Still like the Marbury trade?
- Thread starter elindholm
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George O'Brien
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I thought his 11 of 20 and 33 points against the Warriors was nice.
OP
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elindholm
edited for content
Let's remember what the Suns traded for:
1. A pospect center projected to go in the mid lottery before issues came up about his European contract.
Which makes him, based on that, one or two notches below Tsakalidis.
2. The best guard in Europe.
Oh please. There are probably eight to ten "best guards in Europe," depending on whose publicist happens to be getting press at the moment. Remember how great Antoine Rigadeau was supposed to be?
3. One 2004 first round draft pick
4. A future first round draft pick
Neither of which is at all likely to be in the top 5, where franchise players are found. (The Suns' own pick may well be in the top 5, and that is probably the single most tangible benefit of the trade.)
5. Enough cap room to sign free agents above the mid cap range in 2004
The difference between a $7 million per year player and one at the MLE is not that great, in my opinion. Anyone who is at that level tries to find a team willing to offer them more, but if they can't, the MLE isn't bad money. The Suns were unwilling to spend the MLE before, but it isn't that they were unable to.
After initially defending Marbury and the contract, I have to admit I began to wonder if this contract was a mistake.
I didn't like the contract extension, and the decision to trade Marbury away isn't at the core of my complaint. The decision to trade him away for zero proven talent (unless you count McDyess) was a terrible error. You just don't trade away that kind of player for a few spins on the roulette wheel. And if you can't get a better deal right away, you wait until you can.
1. A pospect center projected to go in the mid lottery before issues came up about his European contract.
Which makes him, based on that, one or two notches below Tsakalidis.
2. The best guard in Europe.
Oh please. There are probably eight to ten "best guards in Europe," depending on whose publicist happens to be getting press at the moment. Remember how great Antoine Rigadeau was supposed to be?
3. One 2004 first round draft pick
4. A future first round draft pick
Neither of which is at all likely to be in the top 5, where franchise players are found. (The Suns' own pick may well be in the top 5, and that is probably the single most tangible benefit of the trade.)
5. Enough cap room to sign free agents above the mid cap range in 2004
The difference between a $7 million per year player and one at the MLE is not that great, in my opinion. Anyone who is at that level tries to find a team willing to offer them more, but if they can't, the MLE isn't bad money. The Suns were unwilling to spend the MLE before, but it isn't that they were unable to.
After initially defending Marbury and the contract, I have to admit I began to wonder if this contract was a mistake.
I didn't like the contract extension, and the decision to trade Marbury away isn't at the core of my complaint. The decision to trade him away for zero proven talent (unless you count McDyess) was a terrible error. You just don't trade away that kind of player for a few spins on the roulette wheel. And if you can't get a better deal right away, you wait until you can.
George O'Brien
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But can you also get rid of the Hardway contract at the same time? The Suns were facing having salaries of $65 million which would be going up once the younger players come off their rookie contracts. Stephon's salary was at least part of the problem.
We have gone through a similar debate about Marion. There are some people who think the Suns should simply dump Marion for cap space because he is overpaid. But I would argue that Marbury is overpaid by about the same amount that Marion is ($2.5 to $3 million). Speedy Claxton makes only $3 million!
When the Suns dumped Marbury's contract, they got solid prospects and draft picks. Plus they got rid of Hardaway's contract and Trybanski's contract. All Atlanta got for their best two players was a pure salary dump.
Whatever...In case you havn't noticed almost anything done in the NBA has an element of risk and gamble to it. If one is going to play it nice and safe at all times then no guts no glory I say. Colangelos took an educated gamble....a gamble that you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about what will pan out or not. This whole thread is one big insult to Suns fans intelligence because we are asked to judge a trade which is only partially complete. How about some patience??
Also the NBA is a business not a crusade....Excuse the heck out of the Colangelos for wanting to remain profitable.
George O'Brien
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There was only one team in the lottery that was serious about Jake. Cleveland was expected to take him but took Mihm instead. Other than that, I'm not sure he was that highly rated.
In any case, I'm not sure that Jake was that bad a prospect before his back injury. His problem before his back injury was not on defense, but rather than he had no idea what was going on with the "triangle" offense.
