Stoudemire willing to help but wants team to add center

[KingLouieLouie]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/0713suns0713.html

Stoudemire willing to help but wants team to add center

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 13, 2004 12:00 AM

Accomplished recruiter of free agents Amaré Stoudemire is ready to make another home visit.

"We've got to get a center," the Suns power forward said Monday, with the urgency of a franchise player who wants space in the paint and help on the boards.

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Stoudemire, part of the party that landed Steve Nash and enticed Quentin Richardson to agree to an offer sheet, has heard his name mentioned as a center option in light of a Shaq-less West and a dwindling number of free agents.

"I'm not playing center," Stoudemire said. "I'm not starting at center. I'm a power forward.

"If I've got to help out at center, I've got no problem with it, but I'm not a starter."

The Suns had hoped to retain forward-center Antonio McDyess, but suitors threw multiyear offers his way.

Despite three left knee surgeries, McDyess did enough in Phoenix to get a four-year, $23 million offer from Detroit. The Detroit Free Press reported he would get a fifth year if he plays 60 games in his fourth season with Detroit.

Free-agent targets such as Adonal Foyle and Mehmet Okur went quickly for high prices. That left lineup hypotheses such as Nash, Richardson, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion and Stoudemire.

"That won't work," Charles Barkley said Monday at Stoudemire's camp in Mesa. "You can't play like that. That's the way Dallas tried to play. It'll work in the regular season, but it won't work in the playoffs."

And as much as Stoudemire dislikes playing center, Marion dislikes playing power forward.

Phoenix is lean on power forwards and centers, with only three returning and Jackson Vroman added in the draft. Jake Voskuhl started 43 games at center last season. Maciej Lampe is a promising 19-year-old with a big body and smooth shooting touch.

Even if Richardson winds up with the Suns, Phoenix could pursue a player such as ex-Suns center Scott Williams for the veteran minimum. However, because Phoenix was under the salary cap entering the signing period, it can't use a cap exception to sign a player.

"We still feel that if all things fall according to plan and we move forward under the pretext that we add a couple of free agents who don't address the five spot, we continue to look at the list of available big men who would play for the veteran exception," Suns President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo said. "Somebody might fall through the cracks and be a good fit."

Richardson is a restricted free agent and could have his deal matched by the Clippers. If the Clippers match the offer, Phoenix would have nearly $8 million in cap space to pursue a free agent or trade.

Free agents can be signed as early as 9 tonight. Nash likely will sign Wednesday.

"I think Nash is a good pickup," Barkley said. "I'm disappointed that they brought in Quentin, because that kind of puts a stigma on Joe Johnson, that they don't think he can play. I think they need to give that kid a chance to develop."

Phoenix also has inquired about unrestricted free agent Vlade Divac, 36.

"I do think the Suns have an interest in Vlade, but it only makes sense if Quentin's deal is matched," said Divac's agent, Marc Fleisher.

Phoenix signed rookie free-agent big men Jerry Holman of Minnesota and Arthur Johnson of Missouri to its summer roster. Assistant Marc Iavaroni called Holman, 6 feet 10 and 222 pounds, the most impressive new player in the first three days of summer camp.

 

[elindholm]

One outside chance is Dikembe Mutumbo, who has one year left on his deal and is being paid $4.5 million by the Knicks (with the rest of his salary coming from New Jersey). If the luxury tax kicks in this coming season, which is looking somewhat likely with all of the expensive free agent signings, Mutombo costs the Knicks $9.0 million. He's not the player he once was, but he's infinitely better than Scott Williams at this point.

If the Clippers retain Richardson, the Suns could offer a second-round pick. The Knicks might get better offers, but if they don't, they could either pocket the savings or use the trade exception to get someone they really want. It could be a useful maneuver for them if they're trying to strengthen the current team.

Mutumbo isn't a good fit with this Suns team, but it's not like anyone else out there is better.

 

[cepstrum]

Mutumbo isn't a good fit with this Suns team, but it's not like anyone else out there is better.

Mutombo seems to think that he is still a dominant center in the league and he just cant quit. I think that would hurt our team more than anything else. You bench the guy and he gets mad. I say we stick to other FA (Doleac just got picked up by Miami! Damnit).

If we can get him for a second rounder though, I say go for it. It seems like a long shot though.

 

[George O'Brien]

The longer I consider it, the more I hope the Clippers match on Richardson. He may be the best player available for the price, but at some point the needs of the team have to be considered. Failure to add a center alientates Amare and Shawn who will have to play out of position and creates uncertainty at SG. All in all, I'd rather have an overpaid center than an underutilized guard.

I'm leaning toward short term solutions like Divac, Williams, and even Mutombo over giving Ostertag a multiyear deal. I'd love to get Dale Davis with only one year left on his contract, but I haven't figured out a good way to do it.

