Still Mystified By 2004-05

[Irish]

I was looking at the Suns roster for 2004-05 and I still can't believe they were within a healthy JJ from getting to the finals. Look at who they did it with:

Stoudemire
Marion
Richardson
Johnson
Nash

Jackson (replaced Jacobsen)
Barbosa
Hunter

Hunter was their only backup inside guy (who played) and he averaged only 13 minutes a game.

Clearly their three point shooting really shocked the rest of the NBA. They took 2080 attempts and hit 796.

Nash 94 of 218 - 43.1%
Johnson 177 of 370 - 47.8%
Richardson 226 of 681 - 35.8%
Marion 114 of 341 - 33.4%
Barbosa 51 of 139 - 36.7%
Jackson 68 of 148 - 45.9%
Jacobsen 34 of 89 - 68.2%

With such a tiny frong line, they actually rebounded "OK", One of the keyes to that team was the reboudning by outside guys:

Richardson 6.1 rpg
Johnson 5.1 rgp
Jackson 3.9 rpg

Overall, that team did not have the talent that this year's team has, but losing JJ hurt a lot. James Jones never really replaced Richardson's reboudning even though he was a better shooter. Bell was not supposed to replace JJ, so it is not surprising he couldn't either as a rebounder and backup PG.

JJ was never a point guard, but as a combo he was a lot more effective than Barbos and was a much better mid range shooter.

Overall, I'm not sure that squad would do well now. The Suns offense was brand new then and a lot of teams were sucked into running with them. But it is still hard to believe they did what they did with only Hunter as their main backup big.

 

[Rab]

I think that team snuck up on a lot of people. The Suns ran a style that had rarely been seen in the league for a number of years. The Kings were a great offensive team and scored a lot of points, but they weren't the same type of team. They were an incredibly efficient half court team the ran when the chance came along. Those Nash led Mavs teams were probably the closest in comparison to the 04-05 Suns.

I'm still not convinced that a healthy JJ would've put in them in Finals. I honestly think the Spurs were just the better team. I do think that the combination of keeping JJ, and making the Kurt for Q trade would've put them over the top if Amare had not hurt his knee and been out the whole next year.

I'm still amazed they got passed the Mavs in the Semi's without JJ out for much of the series. They had to take their best bench player in Jimmy Jax, and start him, bringing in LB, who wasn't near the player he is now, and Steven Hunter in spots. Heck, I even remember a Walter McCarty sighting in a couple of those games.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Suns would have lost anyway (with JJ).

The Suns had the more talented team in all three meetings against the Spurs.

Its just that Popovic flat out OWNED D'Antoni.

 

[mojorizen7]

First of all D'Antoni's gimmick offense was brilliant.....for a little while.
Also i think the fact that several key guys on that team hadn't been "kicked in the gut" yet so to speak. There were no mental hurdles like ridiculous suspensions,continuous ownage by the SPURS,fan expectations,Amare season-long knee injuries,untimely injuries,bad officiating etc...
That group had the benefit of truly believing "why not us?"
I think that shadow of doubt has crept into the minds of some on this team(which is why as GM i'd have blown up this team after hiring a new coach.) Hopefullly a new coaching staff will help disspell those doubts but i'm not optomistic.

 

[sunsallday]

The 2005 team was awesome. Its run and gun offense haven't been used in the NBA since the Showtime Lakers. The team shocked the world and made Nash, Marion, JJ, and Amare even bigger superstars. Heck we soon became one of the most popular teams in the world. Every thing was so fresh and new. However, each year the offense became less fresh and explosive, more and more of our three point assassin's left, and injuries plagued the team(Nash's back problems, Bell's knee, Amare's year long surgery and recovery, etc.). Like mojorizen said, Dantoni's gimmicks were not working anymore. Teams began to copy us, teams, more and more teams knew how to stop our offense, we became too dependent on Nash and sucked in the half court offense and when Nash sat on the bench, and we had the worst record of elite teams against the West.