In 2001-02 he averaged 5.6 rpg and scored 7.3 ppg in 23.6 minutes per game. The same year Dampier averaged 5.3 rpg and scored 7.6 ppg while playing 23.8 minutes.
I contend that the assumption that drafting Big Jake was a blunder based on the belief that his physical ability was not effected by his injury. I suspect that he would never have been a starter type player, but he could have been a very good role player if he had been healthy. That is the best you can hope for when drafting in the 20's.
Even before Amare Stoudemire and Cabarkapa went down the Phoenix Suns were 8-10 and 12-21 when Marbury was traded. Since the trade the Suns have gone 6-15. However they really haven't had Cabarkapa for any of those games, and Amare has only played in 9 of those games since the trade. With Amare Stoudemire and without Marbury the Suns have gone 4-6.
What does all of that mean? To me it means that the Suns were only very slightly better with Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway than they are today. Yet the Colangelos are going to save $20-25 million just this season by making that trade.
I will really get into an argument about how good Lampe is or is going to be since none of us had seen enough of him to truly know. Same goes for Vujanic. We'll have to wait until at least next season to judge how valuable those guys were in the trade.
Every year we hear about how weak the draft is going to be. Last year at this time everybody was predicting that outside of the top three picks the 2003 draft would be the worst in a long time. So far it looks like a nice, solid draft.
The thing I like the most about the trade is the flexibility. Even if the Phoenix Suns still make a huge splash in the free-agent market this summer they should have the financial flexibility and enough young prospects and draft picks to be a player through the trades. At best with Marbury the Phoenix Suns were a sixth or seventh seed playoff team with little flexibility and in the financial crapper. Realistically they were a borderline playoff team in the financial crapper.
BTW, the chances of the Lakers accepting Shawn Marion in a sign and trade are about as good as my chances of making the Suns roster next season. I believe the Lakers would rather let Kobe Bryant walk.
I still like the trade. The thing that is frustratingly the most about this team at this point is that they are playing this trapping, double teaming defense 90% of the time. It's getting them killed on the boards, and for the most part they aren't very good at it anyhow. Mike D'Antoni talked soon after his promotion about his desire to play man-to-man defense. I hope that is still the case. I'm really hoping that as the team gets healthier and healthier we see more and more man-to-man defense.
Joe Mama
What does all of that mean? To me it means that the Suns were only very slightly better with Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway than they are today. Yet the Colangelos are going to save $20-25 million just this season by making that trade.
I will really get into an argument about how good Lampe is or is going to be since none of us had seen enough of him to truly know. Same goes for Vujanic. We'll have to wait until at least next season to judge how valuable those guys were in the trade.
Every year we hear about how weak the draft is going to be. Last year at this time everybody was predicting that outside of the top three picks the 2003 draft would be the worst in a long time. So far it looks like a nice, solid draft.
The thing I like the most about the trade is the flexibility. Even if the Phoenix Suns still make a huge splash in the free-agent market this summer they should have the financial flexibility and enough young prospects and draft picks to be a player through the trades. At best with Marbury the Phoenix Suns were a sixth or seventh seed playoff team with little flexibility and in the financial crapper. Realistically they were a borderline playoff team in the financial crapper.
BTW, the chances of the Lakers accepting Shawn Marion in a sign and trade are about as good as my chances of making the Suns roster next season. I believe the Lakers would rather let Kobe Bryant walk.
I still like the trade. The thing that is frustratingly the most about this team at this point is that they are playing this trapping, double teaming defense 90% of the time. It's getting them killed on the boards, and for the most part they aren't very good at it anyhow. Mike D'Antoni talked soon after his promotion about his desire to play man-to-man defense. I hope that is still the case. I'm really hoping that as the team gets healthier and healthier we see more and more man-to-man defense.
Joe Mama
Errntknght
Registered User
I still like the trade. We gave the Knicks proven goods for unproven ones so it looks favorable to them, which is the same now as when the trade was made. Why would anyone have changed their opinion of it? I like what I've heard and seen of Lampe and his game promises to be a good fit for the team, so I actually like the trade somewhat better. We haven't learned any more about Vujanic - certainly nothing disturbing and that's good. Eisley is Eisley and somewhat overpaid, nothing new there. We probably have an edge getting McDyess back as a FA if we want him as we're not demanding he push himself to play. He may turn into a useful player at a reasonable cost yet. What we do with the Knicks' picks and the cap room remain to be seen but our management usually does fairly well with those opportunities - and what we paid for was the opportunities.
