Stoudemire agrees to five-year deal with Knicks

[SweetD]

I think Lee may sign for less than 15 a year.

 

[joshstmarie]

I wonder who will be first to challenge your statement by mentioning one of our own players.

Steve

Who, Amare or Hakim ?

 

[joshstmarie]

I would expect Lopez to play alot more than he did this year. Lee is a poor defender but there wasn't much in NY to work with. Also Mike D's system in not about D at all. Rebounding is where we needed help last year and that is something Lee can do.

Ive said the same thing multiple times, he doesnt want to hear anyone elses case for lee.. just wants to believe hes the next googs and that he isnt worth the 12,13,14,15 or whatever price he decides to make up, trying to make his point sound a little bit better.


If you put amare stoudemire next to eddy curry, jared jeffries, galanari, wilson chandler and al harrington I guarantee hes the worst defensive post player in the league.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Wow, if i didn't know better i would ask if you have seen Amare played. Maybe you mean he sucks on rebound/defense when he is not into the game. on offense? He is usually 90% there.
Barring injury to Amare, i believe the Knicks will get to the playoffs next season, without another key player they probably wont go past 1st around.

If Amare was "90% there", he'd average 27ppg. He literally has the talent to average 30ppg - easy. That's my point. He's not "there" nearly enough to be considered a max player....

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I wonder who will be first to challenge your statement by mentioning one of our own players.

Steve

Ha, they are welcome to challenge whatever they'd like, but statistically speaking, I'm correct. According to an ESPN Insider article:

"Lee's defensive liabilities eclipse much of his offensive firepower.

Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes.

 

[SweetD]

Ha, they are welcome to challenge whatever they'd like, but statistically speaking, I'm correct. According to an ESPN Insider article:

"Lee's defensive liabilities eclipse much of his offensive firepower.

Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes.

He also played in Mike's system which we was matched up on C most of the game. Just like Amare was under Mike's system. Lee and Amare are just way to small to be matched up against the size of these guys. I not saying Lee is the best power forward or even better than Amare, but I am saying is I would rather have Lee starting than Warrick or Fry next year.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Ive said the same thing multiple times, he doesnt want to hear anyone elses case for lee.. just wants to believe hes the next googs and that he isnt worth the 12,13,14,15 or whatever price he decides to make up, trying to make his point sound a little bit better.

Make whatever case you want for Lee. To tie him up for a long term contract where he makes more than 12 per is stupid. Would you pay Lee between 13-15 million per year?

If you put amare stoudemire next to eddy curry, jared jeffries, galanari, wilson chandler and al harrington I guarantee hes the worst defensive post player in the league.

Hyperbole much? Amare obviously will never make an all defensive team, but clearly he isn't the worst defensive post player in the league. I also love how you talk about the poor NY defenders, while failing to note that Amare started half the year with Channing Freaking Frye next to him.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I not saying Lee is the best power forward or even better than Amare, but I am saying is I would rather have Lee starting than Warrick or Fry next year.

Of course, but at what cost? How much would you be willing to pay Lee and prevent future flexibility? More than 12 mil per? Obviously he's a better starting option than Warrick or Frye, but that ain't saying much.

 

[SweetD]

Of course, but at what cost? How much would you be willing to pay Lee and prevent future flexibility? More than 12 mil per? Obviously he's a better starting option than Warrick or Frye, but that ain't saying much.

Lee is not going to hinder our future. If we move Barbosa the only major contracts will be Nash & Richardson. Hill will retire next year and if we keep Richardson we can sign him for less. With Barbosa's 7 Million and Nash's 11 Million under contract we would have only 29 Million total even with Warrick & Fry. The Suns have always been in the top 6-9 in salary which Sarver is commited to so that would put our cap around 60-65 million. Even if we added Lee's say 12-15 we would be sitting around 53 - 55 Million.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Lee is not going to hinder our future. If we move Barbosa the only major contracts will be Nash & Richardson. Hill will retire next year and if we keep Richardson we can sign him for less. With Barbosa's 7 Million and Nash's 11 Million under contract we would have only 29 Million total even with Warrick & Fry. The Suns have always been in the top 6-9 in salary which Sarver is commited to so that would put our cap around 60-65 million. Even if we added Lee's say 12-15 we would be sitting around 53 - 55 Million.

