Stoudemire agrees to five-year deal with Knicks

[Sunburn]

Unfortunately for you we arent looking to aquire him in 1-2 years. You can say this about ANY player.

And unfortunately for the team that signs him, that "market value" contract will be a bad deal in a mere 1 to 2 years. Considering it will probably be a 4 to 5 year contract that means the majority of it will be a bad deal, unlike ANY player that has signed previously to this year. That's unacceptable. I like Lee, not for 15 million. What you're condoning is an immediate gratification mentality that rarely results in success.

 

[SunsTzu]

Yeah, I'd take Horford over Bosh and Amare and easily over Lee. I think the iso offense the Hawks run is really hiding his ability. He's already an excellent defender, especially at the 4, he's decent in the post and has a good jumper. I'd be doing back flips if the Suns got him.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yeah, I'd take Horford over Bosh and Amare and easily over Lee. I think the iso offense the Hawks run is really hiding his ability. He's already an excellent defender, especially at the 4, he's decent in the post and has a good jumper. I'd be doing back flips if the Suns got him.

Well, he'd certainly cost less than Bosh and Lee... but, 12 pts and 9 boards doesn't get me all that fired up...

 

[joshstmarie]

And unfortunately for the team that signs him, that "market value" contract will be a bad deal in a mere 1 to 2 years. Considering it will probably be a 4 to 5 year contract that means the majority of it will be a bad deal. Unlike ANY player that has signed previously to this year. That's unacceptable. Teams with foresight will see this, plan accordingly, and put themselves in an advantageous position compared with their more nearsighted counterparts. What you're condoning is an immediate gratification mentality that rarely results in success.

Since youve got your crystal ball out Id like to ask you a few questions.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, he'd certainly cost less than Bosh and Lee... but, 12 pts and 9 boards doesn't get me all that fired up...

Forget his stats, he really is a very good (excellent?) all around PF. I'd love to get him on the Suns but I find it highly unlikely. He's a much better defender than the group of Dirk, Lee, Bosh and Amare we've been discussing the past few weeks and he's solid in all other areas.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Since youve got your crystal ball out Id like to ask you a few questions.

I knew you were going to say that.

Steve

 

[Sunburn]

Since youve got your crystal ball out Id like to ask you a few questions.

It's not a crystal ball. It's known fact right now. Salary caps are going down. The new CBA will drastically cut contract salaries even further. This is known. Hello. That's why everybody's opting out this year. To make that one last huge score in free agency while they still have a chance because "market value" is definitely, unequivocally going down. 15 million for David Lee will not be "market value" in 1 to 2 years making the majority of his contract a bad deal. Crystal ball aside, what are your other questions Junior?

 

[SunsTzu]

Well, he'd certainly cost less than Bosh and Lee... but, 12 pts and 9 boards doesn't get me all that fired up...

You're using the career stats of a 3 year player, won't always get a good idea of their ability doing that. Also his career rebounds are closer to 10 a game than 9.

He is a highly efficient scoring big man with good range on his jumper. He's also one of the better interior defenders in the league. PER isn't a stat I really like much but last year he posted a PER of 28 and a defensive PER of 9 at the PF position. Which blows away pretty much every other star PF.

Maybe I'm unreasonably high on him but I see him as a skilled athletic big man with good BBIQ who always hustles. Put him on the Suns and I'm confident he'd get 20ppg/10+rpg while greatly improving the defense.

I just don't see him as a realistic option unfortunately.

 

[joshstmarie]

It's not a crystal ball. It's known fact right now. Salary caps are going down. The new CBA will drastically cut contract salaries even further. This is known. Hello. That's why everybody's opting out this year. To make that one last huge score in free agency while they still have a chance because "market value" is definitely, unequivocally going down. 15 million for David Lee will not be "market value" in 1 to 2 years making the majority of his contract a bad deal. Crystal ball aside, what are your other questions Junior?

Huh, interesting.. so when you took your delorean into the future and sat in all those player/owner meetings what exactly did the salary cap/contracts/years they end up agreeing on? Just for a heads up so we can make more realistic sign & trade fantasy proposals from here on out.

 

[devilalum]

Ha, they are welcome to challenge whatever they'd like, but statistically speaking, I'm correct. According to an ESPN Insider article:

"Lee's defensive liabilities eclipse much of his offensive firepower.

Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes.

