent much different points on the evil sith development timeline, so their respective deference to their leaders, and the importance thereof, really aren’t - and shouldn’t be - comparable.
 

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Comparing apples and oranges. Vader and Kylo represent much different points on the evil sith development timeline, so their respective deference to their leaders, and the importance thereof, really aren’t - and shouldn’t be - comparable.

and that, IMO is why the new movies just don't come close to the old ones. The menace/villains in the new one are really pathetic if you think about it. They are defeated/killed so easily... even though we're told how scary they are. Can't tell an audience be scared... must scare them.
 

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You can’t bring extended universe into this because 90% of Star Wars viewers know zilch about that. This is about the movies. I’m willing to bet that percentage of screen time for both characters over each trilogy is roughly equivalent.

It’s not about screen time either. There simply is no comparing the two characters at all. Snoke will forever be throwaway which doesn’t describe The Emperor at all.

This generation could have had its own Emperor. That appears what JJ set up. The fans were into it too judging all the theories and discussions etc. Then it was flushed by RJ. Simply pointless.
 

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I get that Luke has been by himself for year hunting and drinking four boobed milk, but it still just felt... off.
That scene seemed so incongruous to the Star Wars universe. I didn't get that choice at all.
 

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This probably nails a lot of what fans are thinking.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


What it's going to do is dampen the anticipation for ep9. There's really nothing to look forward to.
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything those guys said. I'm just not really in the Star Wars fandom and I know people are really passionate about this series, so I try to kinda soften my reviews and stuff.

However, Leia going full Superman in space was one of the "eye rolling" moments I mentioned. Man that was just terrible. I seriously spent the next 10 minutes of the movie after that in my own head like; wait;;;; WTF just happened? Leia has never used the force other than for sensing people and feelings, now she can survive the cold vacuum of space and fly like Superman? What a corny ass gag when they could have taken the natural and obvious and logical path of having her killed there, it was a sad and poignant moment,, a fitting sendoff for a deceased actress... Nope! Instead of that we'll turn her into a superhero and bring her back CGI style and also for the next movie we will go 100% CGI and really make this awkward...
Chewy was a total non factor in the movie, the stupid CGI critters got way more screen time than they needed to and,,, yeah. Lets just say the more distance I get from this film the worse it is getting.

Also this movie didn't leave me wanting more at all. If I'm Disney I'm seriously re thinking having this director do another film much less a franchise.
 

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Disagree with much of what everybody is saying here. Sounds like you all had heightened expectations, but the reality is that NONE of you would have been satisfied with anything he did because the original trilogy is so ingrained in your minds -- that explains the fan grades being significantly lower than critics.

The single biggest issue I had with the movie was a minor plot hole at the end, where Rey apparently escapes from Snoke's ship in some sort of stolen transport (not seen, but I believe Hux tells Kylo that) and then ends up on the Falcon. Gotta be a deleted scene somewhere that explains that.

I also thought the directing was quite good--not sure why all the Rian Johnson hate.

As far as Luke goes, it is painfully obvious that Luke is not happy, not even a little bit. He basically WANTS to die and feels he is beyond redemption. Except he isn't beyond redemption, as proven in the final showdown between he and Kylo, which was very well done, and in hindsight made sense. Did nobody notice that his force projection was basically the same Luke in appearance as he was several years earlier at the Jedi Temple? That decidedly major difference in appearance, even though the time hasn't been THAT long also shows just how used up Luke is. He almost certainly will appear as a force ghost in IX.

I loved it and even though I agree with a lot that is said about Snoke and the Emperor, I thought it was interesting that they killed him off so soon. And I thought the fact that Ren did it but did NOT turn back to the Light Side was a nice touch and made the story veer off in an unexpected way. I will say, the fight against Snoke's red guard was my favorite in the movie.

Also, did anyone else notice the music playing in the casino was a variation of the music played in the Mos Eisley Cantina? It was a nice touch.

Funny thing was my first thought when Rose and Finn looked at the horse races or whatever they were, I thought for sure it was going to be pod racers. My mistake. (Rose was great casting as well)

Nice to see at least a small part of Gwendolyn Christie. I hope she has a bigger role in IX, as it appears she is officially Finn's main rival.
 

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