Summer trades?

[Hoop Head]

Great teams have great players.


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OKC has some great players but that doesn't make them a great team. Their record improved by 1 game compared to last year and they added a top 10 player to their roster. I do think adding Melo was an issue because he doesn't seem ready to take on a reduced role on the offensive end but that's part of the issue with constructing a roster, finding a way to build a team that works around your stars. Westbrook is a great player but there are only a certain number of players who can play alongside him that actually benefit the team. I don't think OKC has figured out what sort of stars to surround him with and I don't think Booker and Jackson would compliment him that well if the Suns acquired him, assuming the Suns didn't need to part with one of them to bring Westbrook in anyways.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

In other TJ Warren tweet speculation news:

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In other TJ Warren tweet speculation news:

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WHAT

THE

F???

 

[Hoop Head]

That TJ tweet isn't very encouraging. I've been against the idea of trading him just to trade him and am reluctant to deal him unless we get real results from him. Using him to trade up with our 2nd pick isn't the right way to use TJ, not on his contract. He has value and few of the Suns do but TJ should only be dealt if he brings in a vet who plays a position of need. Even then, that player would need to be under contract for at least 2 years or longer.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That TJ tweet isn't very encouraging. I've been against the idea of trading him just to trade him and am reluctant to deal him unless we get real results from him. Using him to trade up with our 2nd pick isn't the right way to use TJ, not on his contract. He has value and few of the Suns do but TJ should only be dealt if he brings in a vet who plays a position of need. Even then, that player would need to be under contract for at least 2 years or longer.

if you need to use TJ to move up to the number 1 pick, I'd be incredulous if we balked at that. We've already got his replacement, he doesn't shoot the three, or play defense... or rebound. Moving him plus our pick to get a generational talent should be done in a heartbeat if need be.

 

[Hoop Head]

if you need to use TJ to move up to the number 1 pick, I'd be incredulous if we balked at that. We've already got his replacement, he doesn't shoot the three, or play defense... or rebound. Moving him plus our pick to get a generational talent should be done in a heartbeat if need be.

TJ to move from 3 or 4 to 1 is something that needs to be considered but I was referring to trying to move up with the Heat pick. How high could TJ move that pick if we tried getting a 2nd lottery pick? I don't think we'd get high enough to take Young, Porter, or Bamba so it's not worth doing. Moving from 16 to 10 isn't that big of a leap in talent that will be on the board. You might be able to get Sexton instead of Shai. I'd rather have Shai at #16 and keep TJ.

 

[Cheesebeef]

TJ to move from 3 or 4 to 1 is something that needs to be considered but I was referring to trying to move up with the Heat pick. How high could TJ move that pick if we tried getting a 2nd lottery pick? I don't think we'd get high enough to take Young, Porter, or Bamba so it's not worth doing. Moving from 16 to 10 isn't that big of a leap in talent that will be on the board. You might be able to get Sexton instead of Shai. I'd rather have Shai at #16 and keep TJ.

ah.

If the guy they really want is at 10(and a PG) and they can do it, I'd do that also.

TJ ain't part of the long-term future for this team, IMO. However they can use him to get better or get the exact guy they want in this draft is a-okay by me.

 

[Phrazbit]

Then we continued on that trend by not dealing Bledsoe last year. Again, cashing out on the cheap like you've been saying. IT was another bad "sell" deal.

I think though we've accumulated some decent assets finally. Plus I don't think there will be any "Lens" in the top four this time around. If we don't get a star player we still should be able to score a solid starter...not a washup.

The IT thing was it's own bizarre situation in and of itself. From what I can tell, the Thomas trade was going down because of Dragic being a lil turd, then Dragic upped his turd level in the 11th hour and said "screw my role, I want to play in big lights"; while I think McD did an amazing job of salvaging Dragic's value given the level of selfish turd he displayed at the last minute... he probably should have backed out of the Thomas deal given that it was originally negotiated in an effort to appease Dragic.

When we got IT he had little value, when we shipped IT many thought it was stunning to get what we did... basically paying 3 mil (half of one season of IT's contract at the time) for a 1st round pick, then he blew it up with Boston and we looked stupid... then he fell apart with the Cavs and they literally gave him away just to be rid of him. So... no matter how you approach IT... it's complicated. So complicated that the mere two letters of "IT" back to back screwed up @cheesebeef's auto correct to the point where he could no longer merely utter the word "it" without it trying to turn it into a pronoun.

McD getting what he could for Dragic was a miracle... but dumping IT in light of Dragic being a turbo-turd. Hard to justify.

IMO, McD is a good evaluator of value and talent, and a bad evaluator of how to build a functional roster and dealing with personalities.