As long as we have Nash I would prefer to not bring on board additional defensive liabilities. You can't have two turnstiles on the floor at a time and expect to win on a regular basis.

 

[mojorizen7]

Yes,Horford would be an excellent addition to our nearly toothless frontcourt.
I doubt he's even on the Suns radar though...

Off the top of my head i can think of 2 solid aquisitions the SUNS have made over the years that have gone against the grain...
1) AC Green
2) Kurt Thomas
Three if you count Shaq. These type of additions have been few and far in between IMO.

Why would Atlanta want to move Horford? I think they like their core of JJ,Josh Smith and Horford.

 

[mojorizen7]

As long as we have Nash I would prefer to not bring on board additional defensive liabilities. You can't have two turnstiles on the floor at a time and expect to win on a regular basis.

Amen. The worst defensive core in the NBA is down to just Nash,wait...are we gonna count Channing Frye as being part of the core now...

 

[nashman]

Channing Frye at least has some grit and is not afraid to bring some fouls and attitude, more so than Amare IMHO!

 

[SunsTzu]

Why would Atlanta want to move Horford?

I have no clue. He's up for an extension now but I haven't heard anything about the Hawks pursuing on. Also there have been rumors that he and or Smith might be available and surprisingly to me the fans seems split on who'd they rather have.

 

[Bufalay]

Channing Frye at least has some grit and is not afraid to bring some fouls and attitude, more so than Amare IMHO!

Nice spin, Sarver

 

[AfroSuns]

Channing Frye at least has some grit and is not afraid to bring some fouls and attitude, more so than Amare IMHO!

Foul i will give you. Grit and attitude than Amare. lol, Thanks for the laughs

 

[mojorizen7]

I have no clue. He's up for an extension now but I haven't heard anything about the Hawks pursuing on. Also there have been rumors that he and or Smith might be available and surprisingly to me the fans seems split on who'd they rather have.

Yeah maybe the thinking is that after JSmith's fat long term deal and JJ's new huge contract that they can find another rebounding big who can score for cheaper than resigning Horford. If so,i'd like to know where those guys are...

 

[mojorizen7]

Channing Frye at least has some grit and is not afraid to bring some fouls and attitude, more so than Amare IMHO!

You must be registered for see images

 

[Sunburn]

Huh, interesting.. so when you took your delorean into the future and sat in all those player/owner meetings what exactly did the salary cap/contracts/years they end up agreeing on? Just for a heads up so we can make more realistic sign & trade fantasy proposals from here on out.

Before it was a crystal ball, now it's a DeLorean. Very amusing. Any real points to add? You think I'm just making this stuff up? Salary caps are going down right now. The CBA is going to drastically cut salaries. This is the owner's primary concern and the only way there will be an agreement. If there is no agreement, there will be a lockout. Bottomline, there will be no basketball until salaries are reduced. This is known. This is why everyone that can opt out is opting out this year, to sign a big contract before salaries (market value) go down. Now for the really hard part. We're going to have to use our intuition skills. Can you handle it? I'll lead you through. If contracts are going to get smaller, that means current contracts will be bigger than them. If contracts are going to get smaller, that means these new contracts will be market price. If these new contracts are market price, then the pre-CBA bigger contracts will be over-priced above market value. Yayyyyy we did it. You follow? Or are you going to ask me if I played a ouija board, opened a fortune cookie, called the psychic hotline, etc, again? 15 million for David Lee is arguably already overpriced. In 1 to 2 years it will be way over market value and, thus, be a very bad contract with years remaining on it.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Its not stupid money its MARKET VALUE. Any big man worth his salt is making that kind of money, those are just the first ones that popped out at me.

You clearly just don't get it. Let's try this again, even slower this time. Certain teams will continue to make the mistake of overpaying players for whatever reason. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT OK!!! Just because stupid owners are willing to pay top dollar for Drew Gooden and Darko doesn't mean that every owner has to! Only stupid owners do this. I'm running out of ways to impress this fact on you. Good teams and teams that win championships do not overpay for run of the mill talent. Hell, the names you provided only further my point.

because you go at a 6'9 "center". you know...the last obstacle between ANYONE and the basket.
His atrocious teamates are sitting there leaking out to the other end of the court before the plays even over.
come on dude, Im not calling Lee the best defender youve never heard of, but you cant seriously judge this guy on the NY circus.

