Steve Nash trade thread

[slinslin]

i'm still waiting to find out the rational for why Frye is a better player than Gortat.

Offensively there can't even be a question. Frye has range, very much improved his midrange game and even has a few moves in the post at least. More so than Gortat who I see as almost strictly a pick and roll player offensively.

Defensively I think Frye is average when he doesn't have to play out of position at center. Not that much worse than Gortat.

I couldn't care less for the argument I made that it doesn't matter if you add a star center to Frye or a star power forward to Gortat. There is no clearly better way.

That said I think Frye fits in better with a stud player in the post because he can stretch the floor. It is harder to find a great center that plays in the post but yeah it is hard to find an allstar PF too.

 

[Covert Rain]

Are you playing stupid on purpose?

Howard AND Frye or Gortat AND Griffin.

You have no choice of Howard and Griffin, sigh.

OMG....this is getting downright HI-larious.

So....you get to pick and choose the 4 players so it in a round about way fits your warped view but we can't pick and choose the 4 players?

Does that about sum it up? Stupid argument.

If you truly want to asses someones value you compare them with a common denominator (i.e. Howard, Gortat) and against their own peers. That is how you compare value. And you call me stupid? It doesn't work in this case because Gortat and Frye play different positions and you don't have a common denominator. You can't simply make up these arbitrary combos because then you have to factor in the talent of the other players your are selecting for your combo. That is not a real measurement of talent between Gortat and Frye.

The only real way to do that is to compare each player relative to where they stack up against their peer group. If you do that Frye doesn't stack up. Another way to look at it is if you removed said player from the team, which would be worse. There is no doubt that losing Gortat would be a bigger loss than Frye.

Your argument was not who would make the best combo of players. Your argument was that Frye was better than Gortat which you still have yet to prove.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Offensively there can't even be a question. Frye has range, very much improved his midrange game and even has a few moves in the post at least.

Frye can't post up Derek Fisher. He can shoot outside jumpers when he's wide open and set up by Nash. That's about it. he can't put the ball on the ground and he's got zero post up game.

More so than Gortat who I see as almost strictly a pick and roll player offensively.

I have no problem with this. He's one dimensional... just like Frye.

Defensively I think Frye is average when he doesn't have to play out of position at center. Not that much worse than Gortat.

this is a joke. Gortat is a VASTLY superior rebounder and defender. Frye gets pushed around down low like a rag-doll.

Frye doesn't really excel at anything that a PF/C should. At least Gortat's a very good rebounder. That alone makes him better and more valuable than a jump-shooting non-rebounding PF.

 

[Covert Rain]

Frye can't post up Derek Fisher. He can shoot outside jumpers when he's wide open and set up by Nash. That's about it. he can't put the ball on the ground and he's got zero post up game.



I have no problem with this. He's one dimensional... just like Frye.



this is a joke. Gortat is a VASTLY superior rebounder and defender. Frye gets pushed around down low like a rag-doll.

Frye doesn't really excel at anything that a PF/C should. At least Gortat's a very good rebounder. That alone makes him better and more valuable than a jump-shooting non-rebounding PF.

slinslin AGAIN has no proof to back up what he says. Look at Fry's #'s as a starter and Gortats. Frye's #'s don't stack up even if you wanted to do a straight up comparison which is stupid.

Relative to their positions he has no proof Frye is better.

 

[slinslin]

Frye doesn't really excel at anything that a PF/C should. At least Gortat's a very good rebounder. That alone makes him better and more valuable than a jump-shooting non-rebounding PF.

Look Frye is not a PF/C he is strictly a PF anything else is just playing him out of position and doing him no favor. Frye excels at shooting and showed improvement in all other areas this year.
As a shooter at the 4 he is offensively a perfect fit with a post up player and at at he 4 he has good size and doesn't really get pushed around that much.

slinslin AGAIN has no proof to back up what he says. Look at Fry's #'s as a starter and Gortats. Frye's #'s don't stack up even if you wanted to do a straight up comparison which is stupid.

Relative to their positions he has no proof Frye is better.