But yeah, we should have traded Bledsoe at the all-star break in 2017 (when we decided to go tank mode) or during the draft of that summer... when we were shopping him anyway and obviously not contending the next year. To be stunned by his "I can't take being trash anymore" epiphany 3 games into the season shows that the communication between the front office and the players is lacking.

 

[Hoop Head]

McD getting what he could for Dragic was a miracle... but dumping IT in light of Dragic being a turbo-turd. Hard to justify.

IMO, McD is a good evaluator of value and talent, and a bad evaluator of how to build a functional roster and dealing with personalities.

But yeah, we should have traded Bledsoe at the all-star break in 2017 (when we decided to go tank mode) or during the draft of that summer... when we were shopping him anyway and obviously not contending the next year. To be stunned by his "I can't take being trash anymore" epiphany 3 games into the season shows that the communication between the front office and the players is lacking.

Love that "turbo turd" line about Dragic. I agree with your takes on everything that went down with IT and Dragic. I didn't like the IT trade at the time because I liked IT's attitude. He was cocky but in a good way, or a way that can help a team like he did in Boston. Had we kept IT we probably wouldn't have brought in Knight also. Hindsight is 20/20 though and many were happy to see IT leave, even though Dragic was already out the door on his own. Some fans held it against IT that Dragic asked out. If Dragic were more assertive with our front office and coaching staff about wanting to be "The Guy" like he wanted in a trade then he wouldn't have been relegated to being the 3rd PG on the floor and stuck in the corner. His moping helped seal his fate. IT made the most of it when they were out there together and Bledsoe did as well. Bledsoe was getting paid so he didn't care how well the team did, he didn't need to start turning it on for a few more years when he'd need an extension. IT was out to prove people wrong and that helped motivate him in Boston also. I think he'll have a great year next year wherever he ends up because he seems like he wants to prove to everyone it was the Cavs that were the issue and not him. If he returns to the form he was in Boston then that will make Cleveland and Boston look bad, less Boston than Cleveland but both will kick themselves if he returns to the MVP consideration like he was in Boston alst season.

Perhaps that move gcost us a playoff spot that year, maybe it didn't, and there is no way to know for sure.

In regards to Bledsoe asking out when and how he did, that came out right after Watson was fired and Watson was/is repped by Rich Paul also. I think that was a large part of why Bledsoe asked out an hour after news broke of Watson getting canned. Thankfully we don't need to deal with Paul anymore but you can see how he runs things in Cleveland where he has multiple players repped by him. He uses his players to help negotiate and make demands of teams and the Suns were in a precarious position because our top player was repped by Paul and so was our coach. Thank god that Booker didn't sign on with him, or Jackson for that matter. That guy is a walking nightmare.

 

[Mainstreet]

McD getting what he could for Dragic was a miracle... but dumping IT in light of Dragic being a turbo-turd. Hard to justify.

As I have mentioned in the past, I think the IT trade to the Celtics was already a done deal (verbal commitment) made by McDonough to appease Dragic. Any reputable GM does not back out of a trade once it is agreed upon.

McDonough did make an excellent move acquiring IT in a trade with the Kings for essentially nothing and then flipping him for a first round draft pick.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The IT thing was it's own bizarre situation in and of itself. From what I can tell, the Thomas trade was going down because of Dragic being a lil turd, then Dragic upped his turd level in the 11th hour and said "screw my role, I want to play in big lights"; while I think McD did an amazing job of salvaging Dragic's value given the level of selfish turd he displayed at the last minute... he probably should have backed out of the Thomas deal given that it was originally negotiated in an effort to appease Dragic.

When we got IT he had little value, when we shipped IT many thought it was stunning to get what we did... basically paying 3 mil (half of one season of IT's contract at the time) for a 1st round pick, then he blew it up with Boston and we looked stupid... then he fell apart with the Cavs and they literally gave him away just to be rid of him. So... no matter how you approach IT... it's complicated. So complicated that the mere two letters of "IT" back to back screwed up @cheesebeef's auto correct to the point where he could no longer merely utter the word "it" without it trying to turn it into a pronoun.

McD getting what he could for Dragic was a miracle... but dumping IT in light of Dragic being a turbo-turd. Hard to justify.

IMO, McD is a good evaluator of value and talent, and a bad evaluator of how to build a functional roster and dealing with personalities.

But yeah, we should have traded Bledsoe at the all-star break in 2017 (when we decided to go tank mode) or during the draft of that summer... when we were shopping him anyway and obviously not contending the next year. To be stunned by his "I can't take being trash anymore" epiphany 3 games into the season shows that the communication between the front office and the players is lacking.