Heck it was like a pattern, a 50-60 win season and usual butt rape by the Spurs or some critical injury to one of our important player. Our defense was not going to win us a championship anyway as we would have been humiliated in the Finals if we faced the defensive minded Pistons in 2005. 2006 and 2007 if we advanced to the Finals would have been easy championships. We owned the Heat and Cavs during the regular season, and I knew we could win against a one man team like the Cavs.

The problem was though we dominated against the East and could have one multiple championships, we were weak against strong West teams and that always kept us from advancing to the next level.

 

[Sunsman43]

Yeah that 2004 club was something special. Although they had almost zero bench. Steven Hunter played very little and Barbosa didn't play more than a few garbage minutes. You essentially have Jim Jackson and that's it. Very thin club, but still effective. That's cause everyone was young.

My favorite year was 2005 - the non-Amare season in which Diaw, Kurt, Tim Thomas, and Eddie House were playing like GODS of Basketball.

The 2006 club was so-so. The 2007-2008 club this past season was horrible. Looking forward to this new 2008-2009 change.

 

[LV-Suns]

Even though 04 season was the most entertaining, 06 one had the biggest chance to the tile. 05 season was special because the whole team actually played their hearts out.

Last year was just pathetic.

 

[Irish]

I got started on this because Eric was dumping on Robin. I can't see any reason why Robin won't be 10 times the player that Hunter was. It just struck me how undermanned that team was.

 

[dodie53]

08-09 season will be a season to remember!

 

[msdundee]

08-09 season will be a season to remember!

That's a fairly safe prediction--either way.

 

[Bufalay]

This will be the year that Amare demands a trade!

 

[nowagimp]

I got started on this because Eric was dumping on Robin. I can't see any reason why Robin won't be 10 times the player that Hunter was. It just struck me how undermanned that team was.

that team had a thin bench, but it had some big guards that could rebound, and 4 all star caliber players(nash, marion, JJ, amare). I cant think of another team that has had 4 all star caliber talents in the recent years. JJ made the suns a nasty team at the 2,3, he was a complete talent on both sides of the ball. Jimmy Jackson was an outstanding 3 pt shooter, the suns sure could use a 46% 3pt shooter now. Looking at the stats, 3 guys shot over 43% from 3! JJ shot 47% from '3' and nobody wanted to go out on him, it was no suprise as he could abuse almost any defender off the dribble. Even if they did go out on him he could create space for the shot out there. No wonder why amare was wide open in the middle, that was the best shooting suns team this decade. That team was a true small ball team lots of skill guys, it was the best small ball team of the DA era, but it did have a thin bench. I disagree about the talent, that team had more skills that last years team. Last years team was the worst shooting suns team in years from outside.

amare('05)> amare '08
JJ> Hill
marion>diaw
Nash '05>nash '08
hunter<shaq
Q< raja
barbs('05)< barbs '08
JJack>GG

talent wise, I'd give it to the '05 team

 

[sunsallday]

amare('05)> amare '08

I strongly disagree. Before Amare returned for the 06-07 season, many questioned how explosive he would be and marked him as another Chris Webber. Many said that he would average under 20 points. He comes back from three knee surgeries, and was just as explosive as before. The 2007-2008 season is where I saw his offensive potential when he moved to PF. He was basically unstoppable. Nobody could guard him(yes, not even KG or Timmy), and he was just as explosive as he was in 05. Disagree all you want, but the Suns are lucky Amare is playing at this high level after three knee surgeries.

However, his defense still sucks and he needs to rebound more. I assure you that Amare will be a better and more complete player than he ever was this season. He wants to be the best PF in the world, but he needs to complete his game on the defensive end and on rebounding before he becomes that. He already has the offensive side down. But his potential won't be reached if he doesn't average 30 and 10. This season is critical for him and the future of this franchise(if Amare leaves, the Suns are screwed and will be a lottery team for many years to come).

