Studying BA's Offense

[bg7brd]

If Zach Ertz is sitting there in the 2nd, it wouldn't shock me if they picked him up.

Or could you imagine the Cards manipulating the draft to where they traded down in the 1st and 2nd and still got Warmack & Ertz along with two more good picks!

Warmack and Ertz would be a nice 1-2.

 

[Chopper0080]

Imagine This:

1. Tavon Austin, 5-8 1/2, 175, 4.34, WR/RB/KR, West Virginia
2. Zach Ertz, 6-6, 250, 4.7, TE, Stanford
3. Dallas Thomas, 6-5, 308, G/T, Tennessee
4. Brandon Jenkins, 6-3, 265, OLB/DE, Florida St.
5. David Quessenberry, 6-5, 295, T/G/C, San Jose St.
6. Duke Williams, 5-11, 203, SS, Nevada
7. Jake Knott, 6-2, 240, WILB, Iowa St.

imo, that draft gets us to the playoffs this year.

That draft gets Carson Palmer killed.

I don't see how the key to improving a poor line with average talent is to add more average talent.

This team's issue is it's inability to protect the QB. Plain and simple. How do we improve this?

Improve the pass blocking.

Improve the running game.

What players help in improving these areas? OTs, OGs, Cs, RBs, TEs & QBs. Nowhere on that list is WR, because WR does very little to help those areas.

 

[Chopper0080]

Warmack and Ertz would be a nice 1-2.

Agreed.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That draft gets Carson Palmer killed.

I don't see how the key to improving a poor line with average talent is to add more average talent.

This team's issue is it's inability to protect the QB. Plain and simple. How do we improve this?

Improve the pass blocking.

Improve the running game.

What players help in improving these areas? OTs, OGs, Cs, RBs, TEs & QBs. Nowhere on that list is WR, because WR does very little to help those areas.

Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, but WRs like Austin actually do help the QB because he will allow the QB to get the ball out quickly on a lot of short routes and bubble screens. Also if the defender is in off coverage Palmer could easily signal Austin to just turn and catch the ball rather than running his route. Bottom line is that he allows the QB to get the ball out quickly more often.

 

[kerouac9]

Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, but WRs like Austin actually do help the QB because he will allow the QB to get the ball out quickly on a lot of short routes and bubble screens. Also if the defender is in off coverage Palmer could easily signal Austin to just turn and catch the ball rather than running his route. Bottom line is that he allows the QB to get the ball out quickly more often.

Any WR, not a "WR like Austin." Any WR can run a short route or bubble screen.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Any WR, not a "WR like Austin." Any WR can run a short route or bubble screen.

Duh..

That doesn't mean they can all run them with the effectiveness of what TA would. If you throw a bubble screen to a WR that isn't fast and quick than it is less likely to be an effective play. Also a guy like TA is much more likely to get open quickly on a short route than a bigger and slower receiver. Do you really believe that all receivers in the NFL are equal? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Drafting a 5'8" WR with the #8 overall pick would be an epic disaster IMO. The Cardinals need to draft an OT or Pass Rusher at that spot.

Correct. Winner.

 

[kerouac9]

Duh..

That doesn't mean they can all run them with the effectiveness of what TA would. If you throw a bubble screen to a WR that isn't fast and quick than it is less likely to be an effective play. Also a guy like TA is much more likely to get open quickly on a short route than a bigger and slower receiver. Do you really believe that all receivers in the NFL are equal? Because that's what it sounds like.

No. The Bubble screen is ALWAYS open, because the ball comes out fast. The route itself is designed to be a quick, easy completion. A bubble screen to Austin is no different than one to Roberts or Fitz or Floyd from Palmer's perspective--which was your original point.

I'm with you that Austin may be more effective after the catch than the guys we have, but that only further encourages opponents to sit on the short pass, and makes no difference to the protection of Palmer.

 

[red desert]

I'm with you that Austin may be more effective after the catch than the guys we have, but that only further encourages opponents to sit on the short pass, and makes no difference to the protection of Palmer.

Like H E double hockey sticks it doesn't. It affects the numbers and manner in which the rush comes to Palmer. They see TA in position for a bubble screen, especially after we've used it successfully a few times, and their focus will be shifted from Palmer if only of a wee bit.

Makes a difference.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

No. The Bubble screen is ALWAYS open, because the ball comes out fast. The route itself is designed to be a quick, easy completion. A bubble screen to Austin is no different than one to Roberts or Fitz or Floyd from Palmer's perspective--which was your original point.

I'm with you that Austin may be more effective after the catch than the guys we have, but that only further encourages opponents to sit on the short pass, and makes no difference to the protection of Palmer.

The RAC is precisely the reason why I believe they would go to these routes more often with Austin than anyone else. Because his quickness, speed and vision would allow them to pick up positive gains very consistently and he is always capable of turning any one of those routs into a long TD.

