Steve Nash trade thread

[ASUCHRIS]

Yeah, Matt usually makes such quality posts, but I have no idea what's causing him to say this stuff. It's ridiculous to suggest Gortat isn't a starting center in this league and he could start for the majority of playoff teams in my opinion. Boston, Miami, Atlanta and even Chicago would kill for him right now.

Yep...maybe Slin hacked his account?

 

[slinslin]

Maybe you explain what great skills Gortat has? As far as I can see he is an above average rebounder, can set picks and after some games stopped blowing wide open layups and even hit uncontested medium range shots sometimes.

If Gortat really was as good as some think we would not have been a worse team after the trade.

Certainly I would give him a lot more credit if he could put up those numbers on a winning team when it matters and without Nash setting him up all the time.
Replace Marc Gasol on the Grizzlies with Gortat and I doubt Gortat would put up more than 8/7 or something. Certainly much less that what he can average on a fast paced team here with Nash and little talent.

Averaging 15ppg as the almost main option as silly as that sounds on a Nash lead team that played basically .333 ball with him doesn't impress me one bit.

I also don't think he is a great defender, he is an average defender and a good rebounder. But he barely blocks or alters shots.

 

[dziki]

Slin - I know that I`m not appropriate person to tell it but ... man, why you have so big problem with Gortat? Ok - I`m from Poland, I started watch PHX matches after this trade and I was supporting Utah when I was younger ... so I`m not a person who can tell some improper things about you or any other PHX fans. But still - I`m here half year, I wish you all the best and I have a hope that Suns will be much stronger next season. I think that I`m old enough to know if something is wrong or not so because of that I`ll ask you - do you really have some problem with Gortat or you just playin` with us in every single post including Gortat`s name?

I don`t know really what is going on because I thought that this kind of haters are usually connected with trollin` and other internet **** stuff. But you looked like a person who watch some basket games and understand this game. So why the hell you`re trying to undermine Gortat`s position? If dozens tell something this may not be true but if you`re not a genius and all of the proves show one result could be real.

I wrote a post on my first days here, where I said that I have (a dream ;-) ) a hope that Gortat will play as good as starter in this league should play. I told you that I think he propably would not be this kind of mega-star in NBA. After few months he showed a lot which shocked or surprised most of his fans. But he still is not Greatest Center in the World, not even Dwight Howard the second. So what? Ok, for example I knew that he can play much better than in Orlando but still - he played really impressive half year and it looks like he can play even better. I think that there is no person here who will defend him if he will play as armless next season. Even me. I don`t know how it looks somewhere else but I believe that one have to work really hard (and show it, in this case) to achieve greatness. If he will play crappy season it could mean that maybe you are right. But now you`re indisputably wrong, it`s obviously for most of us.
I believe in a people work and mind. So when Gortat showed that you can start playin` basket around junior age and be really important piece of one of the best NBA team ... it is like proving my life-idea.
In US you are calling it "american dream", aren`t you?;-)

 

[jibikao]

I really think the most disappointing thing in this season is Lopez and to some degree Dragic. Had Lopez improved or stayed at the same level he was last year before the injury, Suns would have made it to the #8 spot IMO.

Dragic.. I really don't know what happened to him. I really liked him.

Lopez just seems like a joke right now and that's sad. He started only because he has fragile confidence. Gortat can easily start over him.

I think Gortat is the best addition to the team. Vince Carter is a downgrade for sure.

Gortat just needs to add more post moves and toughness in his offense and he should be ok. He is a center after all, not a power forward. A "good" center is so rare these days. Gortar is at least "good".

 

[slinslin]

I don't have a problem with Gortat in particular. I don't like anyone on this team right now save Dudley (as a role player, well I guess I like Gortat as a role player like I said he is a top15-21 center in the league in my opinion and that is not too bad, I guess I also like Frye as a role player).