Can’t believe I STILL can’t figure out how to change that back.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As I have mentioned in the past, I think the IT trade to the Celtics was already a done deal (verbal commitment) made by McDonough to appease Dragic. Any reputable GM does not back out of a trade once it is agreed upon.

McDonough did make an excellent move acquiring IT in a trade with the Kings for essentially nothing and then flipping him for a first round draft pick.

Other than GS’s reputable GM who backed outta the Amare-for-Steph swap?

 

[Phrazbit]

As I have mentioned in the past, I think the IT trade to the Celtics was already a done deal (verbal commitment) made by McDonough to appease Dragic. Any reputable GM does not back out of a trade once it is agreed upon.

McDonough did make an excellent move acquiring IT in a trade with the Kings for essentially nothing and then flipping him for a first round draft pick.

I agree that those were the circumstances, however, when Dragic changed his stance in the 11th hour the circumstances changed. I don't think the rival GMs or public perception would have given any credence to the Celtics had they whined about it.

As Ouchie brought up, we received no pity when the Warriors did us far dirtier.

 

[Mainstreet]

Other than GS’s reputable GM who backed outta the Amare-for-Steph swap?

It's hard to know all the details on the proposed trade of Amare for Curry.

One part of me wants to think the Warriors backed out of the trade. The other part makes me question if Steve Kerr really locked in the trade. It could be the stumbling of a rookie GM.

It was close.

Here is a nice article about it.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article157558864.html

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree that those were the circumstances, however, when Dragic changed his stance in the 11th hour the circumstances changed. I don't think the rival GMs or public perception would have given any credence to the Celtics had they whined about it.

As Ouchie brought up, we received no pity when the Warriors did us far dirtier.

As McDonough previously worked for the Celtics, I believe he was especially sensitive to the idea of backing out of the IT trade.

Of course it is only theory, but I believe he would be reluctant to do so.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As McDonough previously worked for the Celtics, I believe he was especially sensitive to the idea of backing out of the IT trade.

Of course it is only theory, but I believe he would be reluctant to do so.

So he put his old relationship with the Celtics in front of the Suns' needs?

If that's your theory, he should have been fired on the freaking spot.

The NBA is a cut-throat business. It's kill or be killed and if you're willing to kill your own team for your previous one, you don't belong making decisions.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So he put his old relationship with the Celtics in front of the Suns' needs?

If that's your theory, he should have been fired on the freaking spot.

The NBA is a cut-throat business. It's kill or be killed and if you're willing to kill your own team for your previous one, you don't belong making decisions.

I don't think McD has any qualms about taking it to Danny Ainge as the JJ draft shows. But backing out of trades is bad NBA form and could hurt future negotiations with many teams.

 

[Mainstreet]

So he put his old relationship with the Celtics in front of the Suns' needs?

If that's your theory, he should have been fired on the freaking spot.

The NBA is a cut-throat business. It's kill or be killed and if you're willing to kill your own team for your previous one, you don't belong making decisions.

It was doubly important for McDonough as a rookie GM not to break his word.

Any GM that breaks his word loses credibility in future transactions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It was doubly important for McDonough as a rookie GM not to break his word.

Any GM that breaks his word loses credibility in future transactions.

First... you’re now changing your argument that he didn’t want to hurt his relationship with the Celtics.

Second... McD WASNT a rookie. He was in the middle of his second year.

Third... Tell the above a GM’s “word” to the Warriors GM who kept Stef after we dealt for him. Or any other deals that fall apart at the last second we never even hear about.

Fourth... his JOB is to make the Suns as good as possible. Trades ALWAYS fall through.

Fifth... it’s realky is okay to admit he made a bad deal without twisting yourself up to defend him.

 

[Mainstreet]

First... you’re now changing your argument that he didn’t want to hurt his relationship with the Celtics.

Second... McD WASNT a rookie. He was in the middle of his second year.

Third... Tell the above a GM’s “word” to the Warriors GM who kept Stef after we dealt for him. Or any other deals that fall apart at the last second we never even hear about.

Fourth... his JOB is to make the Suns as good as possible. Trades ALWAYS fall through.

Fifth... it’s realky is okay to admit he made a bad deal without twisting yourself up to defend him.

1. A GM does not want to break his word in a trade agreement whether it be the Celtics or any other team.

I do not see any change in the argument. Why wouldn't McDonough would want to impress his former employer? They are the ones who prepared him for the job. This doesn't change anything about the need for a GM to keep his word unless you wanted McDonough to stab them in the back.

