Steve Nash trade thread

[Covert Rain]

If we had a decent team nobody would rate Gortat that highly.

If he was still putting up good numbers..why not? Who is "nobody"? I think you mean "you" right?

Even an average player can shine when you surround him with enough crappy players, see Kevin Love.

So then what happened to Lopez? Why couldn't he shine?

Or.....are you finally admitting Lopez sucks?

Also, is that why Frye shined in your eyes since he is better than Gortat?

Speaking of Love, your saying his rebounding is because he is around crappy players? So, Dennis Rodman played on some crappy teams....rebounded well....went to good teams....still rebounded well. So....why can't he?

Better yet...some factual examples please of NBA leaders who went to better teams and completely exposed their previous league leading statistic as a fraud. That is what your saying will happen to Love. Even if you could think of someone wouldn't that mean that is a minority of what happens in reality?
Can't wait for this explanation.

 

[BC867]

... to hold on the lone somewhat bright spot of a forgettable season.

Bingo! Welcome aboard.

If we had a decent team nobody would rate Gortat that highly.

slinslin giveth and slinslin taketh away. That didn't take long.

Even if Gortat were an "average" Center in his partial season with the Suns, playing starter minutes off the bench, without a rest once he entered during each half and surrounded by backups . . .

That's a great sign for next season, playing with the starters and getting reasonable rest time.

We have an anchor at Center, probably the best in our history.

Well folks, is the good slin or the evil slin going to respond this time? Schnell!

 

[elindholm]

If it helps, I'm not that high on Gortat either. I made some points a while back and it was clear that no one was really listening, so I dropped out of the discussion. I haven't gone through and counted where exactly I think he ranks among the league's centers, but I'd say he's roughly average among starters. I agree with slinslin that Gortat's low-post game is almost nonexistent, and (as I said before) I'm not sure I've ever seen him give a ball fake. I'm often troubled that he seems to have bad hands -- he fumbles a lot of balls he should get to, either as passes from Nash or on the boards. And I expect that his potential for improvement is limited.

It's pretty insulting to the intelligence of this whole board to allege that slinslin's problems with Gortat stem from a WWII-era tension between Germans and Poles.

Over the last month of the season, Lopez looked downright awful, but shortly after the Gortat trade, I think the gap between the two players was nowhere near as large as many on this board thought. Now it's larger, thanks to Lopez's regression. Of course, regarding the question of who starts, we saw that the team benefited in other ways from having Lopez as the starter, as evidenced by the complete collapse they underwent once the switch was made.

 

[BC867]

Of course, regarding the question of who starts, we saw that the team benefited in other ways from having Lopez as the starter, as evidenced by the complete collapse they underwent once the switch was made.

The collapse was due to Steve Nash being worn out and pulling up lame in an offensive system designed for him to run.

That has nothing to do with Gentry banishing Lopez to the bench once he played his six minutes in the first half while establishing Gortat as his starter.

As slinslin even said, referring to Gortat, "the lone somewhat bright spot of a forgettable season".

 

[AzStevenCal]

If it helps, I'm not that high on Gortat either. I made some points a while back and it was clear that no one was really listening, so I dropped out of the discussion. I haven't gone through and counted where exactly I think he ranks among the league's centers, but I'd say he's roughly average among starters. I agree with slinslin that Gortat's low-post game is almost nonexistent, and (as I said before) I'm not sure I've ever seen him give a ball fake. I'm often troubled that he seems to have bad hands -- he fumbles a lot of balls he should get to, either as passes from Nash or on the boards. And I expect that his potential for improvement is limited.

It's pretty insulting to the intelligence of this whole board to allege that slinslin's problems with Gortat stem from a WWII-era tension between Germans and Poles.

Over the last month of the season, Lopez looked downright awful, but shortly after the Gortat trade, I think the gap between the two players was nowhere near as large as many on this board thought. Now it's larger, thanks to Lopez's regression. Of course, regarding the question of who starts, we saw that the team benefited in other ways from having Lopez as the starter, as evidenced by the complete collapse they underwent once the switch was made.

I don't have a problem with saying he is roughly "average". I think he's a little better than that but I don't think I'm sharp enough to tell the difference between the 11th best center and the 16th best center. I disagree with his ability to improve though. When he first entered the lineup he had quite a problem handling bounce passes but IMO he improved considerably in that regard.