 

[Chaplin]

amare('05)> amare '08

You're kidding right? Amare '08 is a lot better than the '05 version. He's about as good a defender, but he's a MUCH better shooter from mid-range and a better shot-blocker now as well.

 

[nowagimp]

You're kidding right? Amare '08 is a lot better than the '05 version. He's about as good a defender, but he's a MUCH better shooter from mid-range and a better shot-blocker now as well.

IMO, Amare is not physically back to where he was. He's not as fast off the dribble, he doesnt blow by guys like he used to. His strength in the knees appears limiting at times, and when youre fighting for position under the boards, weak knees are a major liability. Amare is smarter on defense now, but he doesnt move laterally as well since the microfracture. Its great to have amare back at perhaps 90% physically, but the '05 amare was the fastest PF in the NBA off the dribble, not so today. Amare in that '05 offense(w alot of shooters), was a more effective amare, more speed more room to operate. Last years amare struggled against the spurs in the lane in the second half of games, not so in '05. The amare of '05 shot 54% FG's, grabbed 10.7 rebounds, and scored 29.9ppg in the playoffs. Last years amare was 23.2ppg, 48% Fgs and 9 rebounds. If amare had better talent around him, it sure didnt help him shoot the ball better. And here is the killer, in '08, the suns were outrebounded by 2 rebs/game in the playoffs, but in 05 they only outrebounded the suns by 0.5 rebounds per game in the playoffs. the '05 suns with JJ had a nice shot, and if they had kept that team together and added a bench player o two, I expect the suns would have won their championship, perhaps more than one.

 

[Chaplin]

IMO, Amare is not physically back to where he was. He's not as fast off the dribble, he doesnt blow by guys like he used to. His strength in the knees appears limiting at times, and when youre fighting for position under the boards, weak knees are a major liability. Amare is smarter on defense now, but he doesnt move laterally as well since the microfracture. Its great to have amare back at perhaps 90% physically, but the '05 amare was the fastest PF in the NBA off the dribble, not so today. Amare in that '05 offense(w alot of shooters), was a more effective amare, more speed more room to operate. Last years amare struggled against the spurs in the lane in the second half of games, not so in '05. The amare of '05 shot 54% FG's, grabbed 10.7 rebounds, and scored 29.9ppg in the playoffs. Last years amare was 23.2ppg, 48% Fgs and 9 rebounds. If amare had better talent around him, it sure didnt help him shoot the ball better. And here is the killer, in '08, the suns were outrebounded by 2 rebs/game in the playoffs, but in 05 they only outrebounded the suns by 0.5 rebounds per game in the playoffs. the '05 suns with JJ had a nice shot, and if they had kept that team together and added a bench player o two, I expect the suns would have won their championship, perhaps more than one.

So does that mean you don't notice that his 15-foot jumper is almost automatic now? He didn't shoot at all from that far out 3 years ago.

 

[mojorizen7]

I disagree about the talent, that team had more skills that last years team. Last years team was the worst shooting suns team in years from outside.

amare('05)> amare '08
JJ> Hill
marion>diaw
Nash '05>nash '08
hunter<shaq
Q< raja
barbs('05)< barbs '08
JJack>GG

talent wise, I'd give it to the '05 team

Definately..... '05 team would've smoked last years squad.

 

[sunsallday]

IMO, Amare is not physically back to where he was. He's not as fast off the dribble, he doesnt blow by guys like he used to. His strength in the knees appears limiting at times, and when youre fighting for position under the boards, weak knees are a major liability. Amare is smarter on defense now, but he doesnt move laterally as well since the microfracture. Its great to have amare back at perhaps 90% physically, but the '05 amare was the fastest PF in the NBA off the dribble, not so today. Amare in that '05 offense(w alot of shooters), was a more effective amare, more speed more room to operate. Last years amare struggled against the spurs in the lane in the second half of games, not so in '05. The amare of '05 shot 54% FG's, grabbed 10.7 rebounds, and scored 29.9ppg in the playoffs. Last years amare was 23.2ppg, 48% Fgs and 9 rebounds. If amare had better talent around him, it sure didnt help him shoot the ball better. And here is the killer, in '08, the suns were outrebounded by 2 rebs/game in the playoffs, but in 05 they only outrebounded the suns by 0.5 rebounds per game in the playoffs. the '05 suns with JJ had a nice shot, and if they had kept that team together and added a bench player o two, I expect the suns would have won their championship, perhaps more than one.

