Summer League 2018

[DevonCardsFan]

JJ has certainly regressed. But it's SL. He's not playing with his head he's playing with his heart. And his heart is a candle burning at both ends. Triano did a SUPERB job of reaching him last year. I'd bet that Igor will reinspire him to slow down when the season starts. I'm far more concerned that he didn't correctly work on his shot in the off season. I had hopes that he would do the opposite of Marion, but it looks like I was dreaming.

It hasn't been a miracle that we're winning. We are playing championship style Defense in the SL. And no one has the talent we're putting on the court. It was more evident against Sacramento than anyone. They have a ton of known prospects too and the game wasn't really that close. We potentially have 4 regular season starters on the court.

Jackson is just chucking it and I don't think he understands his role yet on Igor's team, it's a new offense. When he stops chicking it and becomes a playmaker he will be fine

 

[Hoop Head]

You just don't see much good post play in the NBA anymore. I know Hakeem still holds his summer camps for bigs and NBA players though and I hope the Suns push Ayton to attend, or go on his own. Chandler has been there before but so has Kobe. There's a lot someone can learn form a teacher like the Dream. The key thing though is Ayton is a player willing to learn, which is big, when Chandler attended he was already in his 30's and wasn't going to be used in the post by anyone so it was kind of pointless. However some guys like Kobe go later but he was always a student of the game, trying to find ways to get better.

 

[Folster]

You just don't see much good post play in the NBA anymore. I know Hakeem still holds his summer camps for bigs and NBA players though and I hope the Suns push Ayton to attend, or go on his own. Chandler has been there before but so has Kobe. There's a lot someone can learn form a teacher like the Dream. The key thing though is Ayton is a player willing to learn, which is big, when Chandler attended he was already in his 30's and wasn't going to be used in the post by anyone so it was kind of pointless. However some guys like Kobe go later but he was always a student of the game, trying to find ways to get better.

I remember when we sent Gortat and Garret Siler to Hakeem's camp. Garret Siler seemed like a nice guy, but he had no business on an NBA roster. One of Lance Blanks' finds. I wonder what Hakeem thought of him. As long as we paid I guess.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You just don't see much good post play in the NBA anymore. I know Hakeem still holds his summer camps for bigs and NBA players though and I hope the Suns push Ayton to attend, or go on his own. Chandler has been there before but so has Kobe. There's a lot someone can learn form a teacher like the Dream. The key thing though is Ayton is a player willing to learn, which is big, when Chandler attended he was already in his 30's and wasn't going to be used in the post by anyone so it was kind of pointless. However some guys like Kobe go later but he was always a student of the game, trying to find ways to get better.

Post offense is considered inefficient by most analytics guys these days and coaches will not let players do it often. There is a video out there by Dan DAntoni absolutely ridiculing the use of the post game in the modern nba.

 

[Hoop Head]

Post offense is considered inefficient by most analytics guys these days and coaches will not let players do it often. There is a video out there by Dan DAntoni absolutely ridiculing the use of the post game in the modern nba.

It can be bashed all day long, that doesn't change it's effectiveness when the game inevitably slows down or if you have a player that excels at playing that way. I know you said Dan D'Antoni and not Mike but they both follow the same philosophies of it being better to jack up 3's all day because even making 35% of 40 3pt attempts it's better than making 50% of 40 attempted 2's. While that is true in theory, it doesn't jive with how the NBA game is played. Didn't Houston shoot horribly in game 7 vs the Warriors? They went 7-44 from 3 and shot themselves out of the game. That happened in most of their losses, that game wasn't an anomaly.

It's all about being able to score and some nights, long distance shots won't be falling. Being able to slow things down to set the pace and keep the other team from running you out of the gym, is what's needed. Playing through a big in the post is one the best way to go. Jordan did to win titles, Kobe did it for titles, the list goes on and on. You can point to any NBA Champs over the last 30 years and each one has a good to great post player. Not just being able to score from the post themselves but being able to create for others as well. Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, almost every great big could do that and Ayton is a good enough passer that I think he can too. We don't need to do it the whole game but being able to go to that even to compose our team and slow things down is something that the Suns should be able to do.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It can be bashed all day long, that doesn't change it's effectiveness when the game inevitably slows down or if you have a player that excels at playing that way. I know you said Dan D'Antoni and not Mike but they both follow the same philosophies of it being better to jack up 3's all day because even making 35% of 40 3pt attempts it's better than making 50% of 40 attempted 2's. While that is true in theory, it doesn't jive with how the NBA game is played. Didn't Houston shoot horribly in game 7 vs the Warriors? They went 7-44 from 3 and shot themselves out of the game. That happened in most of their losses, that game wasn't an anomaly.