Heck, if the C's were half as good at picking coaches as they are making deals I'd be tickled pink all around.
Heck, if the C's were half as good at picking coaches as they are making deals I'd be tickled pink all around.
Since it's obvious that you do not approve of the trade, I would like to know your thoughts on how you would of made this team a winner the following season with Marbury & Penny still on the team.
I love this trade as it stands, even though the Suns have yet to reap the benefits. One thing that happened through the trade is JJ breaking out.
I sure hope NY has enough of a team to win it all, because they gave up their future to the Suns.
Nice summary! There isn't a sub .500 team in the league that wouldn't have taken a chance on the trade. I'm viewing this year as more of a developmental year with the suns making the playoffs next year!
I think the suns are poised to have a nice 5-10 year playoff run with the young players they have while other teams like the lakers sure are aging quick!
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Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
didn't like the trade when it happened, like it less now, if that is even possible.
Like schutd said, the apathy I have now for the Suns is worse than it's been. I've been a fan since the Dennis Johnson years (80-ish?).
It's not coincidence. Pretty much any post on the day of a game has a good chance of being in the neighborhood of a horrible game, no?
Aside from saving money for the C's, nothing good came from this trade. Everything is speculation. And the 2, 3, 4 or 5 years it takes for the Suns to 'develop' are wasted years, IMO. I would take years of 45 win seasons over 25 win seasons and potential anyday.
When is the last time an NBA cleared cap space, traded it's star, and started from scratch and ended up being a 60 win team? And how long did it take for them to get there? And where is the next Tim Duncan going to come from?
Brad
didn't like the trade when it happened, like it less now, if that is even possible.
Like schutd said, the apathy I have now for the Suns is worse than it's been. I've been a fan since the Dennis Johnson years (80-ish?).
It's not coincidence. Pretty much any post on the day of a game has a good chance of being in the neighborhood of a horrible game, no?
Aside from saving money for the C's, nothing good came from this trade. Everything is speculation. And the 2, 3, 4 or 5 years it takes for the Suns to 'develop' are wasted years, IMO. I would take years of 45 win seasons over 25 win seasons and potential anyday.
When is the last time an NBA cleared cap space, traded it's star, and started from scratch and ended up being a 60 win team? And how long did it take for them to get there? And where is the next Tim Duncan going to come from?
Brad
Chaz
observationist
Re: Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
The first one is a little unfair of a question. This is uncharted territory as far as the CBA, High school and foreign players, salary cap, and luxary tax are concerned.
I think it came down to Amare or Stephon. They never played well together and who would you rather build a team around?
I will take the inside player over the outside, penetrating player everytime.
The biggest benefit is getting rid of Penny. It seems like it is all people could talk about was how could they trade him. Well they did and it cost them Marbury.
The problem the Suns have now is they don't play much defense and Steph and Penny were no solution for that.
I don't see that they are much worse on the court and they are MUCH better position to improve now than they were 3 months ago.
I don't really care if they make a big slash this off season. With a commitment to defense and more experience and health for the existing players I am excited about what this team can do.
The first one is a little unfair of a question. This is uncharted territory as far as the CBA, High school and foreign players, salary cap, and luxary tax are concerned.
I think it came down to Amare or Stephon. They never played well together and who would you rather build a team around?
I will take the inside player over the outside, penetrating player everytime.
The biggest benefit is getting rid of Penny. It seems like it is all people could talk about was how could they trade him. Well they did and it cost them Marbury.
The problem the Suns have now is they don't play much defense and Steph and Penny were no solution for that.
I don't see that they are much worse on the court and they are MUCH better position to improve now than they were 3 months ago.
I don't really care if they make a big slash this off season. With a commitment to defense and more experience and health for the existing players I am excited about what this team can do.
Travis Bickle
Newbie
When is the last time an NBA cleared cap space, traded it's star, and started from scratch and ended up being a 60 win team? And how long did it take for them to get there? And where is the next Tim Duncan going to come from?
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Let's see--the Suns in the late 80's (traded Larry Nance, got KJ, drafted Majerle, signed Chambers); the Lakers in the mid-90's (only remember they sucked for a few years, Magic and Rambis coached for a time, but they got far enough under cap to sign Shaq); Pacers of a few years ago (traded Dale Davis, traded Jalen Rose for Artest and Miller). I'm sure I'm missing some.