Thats because last years Amare was still recovering. He came back in form this year and averaged 25.12 points per game and nearly 30 points per game when he moved to PF(his rebounding also increased although it dropped off in April). Also remember that the Amare of 05 averaged less rebounds, had a worser free throw percentage, a lower field goal percentage, and less blocks. Amare still blows by people as he has more And 1s than anybody in the league. He was on the verge of averaging 35+ points against the Spurs until the Suns went cold and he couldn't hit a shot and he kept on getting in foul trouble(which obviously lowers his points). A still recovering Amare also had a higher fg%.

Amare is perhaps the greatest success story of microfracture surgery because most big men who have had it barely averaged 20 points anymore or scoring went down drastically. He still dunks on people, still has speed, and even improved his shot and became more versatile. Disagree all you want, but IMO, Amare is just as explosive as he was in 05. If he was lesser than he was in 05, how did he averaged nearly 29 or 30 points per game when he moved to PF? Amare will be huge this season. He will be just as explosive and will probably be 100%. Call me crazy and continue to disagree, but Amare is more offensively developed than he was in 05 IMO.

 

[nowagimp]

So does that mean you don't notice that his 15-foot jumper is almost automatic now? He didn't shoot at all from that far out 3 years ago.

Sure he has a better 15-17' jumper, but in almost every other area he is off a little, and he's off alot going to the basket and finishing. The '05 amare stoudemire going to the basket was likely the fastest PF(w, best handles) in the history of the NBA, its a pity it didnt last. Amare was so fast he could finish on a double team that was playing off of him, conceding that jumper, and he'd take it right to them anyway. He cant do that anymore, and part of the reason is the injury, and the other part is the lack of shooters to get the spacing on the floor. The suns roster has just been depleted of outside shooters, and since DA strategy involved spacing of the shooters, I seriously doubt it was him that decided to dump shooters in the offseason. That '05 team was way more athletic and had better skills, its a pity they couldnt keep it together.

Funny thing is JJ had a big part in disassembling that team, and its looks like the stacked hawks team he is now on will be disassembled in the same way, before it reaches its potential. What goes around comes around, JJ.

 

[nowagimp]

Thats because last years Amare was still recovering. He came back in form this year and averaged 25.12 points per game and nearly 30 points per game when he moved to PF(his rebounding also increased although it dropped off in April). Also remember that the Amare of 05 averaged less rebounds, had a worser free throw percentage, a lower field goal percentage, and less blocks. Amare still blows by people as he has more And 1s than anybody in the league. He was on the verge of averaging 35+ points against the Spurs until the Suns went cold and he couldn't hit a shot and he kept on getting in foul trouble(which obviously lowers his points). A still recovering Amare also had a higher fg%.

Amare is perhaps the greatest success story of microfracture surgery because most big men who have had it barely averaged 20 points anymore or scoring went down drastically. He still dunks on people, still has speed, and even improved his shot and became more versatile. Disagree all you want, but IMO, Amare is just as explosive as he was in 05. If he was lesser than he was in 05, how did he averaged nearly 29 or 30 points per game when he moved to PF? Amare will be huge this season. He will be just as explosive and will probably be 100%. Call me crazy and continue to disagree, but Amare is more offensively developed than he was in 05 IMO.

I am quoting playoff stats, the regular season is almost garbage time, its only semi defended. When the playoffs start, the defense intensifies and there are no garbage opponents to fatten stats up on. Oh yeah, and he doesnt dunk on everybody anymore. He used to dunk on TD and KG, not so anymore. I wonder why?