The weird thing is that I have been concerned about his situation for six months. My original concerns involved signing Kobe, but signing Nash and Q created exactly the same issue. The Suns end up without adequate inside help and will be forced to play too much small ball.

 

[elindholm]

It's a little surprising to me that the Suns apparently have (or had) no interest in Etan Thomas. Some rumors now are suggesting that the Wizards may not match him for a big contract, and the Bucks are offering less than the Suns would have been able to. But D'Antoni had those quotes about not spending just to spend, not wanting to overpay, and not being impressed with the big men left on the market.

I'll be very interested to see how Thomas does if he winds up starting for the Bucks. I hope he doesn't prove to be the one that got away.

 

[elindholm]

The weird thing is that I have been concerned about his situation for six months. My original concerns involved signing Kobe, but signing Nash and Q created exactly the same issue.

The argument in favor of Bryant was that his talent was so overwhelming that it was worth sacrificing the center position for a year or possibly more. Whether that would have proved to be the case, we'll never know.

However, I don't think anyone would try to make that argument with Nash and Richardson. Clearly it would have been better to pass up Richardson for a center, had the Suns identified one that they wanted for the price -- but, for whatever reason, they didn't.

 

[sunsfn]

I still do not understand the suns signing of Richardson. It made no sense at the time, and it still does not make any sense.

I have thought that they had another trade in the works that would make sense, they may still have, and that may have entered into the process where the suns had hoped to sign Kobe Bryant or, keep the Clips from signing him.

 

[cepstrum]

The longer I consider it, the more I hope the Clippers match on Richardson. He may be the best player available for the price, but at some point the needs of the team have to be considered. Failure to add a center alientates Amare and Shawn who will have to play out of position and creates uncertainty at SG. All in all, I'd rather have an overpaid center than an underutilized guard.

I'm leaning toward short term solutions like Divac, Williams, and even Mutombo over giving Ostertag a multiyear deal. I'd love to get Dale Davis with only one year left on his contract, but I haven't figured out a good way to do it.

The weird thing is that I have been concerned about his situation for six months. My original concerns involved signing Kobe, but signing Nash and Q created exactly the same issue. The Suns end up without adequate inside help and will be forced to play too much small ball.

If the suns go into the season with a small ball linup, that would be unacceptable, however I still think that Richardson is more valuable than the other centers left (except damp maybe). Have you guys ever heard of the Pelton Center Axiom (see below)

The Pelton Center Axiom argues that centers are so typically overpaid that teams shouldn't spend money on them (unless they're legitimately at All-Star level), instead looking for contributors on the cheap, either as unheralded free agents (*cough* Zendon Hamilton *cough*) or trade pickups or as second-round picks. This money, I argue, can be spent more effectively on the perimeter, where the correlation between salary and performance is much stronger (another study I really, really mean to do). Jake Voskuhl, who will likely start, is on a three-year, $5 million deal. Second-round pick Jackson Vroman will probably be the Suns' primary backup, with Maciej Lampe, a second-round pick last year, also seeing some action. Total cost? about $2.5 million. Difference in production compared to Brian Skinner, Adonal Foyle, and Mark Blount? Not as much as you'd think.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_8976.shtml

It is pretty fitting here

 

[cly2tw]

Q has great trade value. Even if JJ proved to be someone reliable under real pressure, we'd always be able to trade Q for a good center not currently available under the inflated market situation. For the only time window of one year with cap space, you invest it into the best value possible. Makes big business sense to me. Just let your imagination unfold and envision what kind of trading and competing possibilities we'd have down the road with Q on board. Look at the Pistons, you gotta be patient to be able to add the right players one by one over a period when opportunities present themselves in front of us. It's foolish to believe that you can build the right team just in one shot. The last times we did so we were burned with signing Googs and Penny.

 

[elindholm]

Total cost? about $2.5 million. Difference in production compared to Brian Skinner, Adonal Foyle, and Mark Blount? Not as much as you'd think.

That depends on how you define "production." Blount (and Skinner?) will get MLE money -- less than what the Suns are planning to pay Richardson. Pelton's argument would make some sense if the Suns actually planned a center rotation of Voskuhl, Vroman, and Lampe, but we all know they won't -- it will be Stoudemire and small ball the vast majority of the time that Voskuhl is sitting. The presence of another legitimate center on the roster, even if it's someone at what George O'Brien calls the "career backup" level, would mean less small ball.

And that would mean less compromised defensive matchups, fewer offensive rebounds ceded, and less fatigue on the core players who are forced to play out of position. In other words, being able to play real centers (or heck, even two real PFs), even if they aren't very good, has advantages that go far beyond statistical production. And for the money we're talking about, it's a bargain.