I wouldn't be satisfied with any of these as starters however and always look to improve those positions unless the other 3 starters were Lebron, Wade and Bosh..

I just think Gortat is overhyped because he has not proven anything so far (except that he is an above average rebounder).
You CANT prove anything on a team as bad as we were and playing alongside Nash definitely makes him look better.

Before I would even consider Gortat a top player I would like to see him play when we actually are competetive. Opponents adjust their gameplan against him and Gortat being capable of being more than just a finisher basically. If he can master those tasks then we can talk about Gortat as a top player at the position. Before that he has 2 good months on a .333 team which is meaningless.

And I don't believe any of that talk that he just needs to improve his skills. How many 27 year olds in the NBA have managed to improve considerably from almost no post moves to post moves for example?

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I don't believe any of that talk that he just needs to improve his skills. How many 27 year olds in the NBA have managed to improve considerably from almost no post moves to post moves for example?

um... isn't it your contention that is EXACTLY what Channing Frye just did? your constant contradiction of your own arguments cracks me up.

 

[slinslin]

um... isn't it your contention that is EXACTLY what Channing Frye just did? your constant contradiction of your own arguments cracks me up.

Frye actually had some of those skills already when he came into the league he was a totally different player compared to what he has been so far for the Suns. He wasn't a shooting specialist for Portland or New York.

He was soft but he played inside.

 

[BC867]

I think that some posters who supported Lopez starting over Gortat once Marcin arrived just can't admit that it wasn't the best approach.

Even Gentry gave in. That's a fact. If the Coach did, it should be a piece of cake for a fan to do the same.

Everyone's opinion counts. The numbers are solidly with Gortat over Lopez now. Not only as an improvement over Lopez, but as a solid Center around whom the Suns can build (hopefully) a solid defense, as well as an intelligent and mature low post presence.

At minimum, if we added a backup Center and a strong Power Forward, we'd be a far better team than the one that was eliminated from the playoffs. Anything beyond that would just make us better and better.

Removing Gortat from the equation would eliminate any hope. So would keeping Lopez, which would result in wearing out Gortat as we did once he arrived. Just as the decline of Nash's stamina over full seasons have done.

 

[SirStefan32]

Frye actually had some of those skills already when he came into the league he was a totally different player compared to what he has been so far for the Suns. He wasn't a shooting specialist for Portland or New York.

He was soft but he played inside.

What the hell are you talking about? He could not post up Fisher or Parker!

 

[Cheesebeef]

What the hell are you talking about? He could not post up Fisher or Parker!

he's talking out of his ass.

Frye never had any post up moves which is why his game was meaningless until he got here.

 

[slinslin]

I think that some posters who supported Lopez starting over Gortat once Marcin arrived just can't admit that it wasn't the best approach.

Even Gentry gave in. That's a fact. If the Coach did, it should be a piece of cake for a fan to do the same.

And we played our worst basketball when Gortat started that is fact. We had a 9-17 record or something after the allstar game.

Starting made no difference. Gortat played the exact same minutes.

So I don't see what Lopez starting over Gortat could have possibly cost the Suns except that it is fact that they were more successful then.

 

[Manu4five]

Hmmm I find this strange. Of course you should start Gortat. He is your second best player after Nash so of course he should start. Your Lopez is an ok backup C.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And we played our worst basketball when Gortat started that is fact. We had a 9-17 record or something after the allstar game.

Starting made no difference. Gortat played the exact same minutes.

So I don't see what Lopez starting over Gortat could have possibly cost the Suns except that it is fact that they were more successful then.

Yeah and it had nothing to do with the fact that Steve Nash went from playing like the best PG in the game to playing like a scrub. Losing our starting power forward for a handful of critical games didn't help much either. We aren't a very talented team, certainly not talented enough to basically lose our best player for half the season.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

If Gortat really was as good as some think we would not have been a worse team after the trade.