Personally, I'd like to see us make a run at role players like Etan Thomas (RFA), Bob Sura, Wes Person, Adonal Foyle, Dale Davis a year from now, etc... Our problem is not players w/ star potential--we've got 2 1/2 that we know of. We need veteran role players who complement JJ, Amare and Shawn--perimeter and interior defenders, shot blockers, and spot-up shooters.
Did anybody catch Luol Deng last night? He'd make a great backup 2/3 right away, would look good at 2 w/ JJ playing the point.
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Let's see--the Suns in the late 80's (traded Larry Nance, got KJ, drafted Majerle, signed Chambers); the Lakers in the mid-90's (only remember they sucked for a few years, Magic and Rambis coached for a time, but they got far enough under cap to sign Shaq); Pacers of a few years ago (traded Dale Davis, traded Jalen Rose for Artest and Miller). I'm sure I'm missing some.
Personally, I'd like to see us make a run at role players like Etan Thomas (RFA), Bob Sura, Wes Person, Adonal Foyle, Dale Davis a year from now, etc... Our problem is not players w/ star potential--we've got 2 1/2 that we know of. We need veteran role players who complement JJ, Amare and Shawn--perimeter and interior defenders, shot blockers, and spot-up shooters.
Did anybody catch Luol Deng last night? He'd make a great backup 2/3 right away, would look good at 2 w/ JJ playing the point.
For most this is probably going to be one of those "well no kidding" posts. The Suns offense does go try at times. It happens mostly when the Suns are struggling with their outside and midrange shooting. I'm hoping that a couple things happen this summer which will help in that department.
First I'm hoping that Cabarkapa fully recovers and Lampe is integrated into the offense. Secondly I hope they continue to work with Amare Stoudemire on his midrange jump shot. The same goes for Little Jake. If they can hit those shots consistently or even semi-consistently the Suns offense will be much, much more potent. Lastly I hope that Vujanic is signed and is nearly as good and shooting and scoring as he is reported to be.
Let's face it though. The Suns are really not losing games because of their offense. They have lost most of these games because they can't stop the other team's offense. They are currently 26th in the NBA in opponents' ppg and 19th in opponents' field-goal%. More than anything this team needs a shot blocking, strong on the boards, low pose defensive presence. Of course getting a player like that is easier said than done. The other thing the Suns need on defense is just health. Because they've had to go small so often lately out of necessity and have become reliant on this scrambling, double teaming defense. With a decent shot blocking, rebounding center and some health they could go man-to-man much of the time and throwing some of the double teams when needed.
No one knows for sure what the Phoenix Suns will do as the trade deadline approaches and in the summer. One of the nice things about the trade is that it has left the future wide-open. However I will be extremely frustrated if they don't at least make you tend to get some help in the middle on defense and on the boards.
I know we've been over this before, but who has seen Kosta Perovic play?
We'll see what happens.
Joe Mama
First I'm hoping that Cabarkapa fully recovers and Lampe is integrated into the offense. Secondly I hope they continue to work with Amare Stoudemire on his midrange jump shot. The same goes for Little Jake. If they can hit those shots consistently or even semi-consistently the Suns offense will be much, much more potent. Lastly I hope that Vujanic is signed and is nearly as good and shooting and scoring as he is reported to be.
Let's face it though. The Suns are really not losing games because of their offense. They have lost most of these games because they can't stop the other team's offense. They are currently 26th in the NBA in opponents' ppg and 19th in opponents' field-goal%. More than anything this team needs a shot blocking, strong on the boards, low pose defensive presence. Of course getting a player like that is easier said than done. The other thing the Suns need on defense is just health. Because they've had to go small so often lately out of necessity and have become reliant on this scrambling, double teaming defense. With a decent shot blocking, rebounding center and some health they could go man-to-man much of the time and throwing some of the double teams when needed.
No one knows for sure what the Phoenix Suns will do as the trade deadline approaches and in the summer. One of the nice things about the trade is that it has left the future wide-open. However I will be extremely frustrated if they don't at least make you tend to get some help in the middle on defense and on the boards.