Again, this conversation is borderline ridiculous, you completely ignore everything I say. Lee's reputation is as a defender is awful. Further, statistically speaking he's awful. Lee's so bad that Hollinger said "neither plays much defense (although Stoudemire will look like Bill Russell compared to Lee)". Stoudemire look like Bill Russell?!?! What else do you need to hear?

Again, without explanation you continue to bring up his teammates when the gist of my point was in regard to opponents attacking Lee. Since you clearly missed the stat the first time, let's see if it takes this time:

"Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes."

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with his teammates, his friends, his mailman, or anyone else. This is Lee. Stop blaming his horrendous D on his teammates.

One hilarious stat I figured would cheer everyone up is what Warrick does on D. Suns fans will be pining for Stat's "D" once they see Warrick D up.

"In 51 post-up situations with the Bucks, Warrick allowed the opponent to score 58.8 percent of the time. Because of his slender body type he lets the opposition get way too deep, which, at 6-foot-9, doesn’t give him any chance.

And you would think that with his athleticism and wingspan, Warrick would be a good help defender. But he isn’t the shot-blocker you would expect as he collected only 18 blocks last season and has never averaged more than 0.5 blocks per game in his career."

God forbid anything happens to Lopez, between Frye and Warrick we have as soft an interior as any team I can think of.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I knew you were going to say that.

Steve

lol. :rimshot:

 

[elindholm]

More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes.

Since you keep quoting this, can you share Stoudemire's comparable statistic? I'd like to know how big the gap is.

In 51 post-up situations with the Bucks, Warrick allowed the opponent to score 58.8 percent of the time. Because of his slender body type he lets the opposition get way too deep, which, at 6-foot-9, doesn’t give him any chance.

Okay, so there's one big whom Lee bests as a post defender. Where does Stoudemire rank?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Committing 15 million per year for Lee is far too much, especially considering the long term ramifications with a new CBA in place. Many of the contracts signed this offseason will be viewed as crippling post the new agreement. If we can get him for 12 mil or less per year, I'd be ok with it, anything more is too much.

Good examples. Some of you fail to realize, just because other teams are willing to commit stupid money to players doesn't make it a good idea.




You can make all the excuses in the world for him if you'd like, but it still doesn't explain why LEE, not the Knicks, not his mother in law, not his dog, was the player posted up more than anyone last year. You really think that's a coincidence? If his teammates are as horrendous as you claim defensively, than why aren't teams attacking his atrocious teammates?

LOL. That's it, Lee was getting abused in the post because he was the only player on the team willing to give help defense. Glad we got that one figured out.

You clearly just don't get it. Let's try this again, even slower this time. Certain teams will continue to make the mistake of overpaying players for whatever reason. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT OK!!! Just because stupid owners are willing to pay top dollar for Drew Gooden and Darko doesn't mean that every owner has to! Only stupid owners do this. I'm running out of ways to impress this fact on you. Good teams and teams that win championships do not overpay for run of the mill talent. Hell, the names you provided only further my point.






Again, this conversation is borderline ridiculous, you completely ignore everything I say. Lee's reputation is as a defender is awful. Further, statistically speaking he's awful. Lee's so bad that Hollinger said "neither plays much defense (although Stoudemire will look like Bill Russell compared to Lee)". Stoudemire look like Bill Russell?!?! What else do you need to hear?

Again, without explanation you continue to bring up his teammates when the gist of my point was in regard to opponents attacking Lee. Since you clearly missed the stat the first time, let's see if it takes this time:

"Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes."

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with his teammates, his friends, his mailman, or anyone else. This is Lee. Stop blaming his horrendous D on his teammates.

One hilarious stat I figured would cheer everyone up is what Warrick does on D. Suns fans will be pining for Stat's "D" once they see Warrick D up.

"In 51 post-up situations with the Bucks, Warrick allowed the opponent to score 58.8 percent of the time. Because of his slender body type he lets the opposition get way too deep, which, at 6-foot-9, doesn’t give him any chance.

And you would think that with his athleticism and wingspan, Warrick would be a good help defender. But he isn’t the shot-blocker you would expect as he collected only 18 blocks last season and has never averaged more than 0.5 blocks per game in his career."

God forbid anything happens to Lopez, between Frye and Warrick we have as soft an interior as any team I can think of.

Have you ever watched a Knicks game or are you basing your ENTIRE opinion on a paragraph of a John Hollinger article you stole from Insider?