Huh? So your saying if you have a good player your team can't play bad? Better tell that to Kobe, Jordan, Barkley and slew of other all stars who played on bad teams and one point or another. Not that Gortat is on their level but it shows you that you can be a very good player on a bad team.

The Suns were without a healthy Nash who played like crap and they traded away our starting Shooting Guard that was playing like one of the best Shooting Guards in the league since the previous season.

Explain to me how that has anything to do with Gortat. Seriously....dude your reaching once again.

Certainly I would give him a lot more credit if he could put up those numbers on a winning team when it matters and without Nash setting him up all the time.

Yet you praise Frye for being the better player than Gortat but he was assisted on 83% of his shots and played on the same team. So on one hand your "impressed" with Frye but not Gortat. Funny.

You keep contradicting yourself. You say you don't have anything against Gortat but blast him for something that other players on this team benefit from.....and then claim they are better.

Hilarious.

Averaging 15ppg as the almost main option as silly as that sounds on a Nash lead team that played basically .333 ball with him doesn't impress me one bit.

Yet using a players (Lopez's) +/-, praising guys like like Fry who get more help from Nash, and ignoring the fact that Lopez couldn't put up the same numbers playing with a healthy Nash versus a hobbled one that Gortat did (and putting up better #'s) is not silly.

 

[elindholm]

Hmmm I find this strange. Of course you should start Gortat. He is your second best player after Nash so of course he should start.

One would think that a Spurs fan, of all people, would understand the value of sometimes bringing a very good player off of the bench. You did it for years with Ginobili, after all.

 

[Covert Rain]

I also don't think he is a great defender, he is an average defender and a good rebounder. But he barely blocks or alters shots.

Then your not looking at his defensive numbers. He doesn't get many blocks but he certainly did alter shots in the games that I had seen and defensive is much more than about shot blocks.

If Gortat is average that how to you explain the Suns coming from last place in Point play defensively up to #25 in post play after the trade? If Gortat is an average defender please explain how we went from #30 in the NBA at defending against opposing centers to #24 post trade? All of this in 1/2 season.

Neither is dramatic given only 1/2 season and with tissue soft PF's playing next to him but the second we took those minutes away from Lopez the team showed immediate improvement post trade in that area. FACT.

If Gortat is so average why does he match the other top centers in the NBA in opposing Center scoring defense? Everyone considers Chandler (opposing center PER 17.4), Noah (opposing center PER 20.2), Perkins (opposing center PER 15.3), KG (opposing center per 20.0) and your new boy Gasol (Opposing Center Per 17.9) good defenders yet Gortat matches them at 15.8. There is only one shut down Center defender in the entire NBA and that is Howard. He holds opposing centers to 11.8.

Explain how all the above points to "average".

I don't have a problem with Gortat in particular. I don't like anyone on this team right now save Dudley (as a role player, well I guess I like Gortat as a role player like I said he is a top15-21 center in the league in my opinion and that is not too bad, I guess I also like Frye as a role player).

That is a lie and you know it. All the time I have seen you on this board, I have never seen you go after a player directly or indirectly more that Gortat. Who you trying to kid?

Gortat statistically is top 10 not top 15 and even if he was top 15, you even saying that you don't like a top 15 center is a joke. There are very few teams that wouldn't like a top 15 center let alone a top 10.

I just think Gortat is overhyped because he has not proven anything so far (except that he is an above average rebounder).

Let's look at the things we can in FACT prove:

• Team improves in paint offensively with his addition.
• Team improves in paint defensively with his addition.
• Team improves overall rebounding with his addition.
• Team becomes one of the top rebounding teams from the center position.
• Team becomes one of the most efficient teams from the center position.
• Team becomes one of the best scoring teams from the center position.
• Team becomes one of the best defending teams from the center position.
• Team becomes one of the best double double teams from the center position.

All of these things happened AFTER taking time away from Lopez, Nash being injured, losing JRich and going through a stretch without Frye.
Yep...slinslin.....sounds like he has not proved anything so far.