I know we've been over this before, but who has seen Kosta Perovic play?
We'll see what happens.
Joe Mama
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Chaplin
Better off silent
Re: Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
Brad, what about Joe Johnson? Why are the anti-trade people conveniently ignoring him?
I'm not sure we would have ever seen the new Joe Johnson had we kept Marbury and Penny--personally, I prefer the new JJ to Penny, definitely, and I liked Marbury only marginally better.
We were hamstrung before the trade. Plain and simple. We didn't have the financial flexibility to compete for a championship because we had so many bloated contracts.
I refuse to believe that after this season, the C's will sit on their hands--this is going to be a very interesting offseason, but it's way to premature to start lamenting the trade as a disaster. If it's so bad, there's a nice young team up the road in Colorado that would love to have a few more fans. Enjoy.
Brad, what about Joe Johnson? Why are the anti-trade people conveniently ignoring him?
I'm not sure we would have ever seen the new Joe Johnson had we kept Marbury and Penny--personally, I prefer the new JJ to Penny, definitely, and I liked Marbury only marginally better.
We were hamstrung before the trade. Plain and simple. We didn't have the financial flexibility to compete for a championship because we had so many bloated contracts.
I refuse to believe that after this season, the C's will sit on their hands--this is going to be a very interesting offseason, but it's way to premature to start lamenting the trade as a disaster. If it's so bad, there's a nice young team up the road in Colorado that would love to have a few more fans. Enjoy.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
Agreed with JJ. I'm a big JJ guy. He has been the one bright spot to me. But, it's tempered with the Kobe talk. Bring in Kobe and JJ's development is over. For me, the only bright spot is I like watching JJ's game. He seems like a good guy, plays hard, etc...Apparently, that means it's only a matter of time before he's traded JJ has been great. No doubt.
Thanks for your approval on my changing teams. That's just what I was waiting for before moving on.
Brad
I like the Suns. Unfortunately, for this season, anyway. I'll stick with them. I just don't have to like it, do I?
Agreed with JJ. I'm a big JJ guy. He has been the one bright spot to me. But, it's tempered with the Kobe talk. Bring in Kobe and JJ's development is over. For me, the only bright spot is I like watching JJ's game. He seems like a good guy, plays hard, etc...Apparently, that means it's only a matter of time before he's traded
JJ has been great. No doubt.Thanks for your approval on my changing teams. That's just what I was waiting for before moving on.
Brad
I like the Suns. Unfortunately, for this season, anyway. I'll stick with them. I just don't have to like it, do I?
scotsman13
Registered User
claps his hand for chaplin,
i wonder how many teams in the nba would love to trade rosters with the suns right now? i know portland would, i beleive golden state, toronto, altanta, orlando, utah, the clippers, the bucks, heck almost all of the east. heck i think that even houston and denver both would love to have our roster over theirs.
i wonder how many teams in the nba would love to trade rosters with the suns right now? i know portland would, i beleive golden state, toronto, altanta, orlando, utah, the clippers, the bucks, heck almost all of the east. heck i think that even houston and denver both would love to have our roster over theirs.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
Forgot the smiley on that. Sorry.
As for the Kobe thing--I don't know. It's one thing to be consistent for a week or even two weeks, but if JJ is consistent for 2 months, then perhaps, even with Kobe, JJ will remain the same player.
Originally posted by NDSunsfan
Agreed with JJ. I'm a big JJ guy. He has been the one bright spot to me. But, it's tempered with the Kobe talk. Bring in Kobe and JJ's development is over. For me, the only bright spot is I like watching JJ's game. He seems like a good guy, plays hard, etc...Apparently, that means it's only a matter of time before he's traded
Thanks for your approval on my changing teams. That's just what I was waiting for before moving on.
Brad
I like the Suns. Unfortunately, for this season, anyway. I'll stick with them. I just don't have to like it, do I?
Forgot the smiley on that. Sorry.
As for the Kobe thing--I don't know. It's one thing to be consistent for a week or even two weeks, but if JJ is consistent for 2 months, then perhaps, even with Kobe, JJ will remain the same player.
OP
OP
elindholm
edited for content
George O'Brien:
There was only one team in the lottery that was serious about Jake. Cleveland was expected to take him but took Mihm instead. Other than that, I'm not sure he was that highly rated.