I think he's well above average defensively and shows signs of being effective on the offensive end. I think there's a reasonable chance he'll grow into a top 5 center but even if he doesn't, he's still a valuable asset. His current performance level coupled with his work ethic and team first approach should make him a target for several teams. I don't particularly want to move him but if we do, I would expect him to carry a premium.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

IMO, Gortat will develop into a fair low post player. One reason I think that is that there isn't anyone else on the team that plays down low or who needs to have middle left open like Amare did. Even our coaches can figure that out so they'll work with him on it. Also he's already shown a decent left hand hook shot. If he keeps on improving that he's halfway there.

 

[Gaddabout]

This statement just blew my mind. Let's run down the list of starting centers still playing in the playoffs: Noah, J. O'Neal, Ilgauskas, Collins, McDyess/Blair, Gasol, Bynum, Chandler, and Perkins. Gortat is more than capable of being a starting center for a contender. Four of the nine teams remaining would give their left nut to have Gortat manning the center position for them right now.

The fact O'Neal and Ilgauskas are playing shows you the dearth of talented big men in the league. I'll give you that. But I'll take Noah, either Gasol brothers, Chandler, Perkins, and probably most of the others you mentioned over Gortat. Bynum? Are you kidding me? If that kid's healthy he's one of the best 20 players in the league. He changes the whole game with his presence.

But Gortat is NOT a 15/10 guy on a good team. In fact, he would have almost zero role in an offensve with legitimately talented offensive starters, and having to resort to trash points, he'd struggle to get 7 points a game in decent minutes. In a good offense, he's a distraction and a guy that probably gets in the way more than he helps.

Gortat is 27. He's done developing. He is what he is: A slightly skilled 6-11 brute with the kind of attitude you wish better bigs, like Amare, had. In fact Gortat's toughness is his best quality and why I'd love to keep him around. He's a good role player.

But if he's a focal point of any kind, that means your team is spending its summer figuring out lottery odds.

Frye can froth at the mouth all he wants, but he's never going to be anything but a small forward in a center's body -- a guy without a position unless he's playing in the Suns spread offense.

 

[gordon]

Gortat is 27. He's done developing. He is what he is

 

[Superbone]

It's pretty insulting to the intelligence of this whole board to allege that slinslin's problems with Gortat stem from a WWII-era tension between Germans and Poles.

Didn't mean to insult your intelligence or anybody else's intelligence on the board. The article I posted was from 2009. I was just looking for new lines of reasoning for slinslin's borderline obsessive denigrating of Gortat's abilities.

 

[chickenhead]

I really like Gortat, and I think he will improve. But at present I view him more as a missing piece than a piece to build around. For example, I wish he could have been present on every Suns iteration in the Nash era. But I don't think he should determine the overall rebuilding strategy.

But it's a weird situation in the sense that I'm worried we as fans overvalue him, but that the front office is going to trade him and not get adequate value in return.

 

[Superbone]

But it's a weird situation in the sense that I'm worried we as fans overvalue him, but that the front office is going to trade him and not get adequate value in return.

I think he'll stick around. The Suns have a real center for the first time in a long time and he's popular with the fans. I don't think our FO is THAT dumb.

 

[slinslin]

They would be dumb if they got fleeced. Shopping him however should be an attractive option because he is not a player you rebuild around and we need to rebuild and to do that we need pieces. His value right now is in my opinion the highest it will likely ever be.

It is no good to have an above average center when you have no pieces to carry the team before he is on the other side of 30.

 

[BC867]

But Gortat is NOT a 15/10 guy on a good team. In fact, he would have almost zero role in an offensve with legitimately talented offensive starters, and having to resort to trash points, he'd struggle to get 7 points a game in decent minutes. In a good offense, he's a distraction and a guy that probably gets in the way more than he helps.

It is amazing how many Suns fans' posts refer only to offense. Defense is half of the game -- more than half when you factor in rebounds of your own team's misses.

Even if Marcin is at best an opportunity scorer, his defense, rebounding, endurance, basketball intelligence and leadership at Center make him a valuable asset to any team seeking to qualify for the playoffs and aiming to become an elite team.

Robin Lopez has proven himself to be "7 points a game" and very little else.

 

[slinslin]

.

Even if Marcin is at best an opportunity scorer, his defense, rebounding, endurance, basketball intelligence and leadership at Center make him a valuable asset to any teamseeking to qualify for the playoffs and aiming to become an elite team.

Robin Lopez has proven himself to be "7 points a game" and very little else.