 

[kerouac9]

Like H E double hockey sticks it doesn't. It affects the numbers and manner in which the rush comes to Palmer. They see TA in position for a bubble screen, especially after we've used it successfully a few times, and their focus will be shifted from Palmer if only of a wee bit.

Makes a difference.

The RAC is precisely the reason why I believe they would go to these routes more often with Austin than anyone else. Because his quickness, speed and vision would allow them to pick up positive gains very consistently and he is always capable of turning any one of those routs into a long TD.

Fine, fellas. Prove your work. I've offered my explanation as why there's no strategic advantage to bubble screens or quick ins/outs/slants to Austin over Andre Roberts. Let's say that on average Austin gains 50% more yardage than Andre Roberts on an bubble screen: 9 yards instead of 6. How does this make a difference in the level of protection for Carson Palmer, and (more importantly) the productivity of the rushing offense?

Let's assume that the completion percentage for both players is going to remain constant. There's a very, very small chance that Palmer is going to be sacked or even hit in the scenario when there's a two-step drop and throw to either guy--a pass that would be about 9-12 yards through the air.

How is Palmer afforded more protection?

 

[52brandon]

what about moving Byrd to TE? He's a big physical WR who's never been scared to catch over the middle. Never seen him play against starters, but he looked pretty good vs backups. I don't see any reason to not give him a shot at it. It's a pretty no-lose situation. He doesn't work, he stays where he is, he does work and we address a need we have with a player already on the roster

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Fine, fellas. Prove your work. I've offered my explanation as why there's no strategic advantage to bubble screens or quick ins/outs/slants to Austin over Andre Roberts. Let's say that on average Austin gains 50% more yardage than Andre Roberts on an bubble screen: 9 yards instead of 6. How does this make a difference in the level of protection for Carson Palmer, and (more importantly) the productivity of the rushing offense?

Let's assume that the completion percentage for both players is going to remain constant. There's a very, very small chance that Palmer is going to be sacked or even hit in the scenario when there's a two-step drop and throw to either guy--a pass that would be about 9-12 yards through the air.

How is Palmer afforded more protection?

My point was that the team would likely look for those routes more often with Austin on the roster. That would help the protection a little because its more plays that gets the ball out of Palmer's hands quikly. I'm not even sporting Austin over Fischer or Warmack, but I wouldn't be upset if they drafted Austin.

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[Cardiac]

Fine, fellas. Prove your work. I've offered my explanation as why there's no strategic advantage to bubble screens or quick ins/outs/slants to Austin over Andre Roberts. Let's say that on average Austin gains 50% more yardage than Andre Roberts on an bubble screen: 9 yards instead of 6. How does this make a difference in the level of protection for Carson Palmer, and (more importantly) the productivity of the rushing offense?

Let's assume that the completion percentage for both players is going to remain constant. There's a very, very small chance that Palmer is going to be sacked or even hit in the scenario when there's a two-step drop and throw to either guy--a pass that would be about 9-12 yards through the air.

How is Palmer afforded more protection?

I hear you and think the point is that if Austin is everything some believe he is then D's will blitz less because they will want more help stopping the bubble screens.

So in theory Austin will cause teams to put a man up on Austin at the LOS and also have a DB cheating to his side as well. With Fitz usually commanding double coverage then that's 4 or your back 7 devoted to 2 Cards.

Teams won't want to blitz and keep more defenders back in coverage.

Without Batiste as our LT the Oline should be able to hold up better against 4 and 3 man rushers.

I still want the Oline improved before investing a #7 overall pick on a midget albeit fast/shifty WR.

 

[kerouac9]

My point was that the team would likely look for those routes more often with Austin on the roster. That would help the protection a little because its more plays that gets the ball out of Palmer's hands quikly. I'm not even sporting Austin over Fischer or Warmack, but I wouldn't be upset if they drafted Austin.

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If they want to protect Palmer with those passes, it won't make any difference whether Austin or Roberts are catching them. The protection is the same for Palmer no matter who it is.

I'll concede that Austin would be more productive on such plays, I just think that it's disingenuous to say that drafting Austin would somehow improve the protection for Palmer on short-passing routes.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, but WRs like Austin actually do help the QB because he will allow the QB to get the ball out quickly on a lot of short routes and bubble screens. Also if the defender is in off coverage Palmer could easily signal Austin to just turn and catch the ball rather than running his route. Bottom line is that he allows the QB to get the ball out quickly more often.

And we have Andre Roberts, a known quantity, to do just that.

 

[Chopper0080]

My point was that the team would likely look for those routes more often with Austin on the roster. That would help the protection a little because its more plays that gets the ball out of Palmer's hands quikly. I'm not even sporting Austin over Fischer or Warmack, but I wouldn't be upset if they drafted Austin.

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So you believe that drawing defensive players closer to the LOS hinders their ability to blitz and helps with protection?