Then why did Tsakalidis's Greek team send a fax to every team in the league, warning them not to draft him? (And rumor had it that this fax campaign was orchestrated by Skiles.)
Chaplin:
Brad, what about Joe Johnson? Why are the anti-trade people conveniently ignoring him?
Am I the only one who has noticed that Johnson's recent swoon (three sub-20 games in a row, after getting 20 or more in 13 of his previous 14) exactly coincided with the increased media attention he started getting? Isn't that a little suspicious? It sure looks to me like, once again, he crumbles under the burden of expectations.
scotsman13:
i wonder how many teams in the nba would love to trade rosters with the suns right now? i know portland would, i beleive golden state, toronto, altanta, orlando, utah, the clippers, the bucks, heck almost all of the east. heck i think that even houston and denver both would love to have our roster over theirs.
Maybe you should poll the fans of those other teams and see how they feel about that theory.
Dr. Dumas:
Since it's obvious that you do not approve of the trade, I would like to know your thoughts on how you would of made this team a winner the following season with Marbury & Penny still on the team.
Hardaway was nothing more than a financial problem. I would find an owner willing to spend to put a winner on the floor. Great roster improvements can be made for the MLE, especially in a summer rich in free agents.
SirChaz:
I think it came down to Amare or Stephon. They never played well together and who would you rather build a team around?
Where has this myth come from that Marbury and Stoudemire couldn't play well together? Pot-stirring stories by tabloid reporters with too much time on their hands? They played together just fine last season, and this season Stoudemire has been injured. His points are up since the trade, but that will always happen when a team trades its top scorer.
Joe Mama:
To me it means that the Suns were only very slightly better with Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway than they are today.
Why are you conveniently ignoring all of last season? Doesn't that count as part of the Marbury legacy too?
Everyone:
There are some mighty short memories here. When the team was struggling, we were all hopeful that the returns of Stoudemire and Cabarkapa would make a difference. Even those who thought this season was lost were hopeful that those players, plus some minor off-season acquisitions -– remember, the luxury tax is rumored to be on the way out, putting the MLE in play even if the Suns had kept Marbury and Hardaway -– would get the Suns back to at least playoff level, if not higher.
Were those hopes realistic? It’s hard to know. But they have been replaced by hopes that, in my opinion, are far less realistic. Can I say that Lampe and Vujanic won’t be great players? No, not with certainty. But if your friend was fixing you up with a blind date, assuring you that the woman in question was spectacular, would you fall in love with her sight-unseen? I doubt it -– and yet nearly everyone on this board has fallen in love with Lampe and Vujanic in exactly the same way.
There was only one team in the lottery that was serious about Jake. Cleveland was expected to take him but took Mihm instead. Other than that, I'm not sure he was that highly rated.
Then why did Tsakalidis's Greek team send a fax to every team in the league, warning them not to draft him? (And rumor had it that this fax campaign was orchestrated by Skiles.)
Chaplin:
Brad, what about Joe Johnson? Why are the anti-trade people conveniently ignoring him?
Am I the only one who has noticed that Johnson's recent swoon (three sub-20 games in a row, after getting 20 or more in 13 of his previous 14) exactly coincided with the increased media attention he started getting? Isn't that a little suspicious? It sure looks to me like, once again, he crumbles under the burden of expectations.
scotsman13:
i wonder how many teams in the nba would love to trade rosters with the suns right now? i know portland would, i beleive golden state, toronto, altanta, orlando, utah, the clippers, the bucks, heck almost all of the east. heck i think that even houston and denver both would love to have our roster over theirs.
Maybe you should poll the fans of those other teams and see how they feel about that theory.
Dr. Dumas:
Since it's obvious that you do not approve of the trade, I would like to know your thoughts on how you would of made this team a winner the following season with Marbury & Penny still on the team.
Hardaway was nothing more than a financial problem. I would find an owner willing to spend to put a winner on the floor. Great roster improvements can be made for the MLE, especially in a summer rich in free agents.
SirChaz:
I think it came down to Amare or Stephon. They never played well together and who would you rather build a team around?
Where has this myth come from that Marbury and Stoudemire couldn't play well together? Pot-stirring stories by tabloid reporters with too much time on their hands? They played together just fine last season, and this season Stoudemire has been injured. His points are up since the trade, but that will always happen when a team trades its top scorer.