What has Lopez to do with anything right now in this context? Being better than Lopez doesn't change anyones opinion on Gortat.

His endurance? I could swear you were suggesting playing 32mpg off the bench was wearing out Gortat to a degree that starting him was the only valid option.

Basketball Intelligence?????

Leadership? You think Marcin Gortat could lead a team?

His defense is ok, it is average, he doesn't really block shots or alter shots so I have trouble raving about his defense.

Matts assessment was spot on. His offense is basically dependent on others scoring garbage points or being set up for open layups because defenses did not respect him much in the pick and roll with Nash.

Defensively he is average. His best skills are his toughness and above average rebounding.

 

[BC867]

What has Lopez to do with anything right now in this context? Being better than Lopez doesn't change anyones opinion on Gortat.

Because right now, they are our Centers. As long as Lopez is in the equation, Gortat is going to be over-taxed, which leads to the next point.

His endurance? I could swear you were suggesting playing 32mpg off the bench was wearing out Gortat to a degree that starting him was the only valid option.

That's right. His endurance is what kept him producing despite playing in 18-minute spurts every half (certainly the only bench player in the league called on to do that). In the long run, that is obviously not good sense on the part of the Coach.

Basketball Intelligence?????

'Hard to respond to two words and five question marks. I would say adjusting to our dysfunctional situation, rising above it and producing.

Leadership? You think Marcin Gortat could lead a team?

He has been a leader among the players from the time he arrived, verbalizing about a higher standard of defensive responsibilities. And stepping in when players got emotional with refs, for example, to keep them in the game. Nash and Hill exert quiet leadership, which hasn't seemed to make a difference.

His defense is ok, it is average, he doesn't really block shots or alter shots so I have trouble raving about his defense.

'Good start for a Center in his first opportunity playing significant minutes. Do you really believe he doesn't have the potential to develop with experience?

Matt's assessment was spot on. His offense is basically dependent on others scoring garbage points or being set up for open layups because defenses did not respect him much in the pick and roll with Nash.

Again, do you really believe that Gortat doesn't have the potential to develop with experience? He already recognized and announced that he will be developing his post game on offense during the off-season. He is setting expectations.

Defensively he is average. His best skills are his toughness and above average rebounding.

That's a great start for a player who didn't have the opportunity to start until near the end of this season.

Don't be jaded by the disappointment of the Center who had a much longer opportunity and was slightly above piss-poor in just one area -- scoring, when playing all of his minutes alongside Nash. But I won't mention his name.

I would love to see you share with us why you have it in for, what appears to be, the best true Center the Suns have ever had.

For decades, we watched Power Forwards (who had to cover for a soft Center) and decent Centers (James Edwards and Rich Kelley, for example) not given a real opportunity because of Jerry's obsession with small ball.

For the sake of the team, the fans and most posters on this board, Marcin Gortat deserves that opportunity. In a very short time, he has earned it. Even the coach came to recognize it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Being better than Lopez doesn't change anyones opinion on Gortat.

Your right is doesn't change anybody's opinion that he was playing like one of the top centers in the NBA.

His offense is basically dependent on others scoring garbage points or being set up for open layups because defenses did not respect him much in the pick and roll with Nash.

So now he scored all those points because defenses did not respect him? Right. Again, why is Frye better then Gortat when Frye was assisted more than Gortat?

Defensively he is average. His best skills are his toughness and above average rebounding.

Where are your facts? Defensively he stacks up against the best opposing centers in terms of opposing center scoring.

Over the last month of the season, Lopez looked downright awful, but shortly after the Gortat trade, I think the gap between the two players was nowhere near as large as many on this board thought. Now it's larger, thanks to Lopez's regression. Of course, regarding the question of who starts, we saw that the team benefited in other ways from having Lopez as the starter, as evidenced by the complete collapse they underwent once the switch was made.

If you look at what Gortat did in less time versus Lopez.....it is not even close. That was with Lopez playing with a healthy Nash last season and healthy Nash the 1st half of the season. For example, look at how many times Lopez getting most of the minutes last season and the 1st half of this season reached double digit rebounds. Look how many times he actually scored 10+. Look at his opposing center statistics. Look at where the team ranked with Lopez this season in almost every category and where the Suns finished after those minutes were taking away from Lopez.

Even during Lopez best stretch of basketball it didn't compare. Also, everybody got excited when Lopez scored while ignoring that he basically still stunk it up defensively and on the boards during that stretch. I think people were looking at Lopez through rose colored glasses.