That makes no sense. As far as bubble screens to Tavon Austin at a high frequency, how many times a game do you think teams will play off coverage against Austin? Consider most teams press man vs. quicker players in order to prevent bubble screens and slow that player down coming off the line of scrimmage. Steve Smith wins off the line because he is quick AND powerful. Austin has only shown the ability to win off the line with quickness and that was against awful college CBs.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

If they want to protect Palmer with those passes, it won't make any difference whether Austin or Roberts are catching them. The protection is the same for Palmer no matter who it is.

I'll concede that Austin would be more productive on such plays, I just think that it's disingenuous to say that drafting Austin would somehow improve the protection for Palmer on short-passing routes.

I never said that the protection would be better on those passes with Austin, but only that they would likely run more of them with someone who is very productive while running those routes.

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[CardsSunsDbacks]

So you believe that drawing defensive players closer to the LOS hinders their ability to blitz and helps with protection?

That makes no sense. As far as bubble screens to Tavon Austin at a high frequency, how many times a game do you think teams will play off coverage against Austin? Consider most teams press man vs. quicker players in order to prevent bubble screens and slow that player down coming off the line of scrimmage. Steve Smith wins off the line because he is quick AND powerful. Austin has only shown the ability to win off the line with quickness and that was against awful college CBs.

No I don't think that. I think getting the ball out of Palmer's hands quicker would help keep rushers off him.

Also I wasn't specifically talking about bubble screens, but any route that is quick developing. Screens, drags, slants and short ins and outs to name a few.

By no means am I saying that this would stop the defense from geting to the QB faster, but only that it would get the ball out of Palmers hands fast more often.

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[kerouac9]

I never said that the protection would be better on those passes with Austin, but only that they would likely run more of them with someone who is very productive while running those routes.

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Whatever you say, bro:

Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, but WRs like Austin actually do help the QB because he will allow the QB to get the ball out quickly on a lot of short routes and bubble screens. Also if the defender is in off coverage Palmer could easily signal Austin to just turn and catch the ball rather than running his route. Bottom line is that he allows the QB to get the ball out quickly more often.

So what you meant to say here was "Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, and it won't happen if we draft Austin, either"? Thanks for sharing, I guess.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Whatever you say, bro:



So what you meant to say here was "Generally speaking WRs don't help in protecting the QB from getting killed, and it won't happen if we draft Austin, either"? Thanks for sharing, I guess.

Ok just answer this question. Does getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly help protect the QB from getting killed?

The way I see it that does help the QB. Am I saying that I would rather have Austin than line help? No, but I wouldn't be upset if the pick was Austin because he will make a ton of big plays.

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[Darkside]

Have to add my two cents. I'm against picking TA but I still agree with those saying drafting him helps protect Palmer. It would. Those screens, bubble screens, throws to the flats, all that stuff helps your misdirection game and slows down the rush. There's a huge, gigantic difference between 3rd and 1 and 3rd and 6 (in reference to Tavon picking up 9 yards compared to Roberts 4 or 5). Gives you the option to run for the first down, or play action deep etc. Whole different scenario.

That being said I'd still go Warmack or one of the T's because it offers MORE protection on a higher percentage of plays than merely running our misdirection plays. The philosophy should be to keep them off balance, so you can't run screens and short passes all game every game and be successful.

Tavon is a luxury pick, the oline is a NEED.



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[red desert]

Fine, fellas. Prove your work. I've offered my explanation as why there's no strategic advantage to bubble screens or quick ins/outs/slants to Austin over Andre Roberts. Let's say that on average Austin gains 50% more yardage than Andre Roberts on an bubble screen: 9 yards instead of 6. How does this make a difference in the level of protection for Carson Palmer, and (more importantly) the productivity of the rushing offense?

Let's assume that the completion percentage for both players is going to remain constant. There's a very, very small chance that Palmer is going to be sacked or even hit in the scenario when there's a two-step drop and throw to either guy--a pass that would be about 9-12 yards through the air.

How is Palmer afforded more protection?

What explanation? What strategic advantage? You haven't offered anything of the sort.

Estas loco, K9. Crazy.

 

[Jim Otis]

With TA in the lineup , how did WVa lose 6 of their last 8 games , if TA is such a game changer ? I hold this as a fair question .

 

[kerouac9]

Ok just answer this question. Does getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly help protect the QB from getting killed?

Of course it does. What does that have to do with Tavon Austin, though?

The way I see it that does help the QB. Am I saying that I would rather have Austin than line help? No, but I wouldn't be upset if the pick was Austin because he will make a ton of big plays.

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COULD, not WILL. I'd argue that this team doesn't need another source for "big plays." I think we have an established one in Fitz and a potential one in Michael Floyd. What we need is a source for the dependable 4-6 yard plays that allow those big plays to happen.