Not to mention in said article, he makes a completely baseless point about the Suns FO not knowing about the S and T implications, information it seems like he stole from an errant reply by Paul Coro to a Suns fan on Twitter. His cred might be a bit in question.

And even then, I still don't think you have watched one minute of David Lee play against any team not named the Suns.

To actually address your point, yeah I would take David Lee at 5 years, 12 million, which I think it the max we would have to pay for him with most of the league being aware his numbers last year are artificial (we don't care because we have the same system AND Steve Nash, so he'll get comprable numbers)

You made a reference how the best teams don't overpay but the Spurs traded for Richard Jefferson and his god awful contract last year, the Lakers are paying Andrew Bynum 15 million the next 3 years and Luke Walton 6. Sometimes you have to overpay to retain talent. Personally getting a plus rebounder and finisher like Lee at 12`million a year is a pretty damn good deal IMO.

I wouldn't go over that for him, but you seem to be throwing around your own personal opinion on the numbers like they are the gospel, when so far the market doesn't seem to be going that way for him.

And if some team gets desperate and gives him 15 million a year, then no thats a bad idea at that point.

Sometimes there is a middle ground.

What I really want to do? Trade for Kevin Love and have a Warrick-Love combo platter for next year.

 

[joshstmarie]

You clearly just don't get it. Let's try this again, even slower this time. Certain teams will continue to make the mistake of overpaying players for whatever reason. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT OK!!! Just because stupid owners are willing to pay top dollar for Drew Gooden and Darko doesn't mean that every owner has to! Only stupid owners do this. I'm running out of ways to impress this fact on you. Good teams and teams that win championships do not overpay for run of the mill talent. Hell, the names you provided only further my point.

Ok so youre comparing an all star to two celebrity allstar game participants. nice.
I do get it. I get that the owners decide who gets what, not you, and not your opinion. I dont think david lee would be morgaging the future or anything of the likes.
If you think the names on that list prove your point then EVERY big man in the league is overpaid...the only one that I can think of off my head that has a decent contract is paul milsap and thats because hes been stashed on the jazz bench for 4 years.

Again, this conversation is borderline ridiculous, you completely ignore everything I say. Lee's reputation is as a defender is awful. Further, statistically speaking he's awful. Lee's so bad that Hollinger said "neither plays much defense (although Stoudemire will look like Bill Russell compared to Lee)". Stoudemire look like Bill Russell?!?! What else do you need to hear?

Again, without explanation you continue to bring up his teammates when the gist of my point was in regard to opponents attacking Lee. Since you clearly missed the stat the first time, let's see if it takes this time:

"Teams make it a nightly priority to abuse Lee on the block. In fact, according to Synergy, he faced more post-up situations per game than any other player in the NBA this past season -- and with good reason. More often than not, on 51.1 percent of post-ups, in fact, Lee either fails to stop his man on the block or sends him to the line, ranking him as one of the worst defending big men in the league among those who play big minutes."

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with his teammates, his friends, his mailman, or anyone else. This is Lee. Stop blaming his horrendous D on his teammates.

One hilarious stat I figured would cheer everyone up is what Warrick does on D. Suns fans will be pining for Stat's "D" once they see Warrick D up.

"In 51 post-up situations with the Bucks, Warrick allowed the opponent to score 58.8 percent of the time. Because of his slender body type he lets the opposition get way too deep, which, at 6-foot-9, doesn’t give him any chance.

And you would think that with his athleticism and wingspan, Warrick would be a good help defender. But he isn’t the shot-blocker you would expect as he collected only 18 blocks last season and has never averaged more than 0.5 blocks per game in his career."

God forbid anything happens to Lopez, between Frye and Warrick we have as soft an interior as any team I can think of.

Holinger doesnt even watch basketball, he basically makes his assumptions off stats. Thats fine if you think or KNOW david lee is a poor defender. If nash is staying here and sarver is keeping the team together then Id like to see us get something for amare, wether it be Horford, Lee or someone thats going to keep us competitive.

I see lee as a guy who can step right in and pick up where amare left off offensively while adding a dimension in rebounding and passing that we havent had since charles barkley. You and all the other lee haters can tunnel vision on his defense or anything else you want.

 

[Sunburn]

The Spurs deeply regretted the decision to bring in Jefferson. The Lakers operate under a payroll model similar to the Yankees. They have a money making market big enough to absorb huge salary liabilities and still turn a profit. Most teams cannot boast this. For smaller market teams, prudence is the key.