Joe Mama:
To me it means that the Suns were only very slightly better with Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway than they are today.
Why are you conveniently ignoring all of last season? Doesn't that count as part of the Marbury legacy too?
Everyone:
There are some mighty short memories here. When the team was struggling, we were all hopeful that the returns of Stoudemire and Cabarkapa would make a difference. Even those who thought this season was lost were hopeful that those players, plus some minor off-season acquisitions -– remember, the luxury tax is rumored to be on the way out, putting the MLE in play even if the Suns had kept Marbury and Hardaway -– would get the Suns back to at least playoff level, if not higher.
Were those hopes realistic? It’s hard to know. But they have been replaced by hopes that, in my opinion, are far less realistic. Can I say that Lampe and Vujanic won’t be great players? No, not with certainty. But if your friend was fixing you up with a blind date, assuring you that the woman in question was spectacular, would you fall in love with her sight-unseen? I doubt it -– and yet nearly everyone on this board has fallen in love with Lampe and Vujanic in exactly the same way.
Chaz
observationist
Wow you were busy with that reply.
It is my own observation about what I saw on the court between them. I don't think they played well together last year. They never were able to connect in a two man game. Steph rarely passed to Amare and Amare rarely passed to Steph. The Suns offense with Steph was 4 guys standing and watching. The result of his departure is more passing and cutting without a big drop in offensive production. I see much better chemistry between JJ and Amare.
Does anyone have the numbers on PPG before and after the trade? Points allowed was the problem before and after the trade.
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schutd
ASFN Addict
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still like the Marbury trade?
I agree wiht Brad. Get Kobe, and JJ is a goner, and hes one of the only reasons I remain interested in this ballclub.
But let me also point out. IM not a detractor of the trade. Marbury wasnt doing it for in a Suns uni, as much as I think of him as a player. I have some excitement for the future, becasue like Joe said, its WIDE OPEN. Given the choice of watching the Suns with Penny and Marbury miss the playoffs with no hope of future maneuverability, or watching them tank this season without those two but have all the flexibility in the world, Id certainly take the latter.
But something has to change. We dont really have any of the primadonnas that I spoke of earlier, but I think Amare could become one. Theres something about his interviews that says he's more worried about himself than he is the team he plays for. That scares me. But I love the guy, and hope he succeeds like crazy here.
Eh, I guess Ill keep checking in and relying on you guys for my SUns fix, but like Brad, for this season anyway, I'm not happy about it!
Originally posted by NDSunsfan
Agreed with JJ. I'm a big JJ guy. He has been the one bright spot to me. But, it's tempered with the Kobe talk. Bring in Kobe and JJ's development is over. For me, the only bright spot is I like watching JJ's game. He seems like a good guy, plays hard, etc...Apparently, that means it's only a matter of time before he's traded
Thanks for your approval on my changing teams. That's just what I was waiting for before moving on.
Brad
I like the Suns. Unfortunately, for this season, anyway. I'll stick with them. I just don't have to like it, do I?
I agree wiht Brad. Get Kobe, and JJ is a goner, and hes one of the only reasons I remain interested in this ballclub.
But let me also point out. IM not a detractor of the trade. Marbury wasnt doing it for in a Suns uni, as much as I think of him as a player. I have some excitement for the future, becasue like Joe said, its WIDE OPEN. Given the choice of watching the Suns with Penny and Marbury miss the playoffs with no hope of future maneuverability, or watching them tank this season without those two but have all the flexibility in the world, Id certainly take the latter.
But something has to change. We dont really have any of the primadonnas that I spoke of earlier, but I think Amare could become one. Theres something about his interviews that says he's more worried about himself than he is the team he plays for. That scares me. But I love the guy, and hope he succeeds like crazy here.