It's all about being able to score and some nights, long distance shots won't be falling. Being able to slow things down to set the pace and keep the other team from running you out of the gym, is what's needed. Playing through a big in the post is one the best way to go. Jordan did to win titles, Kobe did it for titles, the list goes on and on. You can point to any NBA Champs over the last 30 years and each one has a good to great post player. Not just being able to score from the post themselves but being able to create for others as well. Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, almost every great big could do that and Ayton is a good enough passer that I think he can too. We don't need to do it the whole game but being able to go to that even to compose our team and slow things down is something that the Suns should be able to do.

Also it is well within the realm of possibility that Ayton will average 20+ points on 60+% from the field. That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Also it is well within the realm of possibility that Ayton will average 20+ points on 60+% from the field. That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three.

Yes. That also spaces the floor. When you have a player inside that can score with that type of consistency it makes it so much harder to cover the three point line.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Also it is well within the realm of possibility that Ayton will average 20+ points on 60+% from the field. That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three.

There's so many good reasons to start down low. If Ayton develops his passing as we hope, he'll create open looks for Booker, Bridges et al from 3 as well as open lanes for Warren and JJ cutting down low. This doesn't even factor the generally increased rate of fouls down low.

And the thing is, this doesn't have to be a dump it in and grind it out style. A good solid pick and roll with Ayton diving hard creates all the same opportunities.

 

[Raze]

Also it is well within the realm of possibility that Ayton will average 20+ points on 60+% from the field. That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three.

Great discussion fellas.

Two things to add:

1) Ayton will also be able to draw contact in the post which will get him to the free throw line. There just aren't a lot of fouls committed on the perimeter, but a guy can make a living off of low post fouls. Ayton is good free throw shooter. If he can finish through contact (which he has shown to be more than capable of) he will make a good number of 3 point plays AND tally fouls against his opponents.

2) While low post offense has taken a nose dive since Barkley's days, so has low post defense. One on one, a lot of bigs don't know how to defend a guy like Ayton. So up-and-unders, hooks, base line J's (all things Ayton has shown) will wreak havoc on the litany of poor low post defenders. Couple this with his good FT% and he could really do some damage.

These "era' discussions are often short sighted. Sports philosophies tend to be cyclical. They almost always center around the trend setter that's currently winning. Well, GS is currently winning so everyone is trying to emulate them. Times always change. In ten years everyone will be talking about trying to emulate the Suns inside-out game with Ayton/Book, because we've won 3 championships.

(I hated this team, but Hakeem's Rockets had a good model for us to learn from: one dominant low post player who can pass and 4 dangerous shooters. There's no reason we can't do the same. Especially in this era.)

 

[taz02]

Does anyone have a stat that shows the league wide 3p%. Regular season v. playoffs.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Also it is well within the realm of possibility that Ayton will average 20+ points on 60+% from the field. That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three.

6/10 from 2 is 12 points

4/10 from 3 is 12 points

Equally as efficient.

 

[Raindog]

Great discussion fellas.

Two things to add:

1) Ayton will also be able to draw contact in the post which will get him to the free throw line. There just aren't a lot of fouls committed on the perimeter, but a guy can make a living off of low post fouls. Ayton is good free throw shooter. If he can finish through contact (which he has shown to be more than capable of) he will make a good number of 3 point plays AND tally fouls against his opponents.

2) While low post offense has taken a nose dive since Barkley's days, so has low post defense. One on one, a lot of bigs don't know how to defend a guy like Ayton. So up-and-unders, hooks, base line J's (all things Ayton has shown) will wreak havoc on the litany of poor low post defenders. Couple this with his good FT% and he could really do some damage.

These "era' discussions are often short sighted. Sports philosophies tend to be cyclical. They almost always center around the trend setter that's currently winning. Well, GS is currently winning so everyone is trying to emulate them. Times always change. In ten years everyone will be talking about trying to emulate the Suns inside-out game with Ayton/Book, because we've won 3 championships.

(I hated this team, but Hakeem's Rockets had a good model for us to learn from: one dominant low post player who can pass and 4 dangerous shooters. There's no reason we can't do the same. Especially in this era.)

Great takes, Raze! Absolutely... I have been preaching this for months. I am glad that posters on this forum get it... unlike some other Suns boards where people are still whining that we haven't drafted/traded for/signed an entire roster of 3-and-D swings and signed Clint Capela to play the post, so we can be "just exactly" like GSW or the Rockets.

