Summer League 2018

[Chaplin]

I've defended Bender based on the fact that he is so young but at this point we should be seeing some growth. He is basically the same player he was 2 years ago. Can anybody really identify an area in which he has improved?

Defense

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Per

Ouch. The Suns have two on the list, Bender and Jackson.

However, the list consists of only 5 players. I'm thinking the list should have been much longer.

perhaps but if they were calling out the 5 most egregious it’s disconterting that 2 were ours.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's interesting that it's almost all bigs listed. Bender, Henry Ellenson (Pistons), Josh Jackson, Terrence Ferguson (Thunder), and TJ Leaf (Pacers). Ferguson and Jackson are more wings but they're combo forwards in today's NBA more than guard/forwards of years past. Bender, Ellenson, and Leaf are all bigs though, definitely. It seems that Bleacher Report isn't subscribing to the SL is for guards line of thinking if they singled out 5 forwards to call out.

Can we really chalk up bender and JJ to that theory? I watched every game. They just stunk. It wasn’t about getting frozen by guards. They just flat out stunk.

 

[Hoop Head]

Can we really chalk up bender and JJ to that theory? I watched every game. They just stunk. It wasn’t about getting frozen by guards. They just flat out stunk.

I find the theory questionable at best. I know I tried understanding it more during the game threads but I'm not convinced there is much of a bias. If anything it might only explain why some guards looked better than they usually do compared to why some bigs looked bad.

Bender looked like Bender. There really wasn't a change from the player we saw last season and who he was in SL.

JJ was a bit more out control but I think that had to do with him trying to do too much. He played poorly but it wasn't like Bender bad. You could see flashes of skill and talent but he wasn't able to properly harness his energy and exert it in the right way. He looked similar to how he did at the beginning of last season only with more confidence.

I didn't see the real big vs small discrepancy that some tried pointing out. I think there are numerous ways to look at why or how some players stood out while others didn't but ultimately it's just SL and I think the importance has been overblown to a certain degree.

The only talk of guards vs forwards or big vs small that I saw was here. I haven't seen that sort of thing discussed outside of this message board. I don't think it's without reason entirely but I didn't see a very strong case for that line of thinking this year.

 

[GatorAZ]

Frye with some defensive versatility is what Bender needs to focus on. Less is more for him.

 

[Mainstreet]

I've defended Bender based on the fact that he is so young but at this point we should be seeing some growth. He is basically the same player he was 2 years ago. Can anybody really identify an area in which he has improved?

Bender improved across the board from his first year to his second year... shooting, rebounding and defense The hope is he keeps improving each season. Minimally he is a role player at this point in time.

 

[Mainstreet]

Per

perhaps but if they were calling out the 5 most egregious it’s disconterting that 2 were ours.

There is no denying that Bender and Jackson under performed in summer league. They are easy to spot based on where they were drafted.

 

[Hoop Head]

Bender improved across the board from his first year to his second year... shooting, rebounding and defense The hope is he keeps improving each season. Minimally he is a role player at this point in time.

I don't know if Bender really improved between his 1st and 2nd season so much as we got to see a lot more of him. Yes, his percentages and averages improved but so did his playing time. This year will be a real test because I think he'll see close to the same amount of playing time as last year but he needs to show he deserves the minutes he's getting. If his numbers aren't at least the same as last year, it'll be time to start exploring other options, whatever those may be. He really needs to show some progress this year though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't know if Bender really improved between his 1st and 2nd season so much as we got to see a lot more of him. Yes, his percentages and averages improved but so did his playing time. This year will be a real test because I think he'll see close to the same amount of playing time as last year but he needs to show he deserves the minutes he's getting. If his numbers aren't at least the same as last year, it'll be time to start exploring other options, whatever those may be. He really needs to show some progress this year though.

I’m not meaning to be snarky but isn’t the increase in averages and percentages in more minutes almost the definition of improvement?

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't know if Bender really improved between his 1st and 2nd season so much as we got to see a lot more of him. Yes, his percentages and averages improved but so did his playing time. This year will be a real test because I think he'll see close to the same amount of playing time as last year but he needs to show he deserves the minutes he's getting. If his numbers aren't at least the same as last year, it'll be time to start exploring other options, whatever those may be. He really needs to show some progress this year though.

This appears to be one of the reasons signing Ariza was a priority.

However, I wish the Suns had more salary space to be a buyer with players like Harrell still out there.

 

[Hoop Head]

I’m not meaning to be snarky but isn’t the increase in averages and percentages in more minutes almost the definition of improvement?

If a player averaged 2 points in 10 minutes and you start giving him 20 minutes a game and he's scoring 4 points a game, did he improve? Not really. The increase is in direct relation to the increase in playing time. For him to improve he'd need to produce more than he did previously, scoring like 6 points in 20 minutes of playing time would be an improvement because then he's actually showing a true increase compared to his previous play. His per minute production stayed the same before, whether he was playing 10 minutes or 20 minutes, he was still only good for 1 point every 5 minutes. Get what I'm saying?