The switch did nothing to make the team better or worse from a win perspective which is true. But the team was .500 before the trade and 2 games under post trade. The Suns had bigger holes than Center. Not having a SG that you could rely on, a PG that had 3 injuries for the 2nd half of the season were bigger contributors to why the team sputtered the 2nd half of the season. We will never know what a healthy Nash would have done to the starting lineup with Gortat in there.

Give me a healthy Nash and a real SG and the Suns win at least 8 to 10 more games IMO.

But Gortat is NOT a 15/10 guy on a good team. In fact, he would have almost zero role in an offensve with legitimately talented offensive starters, and having to resort to trash points, he'd struggle to get 7 points a game in decent minutes. In a good offense, he's a distraction and a guy that probably gets in the way more than he helps.

Then how did he managed to put up good number on occasion when given the minutes on a good magic team? Gortat has proven he is a good pick and roll player. Why would a team not take advantage of that no matter how good offensively? I have never seen a team not use pick and roll as a regular weapon if they have such a player.

Gortat is 27. He's done developing. He is what he is: A slightly skilled 6-11 brute with the kind of attitude you wish better bigs, like Amare, had. In fact Gortat's toughness is his best quality and why I'd love to keep him around. He's a good role player.

He improved and sky rocketed up the statistic charts the entire 2nd half of the season. Part of developing is getting time. Gentry and the entire staff feel that he has more room to improve. Will Gortat magically become the best center in the NBA? Ofcourse not but that doesn't mean he can't improve.

But if he's a focal point of any kind, that means your team is spending its summer figuring out lottery odds.

I am not sure anybody wants him to be a focal point. I think people want what they had seen this season. I guy that can score consistently 12 to 15 points and give you 10 boards per game. If he does that he still statistically ranks higher than most centers in the NBA.

I don't think because he almost pulled of 15/10 you can call him a focal point. It's not like the Suns were letting him touch the ball 40 times per game like Amare or Nash. Gortat was top 10 in efficiency among centers which means that usually when he touched it, something positive happened.

Gortat is never going to be the best center in the NBA nor is he going to probably crack top 5. We don't need him to if history says anything about center contribution. You just need a presence in the middle who can rebound and defend. If Gortat was to give us nothing more than that....he is a 100% keeper.

 

[Gaddabout]

He improved and sky rocketed up the statistic charts the entire 2nd half of the season. Part of developing is getting time. Gentry and the entire staff feel that he has more room to improve. Will Gortat magically become the best center in the NBA? Ofcourse not but that doesn't mean he can't improve.

Playing time works magic for a player's stats. If he was going to improve, he's had five years in the NBA to do it -- and much more incentive than now, where all he has to do is grimace a bit to keep his starting job.

I'm sure he's down at the gym everyday working on his weak spots. Every NBA player does. I'm sure Jared Dudley is down there with him. Are you expecting Dudley to suddenly develop a mid-range game during the off-season? I do tip my hat for the progress Gortat has made in his five years, because he had one of the lowest basketball IQs of anyone in his draft class -- he was clueless.

Players like Gortat and Dudley, what they lack is room to grow, because they've pretty much hit their ceiling already. Gortat's not going to gain a step or inches on his vertical. He's not going to suddenly start stroking 18" jumpers like Tim Duncan. Whatever improvements he makes will be so subtle you'll never notice them. What you see next season will be what you saw last season. What you see in two or three seasons will be what you saw last season.

 

[BC867]

If he was going to improve, he's had five years in the NBA to do it

Buried behind the best Center in the NBA, then the worst Center in the NBA until just a few weeks ago, and you say if Gortat was going to improve, he's had five years to do it.

What he had a chance to do was try to avoid getting sores on his butt while the best, then the worst, were out on the court with the rest of the starters.

 

[Superbone]

I'm sure Jared Dudley is down there with him. Are you expecting Dudley to suddenly develop a mid-range game during the off-season?

That's exactly what Dudley did last off-season. Maybe he hasn't perfected it but he worked on his fake and dribble in a couple steps to hit the mid-range jumper. And it showed.

Your opinion of these guys is quite low. The good basketball players DO improve their game each year.

 

[Covert Rain]

Playing time works magic for a player's stats. If he was going to improve, he's had five years in the NBA to do it -- and much more incentive than now, where all he has to do is grimace a bit to keep his starting job.