Committing 15 million per year for Lee is far too much, especially considering the long term ramifications with a new CBA in place. Many of the contracts signed this offseason will be viewed as crippling post the new agreement. If we can get him for 12 mil or less per year, I'd be ok with it, anything more is too much.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Who, Amare or Hakim ?

No, actually I thought someone would rush to point out that Channing Frye's defense down low was even worse. I don't really agree with this but it seemed to be the prevailing opinion on this board. And I'm expecting greatness from Hakim. I'm hoping, as is the case in so many other sports, that he'll benefit from a change to a warmer location.

Steve

 

[joshstmarie]

Make whatever case you want for Lee. To tie him up for a long term contract where he makes more than 12 per is stupid. Would you pay Lee between 13-15 million per year?

How is it stupid? The market for big men who put out LESS than what lee does is right around 13-15 a year.

Tyson Chandler - 12
Al Jefferson - 13
Andrew Bynum -13
Lamarcus Aldridge - 11
Zach Randolph - 17
Kenyon Martin - 16

So yes, I would pay Lee 13-15 a year and feel pretty damn good about it.

Hyperbole much? Amare obviously will never make an all defensive team, but clearly he isn't the worst defensive post player in the league. I also love how you talk about the poor NY defenders, while failing to note that Amare started half the year with Channing Freaking Frye next to him.

Youre talking one guy (frye) compared to an entire team totally negligent of the concept of defense. Its hardly hyperbole. I didnt say he IS the worst defensive post player in the league, I said he WOULD BE.. a slight exageration? of course.. My point is you cannot honestly sit here and talk about david lees defense with the kind of "defensive structure" he has around him players/coaching/coaching style/ect.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

How is it stupid? The market for big men who put out LESS than what lee does is right around 13-15 a year.

Tyson Chandler - 12 - obviously overpaid
Al Jefferson - 13-better than Lee
Andrew Bynum -13-more valuable than Lee
Lamarcus Aldridge - 11-as good as Lee and more affordable
Zach Randolph - 17-ridiculous contract
Kenyon Martin - 16-ridiculous contract

Good examples. Some of you fail to realize, just because other teams are willing to commit stupid money to players doesn't make it a good idea.

My point is you cannot honestly sit here and talk about david lees defense with the kind of "defensive structure" he has around him players/coaching/coaching style/ect.

You can make all the excuses in the world for him if you'd like, but it still doesn't explain why LEE, not the Knicks, not his mother in law, not his dog, was the player posted up more than anyone last year. You really think that's a coincidence? If his teammates are as horrendous as you claim defensively, than why aren't teams attacking his atrocious teammates?

 

[SactownSunsFan]

You can make all the excuses in the world for him if you'd like, but it still doesn't explain why LEE, not the Knicks, not his mother in law, not his dog, was the player posted up more than anyone last year. You really think that's a coincidence? If his teammates are as horrendous as you claim defensively, than why aren't teams attacking his atrocious teammates?

Because Lee's the only player on the team willing to give help defense?

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[ASUCHRIS]

Because Lee's the only player on the team willing to give help defense?

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LOL. That's it, Lee was getting abused in the post because he was the only player on the team willing to give help defense. Glad we got that one figured out.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

LOL. That's it, Lee was getting abused in the post because he was the only player on the team willing to give help defense. Glad we got that one figured out.

 

[Sunburn]

There were 4 teams that made the playoffs in the east with nearly .500 records. I think with Amare commanding double teams and opening things on the outside, this team could be a .500 team and make the playoffs in the East. They were only 12 wins out of the 8th spot.

If your telling me that Amare can make up for 12 wins then I think your underestimating his impact. Again, this is not the West.

You're basing this on the Knicks adding talent with Amare but not subtracting anything. You gotta remember the Knicks won't even be what they were last year. They've gutted it. Your 12 more win mark is not applicable. The 8th spot last year was the Chicago Bulls. You're telling me Amare + nothing else is good enough to beat out the Bulls? I've gotta disagree with you.

 

[joshstmarie]

Good examples. Some of you fail to realize, just because other teams are willing to commit stupid money to players doesn't make it a good idea.