2. McDonough was a new GM... a rookie so to speak. Nitpick if you want.

3. If the Warriors broke their word... that's on them. It's not a way to conduct business.

4. Trades do fall through but if they are agreed upon in principle, a GM should keep his word.

5. I thought MCDonough stole IT from the Kings in a trade. So now I'm supposed to criticize McDonough for flipping him for a first round pick a few months later.

The NBA may be a tough business but respect goes a long way. Ask Jerry Colangelo.

 

[Cheesebeef]

1. A GM does not want to break his word in a trade agreement whether it be the Celtics or any other team.

I do not see any change in the argument. Why wouldn't McDonough would want to impress his former employer?

Because he’d be hurting his CURRENT employer in the process. I can’t believe this is that hard to understand.

They are the ones who prepared him for the job. This doesn't change anything about the need for a GM to keep his word unless you wanted McDonough to stab them in the back.

Every GM knows no deal is done until a DEAL IS DONE. And again, I don't call backing out of a trade because CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGED stabbing another team in the back. I call it PROTECTING YOUR OWN.

2. McDonough was a new GM... a rookie so to speak. Nitpick if you want.

No. You're making it out to be like he's some wet behind the ears kid. He already had a full year under his belt, a year mind you where he actually got kudos for the Suns surprise season.

And again, the SUNS WERE HIS PRIORITY.

3. If the Warriors broke their word... that's on them. It's not a way to conduct business.

Yeah... they've REALLY suffered from that business... keeping Stef and winning 2 titles and going to the Finals 3 straight years.

4. Trades do fall through but if they are agreed upon in principle, a GM should keep his word.

This feels very pollyana-ish. The NBA and ALL big business is a cut-throat game. It's kill or be killed. You want to have a GM who plays nice, well, guess what... nice guys finish last... and as we've seen, that's EXACTLY where McD has led us throughout his reign.

5. I thought MCDonough stole IT from the Kings in a trade. So now I'm supposed to criticize McDonough for flipping him for a first round pick a few months later.

The NBA may be a tough business but respect goes a long way. Ask Jerry Colangelo.[/QUOTE]

You mean... the Jerry Colangelo who I LOVED because he did everything in his power to try and win us a title, even completely completely circumventing NBA Bird Rules in back to back seasons, pissing off the rest of the league so much with his one year wink wink deals, that they banded together to make them illegal?

How about the respect people had for the Spurs who tanked an entire season to get Duncan?

You know what gets respect? RESULTS.

And the results for McD here have been horrific in every way shape or form. Three different head coaches... trashing players in public... repeatedly getting turned down by big name FA and now, seemingly can't GIVE AWAY the Coaching position this year.

If you think ANYONE in the NBA respects McD, I've got beach front property to sell you in Yuma.

 

[Mainstreet]

@cheesebeef

You seem to be operating under a different set of rules... the end justifies the means. This seems to be the difference in our perspective.

I believe a GM can be tough and not morally corrupt at the same time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

@cheesebeef

You seem to be operating under a different set of rules... the end justifies the means. This seems to be the difference in our perspective.

I believe a GM can be tough and not morally corrupt at the same time.

“Morally corrupt”? So, since I’m “operating under a certain set of rules” does that makes me Morally Corrupt? And careful not to fall off your high horse because under your rules, Colangelo, who was respected by EVERYONE was morally corrupt when he screwed the rest of the league by circumventing the salary cap and colluding with FA on under the table deals that pissed the league and other owners off so much they literally changed the rule.

Second... Give me a break. A trade’s not a trade until its finalized and given to the league for approval. If circumstances change before that there’s nothing morally corrupt about changing with the circumstances. It’s called rolling with the punches and happens in all walks of business and life.

A GM should do what’s best for his team. If he’s not, he’s not doing his job.

 

[SirStefan32]

A GM should do what’s best for his team. If he’s not, he’s not doing his job.

The best thing to do for your team is to develop good relationships with GMs from other organizations and build credibility around the league or the company, depending on the industry.

 

[Mainstreet]

“Morally corrupt”? So, since I’m “operating under a certain set of rules” does that makes me Morally Corrupt? And careful not to fall off your high horse because under your rules, Colangelo, who was respected by EVERYONE was morally corrupt when he screwed the rest of the league by circumventing the salary cap and colluding with FA on under the table deals that pissed the league and other owners off so much they literally changed the rule.

Second... Give me a break. A trade’s not a trade until its finalized and given to the league for approval. If circumstances change before that there’s nothing morally corrupt about changing with the circumstances. It’s called rolling with the punches and happens in all walks of business and life.

A GM should do what’s best for his team. If he’s not, he’s not doing his job.

All you do is distort the argument and then make an argument against your distortion.

Trades are made all the time while awaiting league office approval. What you seem to discard is that GMs need credibility to do their job.