Eh, I guess Ill keep checking in and relying on you guys for my SUns fix, but like Brad, for this season anyway, I'm not happy about it!
so i'm not big on the trade. that's ok, i actually was kind of coming around to it. and i can really see the financial upside of things. so i can understand it. but as a guy who just likes to turn on the tv, sit back and watch suns games, it's not near as much fun now as it used to be, and that's where my frustration comes from. they just don't have the same chance of winning games as before, and they might not for the forseeable future.
i like the nba, but i don't particularly like it enough to watch just any game. flipping around, i can catch a game for a few minutes here and there, but suns games used to be markedly different. sadly, they have become the 2 minute flip. bummer.
every 2 or 3 game win streak will fire me back up, and the off season moves at least have the chance to be exciting. so, there is enough to keep me interested, but it's just not the same.
go suns!
brad
i like the nba, but i don't particularly like it enough to watch just any game. flipping around, i can catch a game for a few minutes here and there, but suns games used to be markedly different. sadly, they have become the 2 minute flip. bummer.
every 2 or 3 game win streak will fire me back up, and the off season moves at least have the chance to be exciting. so, there is enough to keep me interested, but it's just not the same.
go suns!
brad
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Chaplin
Better off silent
Maybe we just need to clear up some imperceptions.
#1: I am certainly not devaluing Stephon Marbury, but taken as a whole--with salaries, play on the court, attitude, whatever--the trade isn't that bad. Especially with the financial issues.
#2: Joe Johnson's recent "swoon" is only a swoon because you call it that. Marion's has lasted all season. JJ's lack of hitting 20 points in the last 3 games is the least of our worries.
#3: At first, I disliked the trade because I valued Marbury very high. JJ's resurgance has tempered that a bit, but also Jake and Casey have played better as a result as well. Why is that, do you think?
#4: I find it funny that all of a sudden, Eric has this foolproof idea about getting rid of Hardaway. If it were that easy, why didn't the C's do that? And where was this idea 2 months ago? We SAVED a total of almost 120 million dollars. 120 million!! That's a lot of chump change with just 2 players.
#1: I am certainly not devaluing Stephon Marbury, but taken as a whole--with salaries, play on the court, attitude, whatever--the trade isn't that bad. Especially with the financial issues.
#2: Joe Johnson's recent "swoon" is only a swoon because you call it that. Marion's has lasted all season. JJ's lack of hitting 20 points in the last 3 games is the least of our worries.
#3: At first, I disliked the trade because I valued Marbury very high. JJ's resurgance has tempered that a bit, but also Jake and Casey have played better as a result as well. Why is that, do you think?
#4: I find it funny that all of a sudden, Eric has this foolproof idea about getting rid of Hardaway. If it were that easy, why didn't the C's do that? And where was this idea 2 months ago? We SAVED a total of almost 120 million dollars. 120 million!! That's a lot of chump change with just 2 players.
George O'Brien
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Last year the Nuggets won a total of 17 games. This year they are a solid playoff contender. All that happened was a good draft pick, a couple of lower end free agents, and a couple of guys getting healthy.
Compare the Nuggets of last year to the current Suns and there is no comparison - the Suns have a lot more talent. Give the Suns some health and more experience and they should be a decent team even without any major changes.
George O'Brien
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Hope springs eternal. But there were plenty of reasons to be concerned.
First - Last season, the Suns got into the playoffs because Houston had a late season meltdown. The Suns struggled for an extended period. They got hot near the end of the season, but it is reasonable to assume that this was not really sustainable without more talent.
Second - The western conference is getting stronger. Not only is Memphis now a competative team, Houston is better than a year ago. Denver and Minnesotat much better. It won't get any better next year when New Orleans joins the west. The Jazz and the Warriors were competative before injuries. There was a major concern that everyone else was getting better by adding players. Yet the Suns were standing pat.
Third - There is no guarentee that the luxury tax will go away. As long as the luxury tax is in place, it was very unlikely the Suns would use their mid cap when then had a $65 million payroll. Even without the luxury tax, it was doubtful the Suns could afford to be at the level indefinitely let alone add more FA's.
Fourth - Cabakapa was mostly hope rather than proven skill. None of the Euro big guys are immediately ready for the NBA . A lot more hope was placed on Zarko than was realistic. I believe he will be a very good player, but the idea he was going to turn the season around was mostly wishful thinking.
Fifth - The Suns are still struggling with the aftermath of the injuries. Amare is only just regaining his timing on offense and is still struggling on defense. Zarko is no where close to being "back" from his wrist injury. Dice might still prove to be somewhat useful if he gets healthy enough to play.
There were numerous concerns expressed that the Suns were in trouble even during training camp. It is an error to assume that everyone thought things would be "all right" once Amare and Zarko got healthy.
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