 

[Chaplin]

nowagimp, I guess we'll just agree to disagree, but there's no way anybody is going to convince me that Amare of 05 was a better player than the Amare of 08.

 

[mojorizen7]

Amare was more explosive around the rim and off the dribble before MF surgery but yeah, he's a MUCH better all-around player than he was 4 yrs ago.
Better passer
Better jump shooter
Better shot blocker
Better finisher off the dribble

 

[nowagimp]

Amare was more explosive around the rim and off the dribble before MF surgery but yeah, he's a MUCH better all-around player than he was 4 yrs ago.
Better passer
Better jump shooter
Better shot blocker
Better finisher off the dribble

And yet he is not as effective in the playoffs as he was in '05, in spite of being able to play his natural position with shaq around. Perhaps its because he doesnt use his newfound skills, instead he trys to beat his opponents with pure athleticism like before micro. There is no denying that amare has grown and become better in all but finishing and rebounding(he may have gone backwards there due to loss of athleticism, strength), but out on the floor I dont see the result. He doesnt dominate in the crunch against the best opponents in the playoffs like he used to. Maybe its just that amare needs to be a smarter player, as his days of just out quicking and out jumping other bigs appear to be over. Serious knee injuries like amares usually require an adjustment to a more finesse oriented game.

Or maybe its not amare at all, it could be that Nash cant be the MVP caliber nash, and amare cant be the terror he was in the lane area without shooters to get the spacing necessary for the P/R to be effective, and the lane to be free from floppers. If thats the case, not much will change this year as the suns have a mediocre roster of wing shooters, just not very good. when I look at the groups of

JJ(47%), JJack(46%), Q(36%), barbs(37%), jacobsen( 38%) and compare to raja(40%), hill(32%), barbs(39%), DJ(haha), tucker(haha), Diaw(32%) the wing position has taken a crap when it comes to the outside shooting threat. Small ball was dismantled effectively when the serious shooters were put out to pasture, and that was before the 2007-8 season started.

 

[Chaplin]

I think there was NO QUESTION that Nash wasn't himself in the playoffs, and that had a huge effect on everyone's games, especially Amare's.

 

[Splinters81]

And yet he is not as effective in the playoffs as he was in '05, in spite of being able to play his natural position with shaq around. Perhaps its because he doesnt use his newfound skills, instead he trys to beat his opponents with pure athleticism like before micro. There is no denying that amare has grown and become better in all but finishing and rebounding(he may have gone backwards there due to loss of athleticism, strength), but out on the floor I dont see the result. He doesnt dominate in the crunch against the best opponents in the playoffs like he used to. Maybe its just that amare needs to be a smarter player, as his days of just out quicking and out jumping other bigs appear to be over. Serious knee injuries like amares usually require an adjustment to a more finesse oriented game.

Or maybe its not amare at all, it could be that Nash cant be the MVP caliber nash, and amare cant be the terror he was in the lane area without shooters to get the spacing necessary for the P/R to be effective, and the lane to be free from floppers. If thats the case, not much will change this year as the suns have a mediocre roster of wing shooters, just not very good. when I look at the groups of

JJ(47%), JJack(46%), Q(36%), barbs(37%), jacobsen( 38%) and compare to raja(40%), hill(32%), barbs(39%), DJ(haha), tucker(haha), Diaw(32%) the wing position has taken a crap when it comes to the outside shooting threat. Small ball was dismantled effectively when the serious shooters were put out to pasture, and that was before the 2007-8 season started.

I don't understand why you are so quick to blame his knees. Amare is as explosive as ever. He plays just fine he still gets up and blocks shots. I will buy the fact that we are missing our wing shooters, that may be hindering him yeah. But did you ever consider that fact that other coaches and other teams are planning to stop him and maybe they defending him a little better now that he has played a few years.

I can't take anything away from his strength, quickness, or even health. I need to actual proof that his knees are the cause, and I just don't see that. It seems you are the only one who does.