Huh? He played behind an all-star center with very limited minutes. There is nothing like actual playing time experience against starter level talent in the NBA. When he heard of the trade he was excited for the opportunity was motivated to prove to people he could be more than a backup. Now your questioning his motivation or incentive???

Come on.

Also, as we know (i.e. Lopez) getting heavy starter minutes doesn't always equal improved stats. I could muster up some examples of the last 5 years of players on the Suns roster that were giving ample minutes to show improvement simply with more minutes that didn't pan out.

I'm sure he's down at the gym everyday working on his weak spots. Every NBA player does. I'm sure Jared Dudley is down there with him. Are you expecting Dudley to suddenly develop a mid-range game during the off-season?

Glad you brought up Dudley. In the offseason Dudley worked on dribbling and the staff worked with him moving off the ball. If you didn't see the marked improvement in his game this season your crazy. It was noticeable that he worked on his game. It was noticeable that given the opportunity for more minutes that he worked on his game.

What I expect is giving a chance to play and working with coaches who expect more from him, that Gortat improve and work on aspects of his game like Dudley. Nobody expects him to become the best center in the league. If he shows the same level of improvement Dudley did I would be ecstatic.

Players like Gortat and Dudley, what they lack is room to grow, because they've pretty much hit their ceiling already. Gortat's not going to gain a step or inches on his vertical. He's not going to suddenly start stroking 18" jumpers like Tim Duncan. Whatever improvements he makes will be so subtle you'll never notice them. What you see next season will be what you saw last season. What you see in two or three seasons will be what you saw last season.

Again, his continual improvement throughout the season contradicts this. As we had seen, the more experience he got out there the more he continued to improve. The coaching staff during the season were trying to work with him around the rim and he looked better as the season progressed. If he continued to work on that and only slightly improves that is still an improvement.

Nobody expects Gortat to morph into the best center in the league. However, if what we see next season is even close to 15/10 he will rank as one of the best centers in the league.

As you stated above, even if he gives us what he did last season and two or three seasons from now......SOLD. I will take that in a heartbeat.

 

[BC867]

Nobody expects Gortat to morph into the best center in the league. However, if what we see next season is even close to 15/10 he will rank as one of the best centers in the league.

As you stated above, even if he gives us what he did last season and two or three seasons from now......SOLD. I will take that in a heartbeat.

Alvan Adams held down the Center position for the Suns for 13 seasons. He played in 80 games in his first season and 82 games in his final season.

He is in our Ring of Honor for his stats -- 14.1 PPG and 7.0 RPG.

Mark West played 6 full seasons with the Suns and averaged 6.9 PPG and 6.0 RPG.

Marcin came off the bench in 43 games last season and was a starter for 11, following his trade to the Suns. He averaged 12.9 PPG and 9.3 RPG.

Needless to say, Adams at 6'9" - 212 lbs. was hardly the inside presence that Gortat is at 6'11" - 240lbs. West was closer, listed as 6'10" - 230 lbs. (I thought his playing weight was 240.)

Marcin's 12.9 / 9.3 vs. Adams' 14.1 / 7.0 and West's 6.9 / 6.0, and some people want to run Marcin out of town. I just don't get it!

 

[BC867]

I also took a look at our career rebound leaders as a Phoenix Sun, whether they played here for one season or many more over our 43 years.

1.....F - Paul Silas.................12.1 RPG
2.....F - Charles Barkley.........11.5
3.....F - Shawn Marion...........10.0
4.....F - Maurice Lucas............9.7
5.....F - Curtis Perry...............9.5
6.....F - Truck Robinson...........9.5
7.....C - Jim Fox.....................9.5
8.....C - Marcin Gortat...........9.3
9.....F - Connie Hawkins..........9.0
10...C - Shaquille O'Neal.........9.0
11...F - Amare Stoudemire......8.9

Only one Suns Center has ever averaged more, and that was by 0.2 RPG. 'Not a bad start for Marcin. It has been long overdue at our Center position.

 

[slinslin]

Indeed, Marcin Gortat should be in the Ring of Honor.

 

[BC867]

Indeed, Marcin Gortat should be in the Ring of Honor.

LOL. So should you, slin. So should you.

 

[Covert Rain]

Indeed, Marcin Gortat should be in the Ring of Honor.

So says.....the master of ignoring facts or grasping at straws. That's not what he said. He was comparing his numbers to those of previous teams and those centers the organization considered good. You know sort of what I did comparing him to others in the league that are playing today.

You know...the sort of facts you like to ignore.