I hadn't heard of this particular fan's "axiom" before (and its pretentiousness is remarkably reminiscent of the Spisak Manifesto), but now that I have, I can say I don't agree with it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Clearly it would have been better to pass up Richardson for a center, had the Suns identified one that they wanted for the price -- but, for whatever reason, they didn't.

This whole scenario is why I thought the Suns should have kept Jahidi. If we could have cleared enough cap space to sign Nash, the Suns would have improved their team immensely without making further significant changes. I always thought other teams should have given us at least a pick for Jahidi. Better yet, we should have kept Jahidi.

I think the Suns have an athletic player in mind that can play center... but how well, who knows. Also I think if Q were acquired, a trade for a serviceable center would be forthcoming. The Suns will probably sign a role player to start at center and play center by committee.

Just a thought, Mutombo is better than nothing but he is way too slow.

However, all said and done, I agree with the Suns that almost all these FA centers didn't deserve the big money. Foyle was one of the few centers I liked. I thought Mcdyess was an accident looking for a place to happen.

 

[cepstrum]

I hadn't heard of this particular fan's "axiom" before (and its pretentiousness is remarkably reminiscent of the Spisak Manifesto), but now that I have, I can say I don't agree with it.

LOL its not by spisak. I see what you mean though. I understand your point, but what it comes down to for me is whether I would rather have Q or any of the other remaining centers. And IMO the answer is clear. Q is a much better asset than Ostertag.

 

[SweetD]

Our bench sucked last year!!!! The suns were in alot of games until the bench came in and blew the lead or let the lead get deeper. Q will add alot of depth to our team. I am sure the Suns can move Howard and a pick for a center doesn't have to be an all star but a nice center to take up space and block shots.

 

[BC867]

... a center doesn't have to be an all star but a nice center to take up space and block shots.

Exactly. A role player, but a legitimate Center.

Amare, speaking on behalf of himself and Shawn Marion, has a good head on his shoulders. Starting a Power Forward at Center, and Small Forward at Power Forward, puts the Suns at a disadvantage, over and over again.

Unfortunately, it's been the legacy of the Suns. Keep speaking up, Amare. Maybe you can influence the team philosophy more than anyone else has.

 

[Chaz]

Mutombo, hmm.

IMO he was a bad idea when discussed last season and he has not improved with age.

Amare is right though, he should not be starting at center.


If they don't find somone we may be left with Voskuhl and Lampe. There is bound to be a body to pickup from some place.

 

[elindholm]

IMO he was a bad idea when discussed last season and he has not improved with age.

You'd rather sit on $4.5 million for one year and do absolutely nothing with it to help the team?

 

[Mainstreet]

Amare, speaking on behalf of himself and Shawn Marion, has a good head on his shoulders. Starting a Power Forward at Center, and Small Forward at Power Forward, puts the Suns at a disadvantage, over and over again.

Unfortunately, it's been the legacy of the Suns. Keep speaking up, Amare. Maybe you can influence the team philosophy more than anyone else has.

Agreed. I think the Suns will try to keep Amare happy.

 

[Chaz]

You'd rather sit on $4.5 million for one year and do absolutely nothing with it to help the team?

If the other choice is play Mutombo? yes.

I just think he is a really bad fit for this team. I would rather find some young journeyman type, have him fill in behind Voskuhl and Lampe, and wait for other options.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We have to look at our best possible options at center.

1. Has Ostertag signed? I must have missed it if he has. He could eat up some minutes on the floor at the position. He would be a positive step if not too expensive.

2. Rasheed Wallace. Big offer from Detroit, but no word from Sheed's camp if he's going to accept. Is it possible that he's waiting on Kobe's decision? Sheed could reasonably log 20 minutes a game at center. I know there are some here that would disagree. JMO.

3. Divac. Too much money for too little. I really don't know how much he has left in the tank.

4. Dampier. Would be a great pickup, but how? It would have to be a sign and trade. Marion is too much to give up, everyone else is too little. I can't imagine that the Warriors want picks--they just throw those away. If Q falls through, we could work a S&T for something like Casey and Lampe, and then take back the extra salary $. The Warriors get too decent, inexpensive young players and an extra $7 million in cap space. I would be interested to see how this deal could be done creatively so it would benefit both sides.

5. We could get Big Jake back cheap. Memphis is not resigning him. But why?


Trades

1. I would love to pick up Tyson Chandler. I'm not sure what it would take to get Chicago to let go. He's very similar to Camby in his playing style, which would be perfect for the Suns. He's younger than they want, and has had some injury issues, but he's played more games than Dice the last two years.