Frye averaged 14/7.2/1.3/0.6/1 as a starting PF over 56 games
Gortat averaged 14/11/0.5/0.5/1.3 as a starting C over 13 games

Gortat averaged 13.3/9.3 in february, Frye averaged 16.3/8.4 in february
Gortat averaged 15.3/10.8 in march, Frye averaged 14.6/7.9 in march

Not sure where you get the idea that their statistical contribution is not comparable. Taking into account that even when Frye starts as a 4 he still had to play minutes at Center.

 

[gordon]

Uh oh, a week ago or so I got blasted for saying that realistically Gortat at best is a top 15-21 center in the league.

Basically he has no moves offensively that he can create on his own, gets spoon fed by Nash so his scoring and efficiency is infalted, he is 27 not very young, his total stats are not very meaningful because the Suns have been bottom feeders throughout since the trade, he came to the worst rebounding team in the league so naturally the rebounding numbers for an above average rebounder would go up unlike when you play with Dwight Howard or other great rebounders.

On a good team he is a backup I agree. On a bad team he is a starter. Top 15-21 is about right.

To think that some people here think we shouldn't trade him for a top 5 pick or better yet Derrick Williams is just insane.

Here's a thread about TOP 10 centers in the league on RealGM:
forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1107278

A lot of people think that Gortat is a top 10 center (not only on this board). IMO he's top 9-12 in the NBA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Look Frye is not a PF/C he is strictly a PF anything else is just playing him out of position and doing him no favor. Frye excels at shooting and showed improvement in all other areas this year.
As a shooter at the 4 he is offensively a perfect fit with a post up player and at at he 4 he has good size and doesn't really get pushed around that much.

that's great... so he's offensively the perfect fit for... TWO TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. Unless you're going to try and sell me that outside of Howard and Bynum (when healthy) that there are really good post-up Cs. Good luck trying to prove that. The fact that the league is pretty much devoid of stud 5s who can play D and have post up games pretty much makes the above completely meaningless.

and no matter what you say about him improving as a post up player, it doesn't matter if it's not the truth. again, the guy has problems posting up Derek Fisher... he never even TRIES to post up a PF.

Frye averaged 14/7.2/1.3/0.6/1 as a starting PF over 56 games
Gortat averaged 14/11/0.5/0.5/1.3 as a starting C over 13 games

Gortat averaged 13.3/9.3 in february, Frye averaged 16.3/8.4 in february
Gortat averaged 15.3/10.8 in march, Frye averaged 14.6/7.9 in march

Not sure where you get the idea that their statistical contribution is not comparable. Taking into account that even when Frye starts as a 4 he still had to play minutes at Center.

how you can't the statistical difference in a guy who averaged 9.3 rebounds per game versus 6.7 rebounds per game is beyond me.

 

[desertdawg]

How many centers average 15 points and 10+ rebounds while bringing some decent defense? If Nash stays, Gortat will have those #s easy this next year. So where will you rank him then Slin?

 

[Cheesewater]

Quick, get the Suns FO on the line...

If Gortat is only a top 20 center but they can get a top 5 draft pick for him, and Frye is better than Gortat...holy crap! #1 overall here we come!

 

[Mainstreet]

Too bad Lopez did not pan out at center. Gortat is the one player the Suns could use in a Larry Nance type trade and bring back some nice pieces.

 

[Covert Rain]

at the 4 he has good size and doesn't really get pushed around that much.

Which player are you watching? He usually get pushed around like a rag doll.

Not sure where you get the idea that their statistical contribution is not comparable. Taking into account that even when Frye starts as a 4 he still had to play minutes at Center.

Funny because you keep saying different things. First Frye was just as good a player, then Frye was better and now Frye is "comparable" statistically.

Which is it?

So your saying "comparable stats" proves your point? How?

Statistically your point that Frye is the better player is not supported. The statistics bear out that Gortat was in fact the better player overall. You can spin it all you want. That is a fact.

What below supports your position?

Time as a Sun this year (total time):
Frye 12.7 PPG / 6.7 RPG
Gortat 13.4 PPG / 9.6 RPG

Overall Gortat had better #'s all around and rebounding wasn't close let alone overall defensive play.

January
Frye 12.5 PPG / 6.1 RPG
Gortat 13.3 PPG / 9.3 RPG

In Jan Gortat scored more and rebounding wasn't close.