 

[BC867]

Yep...slinslin.....sounds like he has not proved anything so far.

It's just like people who fib. Once someone tells an untruth, they keep doing it to cover up the first one.

Rather than saying that they jumped to the wrong conclusion (or backed the wrong horse) and enjoying what Gortat means to our team for the future. Hey, no one's perfect.

I'm looking forward next season to rooting for the best Suns center they've had in their 43 seasons. Especially if the FO gets a backup (legitimate) Center that they have confidence in playing twelve minutes per game, so Gortat won't be worn out, as they have worn out Nash.

 

[Covert Rain]

Before I would even consider Gortat a top player

I just stopped there. We don't need you to. You can't prove otherwise at the Center position.

And I don't believe any of that talk that he just needs to improve his skills. How many 27 year olds in the NBA have managed to improve considerably from almost no post moves to post moves for example?

Which is stupid because how many players do you know didn't get a chance because they were sitting behind an all star Center for that long? Also, your statement is completely contradicted by his continual improvement all season long.

And we played our worst basketball when Gortat started that is fact. We had a 9-17 record or something after the allstar game.

With a hobbled Nash and a missing huge piece from last year in JRich. This team had more holes than Center. I could give you a laundry list of good to great players on bad teams. It's not a reflection on those players skills that their teams didn't win. Why is Gortat an exception in your head? Oh...right.....never mind.

Starting made no difference. Gortat played the exact same minutes.

So I don't see what Lopez starting over Gortat could have possibly cost the Suns except that it is fact that they were more successful then.

Again, I proved you wrong last time you stated this. The Suns were playing from behind in much larger margins from both scoring and rebounding when Lopez was out there. Gentry even later admitted that playing catchup so often at the start of each half played a toll on the team.

You just had to bring everything back to Lopez didn't you?

 

[Errntknght]

Nice job DarenG... you've nailed it down very thoroughly. (Not that its going stop slin.)

 

[Superbone]

That is a lie and you know it. All the time I have seen you on this board, I have never seen you go after a player directly or indirectly more that Gortat. Who you trying to kid?

I'm starting to think it's a nationality thing. Maybe a German/Polish animosity?

http://dalje.com/en-world/merkel-ally-sees-german-animosity-towards-poland/240952

The subject of the 12.5 million Germans expelled from Hungary, Czechoslovakia and German territory handed to Poland after the Nazi defeat has strained relations between Germany and Poland ever since the war, in which 6 million Poles died.

 

[slinslin]

I'm starting to think it's a nationality thing. Maybe a German/Polish animosity?

http://dalje.com/en-world/merkel-ally-sees-german-animosity-towards-poland/240952

Uhoh I have many Polish friends, stop living 60 years in the past.

If anything it is Polish yellow press newspapers printing pictures of behaeded German soccer players on their covers and not the other way around.

I have nothing against Gortat but most people here are simply overrating the guy. Maybe it is understandable considering how terrible we were to hold on the lone somewhat bright spot of a forgettable season.

 

[BC867]

... to hold on the lone somewhat bright spot of a forgettable season.

Bingo! Welcome aboard.

 

[Covert Rain]

Uhoh I have many Polish friends, stop living 60 years in the past.

If anything it is Polish yellow press newspapers printing pictures of behaeded German soccer players on their covers and not the other way around.

I have nothing against Gortat but most people here are simply overrating the guy. Maybe it is understandable considering how terrible we were to hold on the lone somewhat bright spot of a forgettable season.

Holy crap.....progress slinslin. The first step to recovery is actually looking at the facts.

 

[slinslin]

Bingo! Welcome aboard.

If we had a decent team nobody would rate Gortat that highly.

Even an average player can shine when you surround him with enough crappy players, see Kevin Love.

 

[Superbone]

Uhoh I have many Polish friends, stop living 60 years in the past.

Glad to hear it!