 

[Raindog]

6/10 from 2 is 12 points

4/10 from 3 is 12 points

Equally as efficient.

Except 6/10 from 2 (close to the hoop) is substantially easier than 4/10 from 3 (much further from the hoop).

 

[Raindog]

Post offense is considered inefficient by most analytics guys these days and coaches will not let players do it often. There is a video out there by Dan DAntoni absolutely ridiculing the use of the post game in the modern nba.

And all those titles that D'Antoni has won lend so much credence to his takes.

 

[Superbone]

6/10 from 2 is 12 points

4/10 from 3 is 12 points

Equally as efficient.

Which is exactly what he said. 60+%. "That is just as or more efficient than 40% from three." Note the '+'.

 

[leclerc]

Plus you draw more fouls on the inside (inside, Knight), so there's freebies and foul trouble as well. Duh.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Except 6/10 from 2 (close to the hoop) is substantially easier than 4/10 from 3 (much further from the hoop).

I don't disagree, and this is also not considering that if you are shooting 60% in the post, you're going to draw fouls AND and 1 opportunities.

I'm in love with Ayton so far. Watched some of the Kings game and even though he needs a lot of work, the kid is going to be great if he stays healthy and grows at average player development rate.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

6/10 from 2 is 12 points

4/10 from 3 is 12 points

Equally as efficient.

Yep and also it means fewer missed shots and likely less long rebounds that lead to transition opportunities for the other team. The key is to have a good balance of shooting around Ayton and I think we already have quite a few of those pieces in place already.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That summer league was a jolt of reality with Atyon, Okobo, and Bridges. Hmm. I sure would have liked to have a sweeter taste in my mouth going into the dog days of August.

 

[Chaplin]

That summer league was a jolt of reality with Atyon, Okobo, and Bridges. Hmm. I sure would have liked to have a sweeter taste in my mouth going into the dog days of August.

Training camp is going to be so important with this group. I'm glad that Igor is here now and can properly prepare. When was the last good training camp the Suns had? Back when Gentry was coach? Maybe Hornacek?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Training camp is going to be so important with this group. I'm glad that Igor is here now and can properly prepare. When was the last good training camp the Suns had? Back when Gentry was coach? Maybe Hornacek?

I am very encouraged by the fact that we have Igor as a coach. I am also encouraged at having Ariza on the roster. It would be nice to add a very competitive, aggressive veteran pg to this roster. Ideally it would be a PJ Tucker version of a pg--highly competitive, never takes plays off, kicks the butt of those who do. It would help if he is pass first.

 

[jlove]

Can't blame PG play too much regarding DA. When he gets in the post, he gets pushed around and doesn't seal his defender and angle himself for a good post pass therefore a lot of turnovers. He's had flashes so far but he's been playing like a boy amongst men too much so far. He needs to assert himself from start to finish.

Reed needs to continue his great 2 way game. He's earned a spot IMO.

Shaq deserves a spot...however, if we can get a trade for a legit PG, then he's gone unless the push Elie over to NAZ.

 

[Cheesebeef]

what exactly are y'all expecting this season, from the rookies/win totals?

Here's what I'm expecting:

Record: 31 wins up from 21
Ayton: 14/8
Bridges: 10/3, shooting 35% from 3
Okombo: Next to nothing. He's a second round very raw rookie who will probably take at least a couple years to turn into anything if he does at all.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

what exactly are y'all expecting this season, from the rookies/win totals?

Here's what I'm expecting:

Record: 31 wins up from 21
Ayton: 14/8
Bridges: 10/3, shooting 35% from 3
Okombo: Next to nothing. He's a second round very raw rookie who will probably take at least a couple years to turn into anything if he does at all.

Record: 35-40 wins (unless we have a major move via trade coming)
Ayton: Somewhere around 15/10
Bridges: 10/3 seems like it could be accurate, but depends largely on playing time and I could see somewhere in the realm of 40% from three
Okobo: Wouldn't expect him to average more than about 10-15 minutes per game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Record: 35-40 wins (unless we have a major move via trade coming)

Man... I think that's a pretty huge jump.

Ayton: Somewhere around 15/10
Bridges: 10/3 seems like it could be accurate, but depends largely on playing time and I could see somewhere in the realm of 40% from three

40% from 3 would make him one of the best shooters in the game. I think that's unrealistic for a rookie where he's going to have to adjust to the speed/size and athleticism in the league. He might eventually get there, but remember, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he's that hot right out of the gate.

Okobo: Wouldn't expect him to average more than about 10-15 minutes per game.

agreed... if that. I can see him spending a good chunk of the season in the G-league.