February
Frye 16.3 PPG / 8.4 RPG
Gortat 13.3 PPG / 9.3 RPG

Fry average more points still lagged on the boards.

March
Frye 14.6 PPG / 7.9 RPG
Gortat 15.3 PPG / 10.8 RPG

Gortat averaged more points and rebounds.

April
Frye 12.6 PPG / 5.8 RPG
Gortat 15.0 PPG / 10.6 RPG

Again, not even close.

There was only one month Frye averaged more points that Gortat. Frye never averaged more rebounds than Gortat and Gortat was slightly the better scorer overall.

When you factor in Fry's average at best defense and Gortat being the superior defender....... I will just say this again......where is your proof?

How does Frye rank overall among PF compared to where Gortat does against other centers?

Here is a hint.....that doesn't support your point either.

 

[Gaddabout]

Fact remains if you're starting either of those guys at any position, you're not championship material. Blech on both of them, though I prefer Gortat, his attitude, and his intensity over anything Frye brings to the table. At least Gortat ACTS like a winner.

 

[Covert Rain]

Fact remains if you're starting either of those guys at any position, you're not championship material. Blech on both of them, though I prefer Gortat, his attitude, and his intensity over anything Frye brings to the table. At least Gortat ACTS like a winner.

Gortat is close to being a legit 15 and 10 guy (he was the last two months of the season). There isn't a title contending team that wouldn't take that in a heartbeat from the Center position.

There is only one guy in the entire league averaging more than 15 and 10 (Howard) and only 3 other guys besides Gortat close to 15 and 10. Hardly "blech".

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm telling you... Orlando is going to be DESPERATE to do anything they can to make Dwight happy and Jameer Nelson just freaking sucks. they're in the same exact position Cleveland was in when we bent over for them and gave them Shaq for free. I'm still mystified that we didn't even get one down the road first rounder for Shaq considering how desperate Cleveland was.

We need to try and pull the same thing off with Orlando, only this time, actually GET a first rounder... like a 2014 first rounder, when Dwight's gone and that team is an abomination.

not even trying to move Steve when there ARE desperate teams out there who are desperate for a PGs is beyond me.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm telling you... Orlando is going to be DESPERATE to do anything they can to make Dwight happy and Jameer Nelson just freaking sucks. they're in the same exact position Cleveland was in when we bent over for them and gave them Shaq for free. I'm still mystified that we didn't even get one down the road first rounder for Shaq considering how desperate Cleveland was.

We need to try and pull the same thing off with Orlando, only this time, actually GET a first rounder... like a 2014 first rounder, when Dwight's gone and that team is an abomination.

not even trying to move Steve when there ARE desperate teams out there who are desperate for a PGs is beyond me.

Good point cheesebeef. Sooner or later the Suns front office needs to stop the bleeding. The only way to change the perception that this team's front office is a bunch of push overs is to show some damn marbles. Show some aggressiveness on our part.

 

[BC867]

I would rather have Dwight Howard and Channing Frye than Marcin Gortat and Blake Griffin. Get it?

I've been chuckling at this debate tactic of needing to imagine Frye as a tag-along with the best Center in the league to convince people that he is a better player than Gortat.

Marcin is a more consistent scorer than Frye. A better rebounder, both on paper and in skills. A better defender. A better team leader. And he has displayed that in less starts at Center than either Lopez or Frye have had for the Suns.

Trying to fantasize Dwight Howard as a Sun doesn't change that. Frye helps the team spread the floor when he is playing 23 feet from the basket on offense and putting the ball in the hoop.

When his shot is off, he offers nothing else to the team, especially to the position of Power Forward, where is is soft at best. Even if Gortat doesn't score more than 10 points in an off-night, he offers a lot more in the paint.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm telling you... Orlando is going to be DESPERATE to do anything they can to make Dwight happy and Jameer Nelson just freaking sucks. they're in the same exact position Cleveland was in when we bent over for them and gave them Shaq for free. I'm still mystified that we didn't even get one down the road first rounder for Shaq considering how desperate Cleveland was.