 

[Hoop Head]

I’m not meaning to be snarky but isn’t the increase in averages and percentages in more minutes almost the definition of improvement?

I could have explained it better initially but most saw what he did over his first two years. He had such a small sample size in his rookie season that his shooting percentages were quite low in his 1st year. He didn't shoot enough to get a clear picture of what sort of shooter he was though and relying solely on his shooting percentages gave the idea he was a much worse shooter than he was. Like how he shot 36% from the FT line but he only shot 11 FT's so it's tough to say he's that poor of a FT shooter based on 11 attempts. Once he got more attempts he was able to bring his percentage up but it's still doesn't show him as a good or great FT shooter, but it represents his ability much more accurately than his rookie numbers did. In his second year he shot 51 FT's and made 76%, bringing his career percentage to 69% in total. He is roughly a 70% FT shooter and his career stats reflect that. It's not that much different than his 2nd year numbers but it is quite different than his rookie year stats. Once he was able to play enough to level things out we got to see the player he was, which wasn't quite as bad as he appeared on paper in his rookie year but it wasn't a good player, overall.

 

[Phrazbit]

JJ certainly didn't get frozen out but it's because he kept hogging the ball and bringing it up court. He was not playing the role of a big.

The summer league is sloppy trash, that we all seem to agree on, but if anyone took me saying it's a guards league to be an excuse for terrible play by Bender, you misunderstood me.

It's filled with bad players at all positions, but it's the guards who get to... uhh... "shine", because theyve got the ball in their hands and most of them have no clue how to create for others so they force their own garbage.

I'd love to see the usage rate disparity. Even on our team I bet Harrison's usage rate was insane.

 

[Mainstreet]

Dragan's shooting percentages increased in year 2 so that's something. Let's see what happens this season. Of course he may get less minutes with Ariza playing power forward.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If a player averaged 2 points in 10 minutes and you start giving him 20 minutes a game and he's scoring 4 points a game, did he improve? Not really. The increase is in direct relation to the increase in playing time. For him to improve he'd need to produce more than he did previously, scoring like 6 points in 20 minutes of playing time would be an improvement because then he's actually showing a true increase compared to his previous play. His per minute production stayed the same before, whether he was playing 10 minutes or 20 minutes, he was still only good for 1 point every 5 minutes. Get what I'm saying?

I do. But I think historically point per minute typically decreases with increased playing time. And an increase in percentage with an increase in minutes are typically adversely correlated.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Chriss and Bender are both on 5 years deals right? Third year coming up.

 

[Hoop Head]

Chriss and Bender are both on 5 years deals right? Third year coming up.

4 year deals, there are team options that need to be picked up for their 4th seasons before this season starts. They may actually have until the end of October to pick up the 4th year options. After season 4 they're restricted free agents if the Suns offer them qualifying offers, they may not plan on doing so like how they didn't offer one to Elfrid Payton this year. A lot of restricted free agents weren't offered qualifying offers this summer so it's hard to predict if they'll get those or not, if they do and don't sign a larger offer sheet and elect to play on that 1 year qualifying offer then the Suns would have them for their 5th seasons before they become unrestricted free agents.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Suns could get both cheep if they play poorly this year. Might want to give them fewest min. possible. If I'm the GM that's my thinking .

 

[Mainstreet]

Suns could get both cheep if they play poorly this year. Might want to give them fewest min. possible. If I'm the GM that's my thinking .

The thing is, why would the Suns want to keep them if they play poorly, cheap or not.

 

[Phrazbit]

Suns could get both cheep if they play poorly this year. Might want to give them fewest min. possible. If I'm the GM that's my thinking .

The thing is, why would the Suns want to keep them if they play poorly, cheap or not.

Yeah... whatever their odds are of becoming good players, they're significantly smaller if we're going to waste a season sabotaging them in some scheme to then extend them on the cheap.

 

[Ronin]

Both Jackson and Bender on a list you don't want to be on.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...best-worst-most-surprising-rookies-5-5-debate

 

[Ronin]

Bender and Jackson make sc top ten.

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[Hoop Head]

For all of the criticism, Ayton still made 2nd Team All Summer League. Not a huge honor but I'd expect no less from someone taken #1 overall.

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[sunsfan88]

For all of the criticism, Ayton still made 2nd Team All Summer League. Not a huge honor but I'd expect no less from someone taken #1 overall.

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Good to see Trae Young make it as well despite some of his early struggles.

I hope to see him succeed, I’ve become a fan.

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[Hoop Head]

I like Trae Young as a person, so I'm rooting for him. He's also a fun player to watch as well. I think Atlanta was a bad place for him to land. He appears to be more of a passing PG than we've seen in his limited time at Oklahoma. He didn't really have the option to be more of a passing PG if they wanted to win and he'll need to score a lot in Atlanta also. If he landed in Orlando he'd have more players to set up, which is why I wanted to see him go there if he didn't become a Sun somehow.