2. Who else?

 

[dbUNIT16]

Worst case we end up with little Jake at center, and we've still improved our team, probably not enough to be a serious threat for the west title. Again, I'm not against trading Marion to get another athletic big man, he makes way too much, it might not be suck a bad thing to do.

 

[elindholm]

1. Has Ostertag signed? I must have missed it if he has.

I agree he would be a possibility, but I don't think anyone would be too enthusiastic about signing him to a long-term deal.

2. Rasheed Wallace. Big offer from Detroit, but no word from Sheed's camp if he's going to accept.

I thought I read that they were expecting an announcement tomorrow, but maybe I made that up. In any case, if he turns down big money from Detroit, it will be to go to the Knicks.

3. Divac. Too much money for too little.

Yes. He wants a multi-year deal and will almost certainly get it, from the Lakers if from no one else.

4. Dampier.... If Q falls through, we could work a S&T for something like Casey and Lampe, and then take back the extra salary $.

Probably not enough, and the Suns can't afford to part with Lampe. The only ways to get Dampier are (a) give up Marion, probably in a three-way deal, or (b) hope that somehow Dampier falls through the cracks and can't do any better than a late-July offer from Phoenix with the Richardson money.

5. We could get Big Jake back cheap. Memphis is not resigning him.

Tsakalidis is a restricted free agent. My guess is that Memphis will match anything reasonable for him, and if no offer comes, just give him the one-year qualifying contract.

 

[B-Dogg]

We have to look at our best possible options at center.

1. Has Ostertag signed? I must have missed it if he has. He could eat up some minutes on the floor at the position. He would be a positive step if not too expensive.

2. Rasheed Wallace. Big offer from Detroit, but no word from Sheed's camp if he's going to accept. Is it possible that he's waiting on Kobe's decision? Sheed could reasonably log 20 minutes a game at center. I know there are some here that would disagree. JMO.

3. Divac. Too much money for too little. I really don't know how much he has left in the tank.

4. Dampier. Would be a great pickup, but how? It would have to be a sign and trade. Marion is too much to give up, everyone else is too little. I can't imagine that the Warriors want picks--they just throw those away. If Q falls through, we could work a S&T for something like Casey and Lampe, and then take back the extra salary $. The Warriors get too decent, inexpensive young players and an extra $7 million in cap space. I would be interested to see how this deal could be done creatively so it would benefit both sides.

5. We could get Big Jake back cheap. Memphis is not resigning him. But why?


Trades

1. I would love to pick up Tyson Chandler. I'm not sure what it would take to get Chicago to let go. He's very similar to Camby in his playing style, which would be perfect for the Suns. He's younger than they want, and has had some injury issues, but he's played more games than Dice the last two years.

2. Who else?

KWAME BROWN... He is deffinately big enough to play center against everyone but YAO and SHAQ... Trade the Chicago pick for him. He is ready to break out and would be a great compliment to AMARE... he is worth a shot and is still young...

 

[elindholm]

KWAME BROWN... He is deffinately big enough to play center against everyone but YAO and SHAQ... Trade the Chicago pick for him.

Why not wait until the Clippers match on Richardson, and then use the cap space to trade the Chicago pick and Eisley for Duncan?

 

[F-Dog]

Phoenix also has inquired about unrestricted free agent Vlade Divac, 36.

"I do think the Suns have an interest in Vlade, but it only makes sense if Quentin's deal is matched," said Divac's agent, Marc Fleisher.

This is the only thing in the article that interested me.

Divac on a two-year deal would make a ton of sense for the Suns, and this is the first hint that (1) Divac might still be around if the Clips match Q, and (2) he might be interested in signing with the Suns at all.

It's probably just his agent being unwilling to close doors too early, of course.

 

[George O'Brien]

My guess is that the position will be played by "who's he?" ie a completely unknown scrub at a minimal salary. This will mean that Jake and Lampe will get most of the minutes.

Even before the Q signing I started a thread on "worst case scenerio" in which I argued that the Suns may be counting on Lampe to become their starting center. Dalembert had almost as much impact as Lampe his rookie year and came on strong his secod year. To give some perspective, Dalembert played on 177 minutes as a rookie but ended up averaging 26.8 minutes a game with 7.8 rpg and 8 ppg.

Obviously there are huge risks in starting a untested player who is barely 19, but the Suns had pretty good luck with that the last time they did it. My guess is that Lampe will struggle more on defense than on offense, but that has been true with most Sun's inside guys.

My suspicion is that Lampe would benefit enormously from getting a lot of minutes. He will screw up a lot, but perhaps by the next season he will be ready to be an impact player. He has the size and talent even if he has not really shown it yet.

Is this a good plan? I don't know. I hate putting the entire season in the hands of a guy with 225 minutes of NBA experience on a team with zero depth.