We need to try and pull the same thing off with Orlando, only this time, actually GET a first rounder... like a 2014 first rounder, when Dwight's gone and that team is an abomination.

not even trying to move Steve when there ARE desperate teams out there who are desperate for a PGs is beyond me.

And what happens if Howard decides to stay in Orlando? What are we gonna do with their 2014 first-round pick?

 

[SirStefan32]

I've been chuckling at this debate tactic of needing to imagine Frye as a tag-along with the best Center in the league to convince people that he is a better player than Gortat.

Marcin is a more consistent scorer than Frye. A better rebounder, both on paper and in skills. A better defender. A better team leader. And he has displayed that in less starts at Center than either Lopez or Frye have had for the Suns.

Trying to fantasize Dwight Howard as a Sun doesn't change that. Frye helps the team spread the floor when he is playing 23 feet from the basket on offense and putting the ball in the hoop.

When his shot is off, he offers nothing else to the team, especially to the position of Power Forward, where is is soft at best. Even if Gortat doesn't score more than 10 points in an off-night, he offers a lot more in the paint.

It is blatantly obvious to anyone who's watched five games that Gortat is much better than Frye. Slin just has some irrational hatred for Gortat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And what happens if Howard decides to stay in Orlando? What are we gonna do with their 2014 first-round pick?

he's not going to... and if he does... that team's gonna be exactly what they are right now - middle of the road.

bottom line, you've got to take some risks and it's really not much of a risk getting rid of a guy who's not helping you accomplish anything now or in the future anyway. at least we'd get a pick out of it.

 

[Folster]

Fact remains if you're starting either of those guys at any position, you're not championship material. Blech on both of them, though I prefer Gortat, his attitude, and his intensity over anything Frye brings to the table. At least Gortat ACTS like a winner.

This statement just blew my mind. Let's run down the list of starting centers still playing in the playoffs: Noah, J. O'Neal, Ilgauskas, Collins, McDyess/Blair, Gasol, Bynum, Chandler, and Perkins. Gortat is more than capable of being a starting center for a contender. Four of the nine teams remaining would give their left nut to have Gortat manning the center position for them right now.

 

[carey]

This statement just blew my mind. Let's run down the list of starting centers still playing in the playoffs: Noah, J. O'Neal, Ilgauskas, Collins, McDyess/Blair, Gasol, Bynum, Chandler, and Perkins. Gortat is more than capable of being a starting center for a contender. Four of the nine teams remaining would give their left nut to have Gortat manning the center position for them right now.

Yeah, Matt usually makes such quality posts, but I have no idea what's causing him to say this stuff. It's ridiculous to suggest Gortat isn't a starting center in this league and he could start for the majority of playoff teams in my opinion. Boston, Miami, Atlanta and even Chicago would kill for him right now.

 

[mojorizen7]

Why is it that a good portion of Suns fans continually vastly overrate basketball players that are only good at scoring and do little else?

Conversely why do these same fans dismiss basketball players that can contribute on both ends of the floor as being "role players?"

>>>>>>>> Culture.

Frye is a quality role-player BACKUP BIGMAN...and Gortat is a quality starting 5 in today's league...........open your eyes people.

 

[desertdawg]

Fact remains if you're starting either of those guys at any position, you're not championship material. Blech on both of them, though I prefer Gortat, his attitude, and his intensity over anything Frye brings to the table. At least Gortat ACTS like a winner.

I aint gonna poop on Frye because Slin is making some crazy comparison . Frye had a great year, he even worked on being a more powerful power forward, I didn't see that one coming. 2 chicken dinners and a grip of clutch shots, he just needs to wear a cup with his new found cahones.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This statement just blew my mind. Let's run down the list of starting centers still playing in the playoffs: Noah, J. O'Neal, Ilgauskas, Collins, McDyess/Blair, Gasol, Bynum, Chandler, and Perkins. Gortat is more than capable of being a starting center for a contender. Four of the nine teams remaining would give their left nut to have Gortat manning the center position for them right now.

agreed. you put him on Boston, SA or Miami and they actually probably have a legit chance of beating LA... hell, are probably favored to do so... without him, they'd all get drilled.

 

[slinslin]

You think Miami is going to get grilled against the Lakers?