Its not stupid money its MARKET VALUE. Any big man worth his salt is making that kind of money, those are just the first ones that popped out at me.

You can make all the excuses in the world for him if you'd like, but it still doesn't explain why LEE, not the Knicks, not his mother in law, not his dog, was the player posted up more than anyone last year. You really think that's a coincidence? If his teammates are as horrendous as you claim defensively, than why aren't teams attacking his atrocious teammates?

because you go at a 6'9 "center". you know...the last obstacle between ANYONE and the basket.
His atrocious teamates are sitting there leaking out to the other end of the court before the plays even over.
come on dude, Im not calling Lee the best defender youve never heard of, but you cant seriously judge this guy on the NY circus.

 

[Sunburn]

Its not stupid money its MARKET VALUE.

I highly doubt this will be market value 1 or 2 years from now.

 

[Errntknght]

Because Lee's the only player on the team willing to give help defense?

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I think Sactown has a good point here... I've been close to bringing it up in prior discussions of Lee's D vs. Amare's D. There are quite a few components to defense, especially for bigs, and its almost certainly the case that neither of them is better at all of the components.
1) primary, 1-1 defense
2) rebounding & blocking out
3) guarding the paint, defensive rotation
4) blocks/alterations, steals, help D, and anything else

'help D' and 'defensive rotation' are similar, but what I mean by help D, is helping the primary defender at the last second while 'defensive rotation' means cutting off an avenue and even 'showing' at the right time and place. Pretty much 'defensive rotation' = 'team defense' though team defense includes other coordinated activities. (Like pressuring the would be passer when a post defender is fronting his man.) Those activities I would put in category 4, though that's somewhat arbitrary.

That breakdown doesn't help decide the Lee vs Amare question because I just haven't watched Lee enough and no one commenting on his D has broken it down to components.

My guess is that what those blasting Lee's D mean is his primary 1-1 defense is weak - weaker than Amare's. I further guess that one reason Lee fares badly is that he plays C much of the time in Mike's scheme of things. Amare is bit bigger and probably stronger but he also fares worse when he is at a size disadvantage. I'd be willing to concede that Amare is probably better at 1).

Stats are useful for category 2) and no one has contended that Amare is Lee's equal there.

Where Amare fares worst in my opinion is category 3) but I know zip about Lee in that category. If he's anywhere near Amare then he really does suck at defense. Here's where you guys that have actually paid attention to Lee in a bunch of games could weigh in and settle this thing.

In category 4) I would tend to rate them as equal as Amare has only a very slight edge in 'steals + blocks'.


Though it has nothing to do with defense, I'll remind you that Lee is right up at the top of the list of bigs at handing out assists... fifth behind Duncan, Odom, Diaw & Josh Smith. I would say that indicates he is more team oriented than Amare (any takers on that?) and so would likely be a better team defender.

 

[joshstmarie]

I highly doubt this will be market value 1 or 2 years from now.

Unfortunately for you we arent looking to aquire him in 1-2 years. You can say this about ANY player.

 

[jlove]

If we can get the S&T's done, I'd be ecstatic. Whether it's for TPE, Warrick in S&T and Frye using MLE or Warrick, Frye as stated and Lee in S&T......Maybe if the Suns aren't interested in Lee, they could bring in Atlanta as a 3rd team sending Lee to them, and Josh Smith here (I've conflicting info that Smith and/or Horford are available. I'd rather have Smith considering we have Lopez. Smith would fit the team better.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Whoa! You don't pass on Horford because you have Lopez. You make room for Horford and work Lopez into the mix, or trade him if you can't....

 

[SunsTzu]

Whoa! You don't pass on Horford because you have Lopez. You make room for Horford and work Lopez into the mix, or trade him if you can't....

I don't even see the problem with Horford/Lopez. Horford is a true PF with a very good all around game who is being forced to play C next to an undersized PF. A Lopez/Horford front court probably makes the Suns better than they were a year imo. Getting Smith would be like playing Marion at PF all over again.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

I agree 100%! I'd LOOOOOOVE a Horford-Lopez 4-5 lineup, but my point was directed to the point that we skip Horford because we have Lopez. Horford is a true 4 who I wanted us to trade Amare for before he was drafted (it's in the board archive). Too bad that didn't happen....