Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[CardNots]

The Bucks were not small. 7' Giannis, 7' Brook Lopez, and 7' Bobby Portis aren't the make up of a small ball team. 6'4" Jrue Holiday at PG, and 6'7" or 6'8" Khris Middleton out there usually isn't small. PJ Tucker's presence at SF doesn't make them small as a whole.

They had two great shooters, a good coach and a bull in the China store we didn’t have a bull just a pussycat. Height is somewhat overrated.

 

[Chaplin]

The Bucks were not small. 7' Giannis, 7' Brook Lopez, and 7' Bobby Portis aren't the make up of a small ball team. 6'4" Jrue Holiday at PG, and 6'7" or 6'8" Khris Middleton out there usually isn't small. PJ Tucker's presence at SF doesn't make them small as a whole.

This is about height, and Book is nearly the same height as Middleton -- Portis didn't start, which is what this whole discussion is about. Saying Tucker's presence at Small Forward being smaller than Book (who you all insist is ONLY a shooting guard) doesn't make them small but Jones at PG for us does doesn't make any sense. Tucker was undersized for a SF and Jones is 6'1". Book and Beal are comparable height wise to Middleton and Jrue -- and Nurk/KD are obviously comparable to Brook/Giannis.

Suns fans giving passes to other teams is typical of this fan base, especially since we are always hunting for ways to negatively view this team.

 

[leclerc]

What do you mean it doesn't mean much? You said small ball isn't successful. The Bucks won the whole thing.

I wouldn't call that team small ball.

Jrue
Kris
PJ Tucker was it?
Giannis
Brook Lopez

They had a true center in Lopez and Giannis is huge. PJ is a pretty typical SF I think. That's just my view.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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It is interesting how they really were focused on seemingly those two players. Hope their evaluation skills match their ability to maneuver the late draft.

 

[Ronin]

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[ASUCHRIS]

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Oddly, we don't need him to be MVP...we need Book/Beal to be 3 and D wings who sometimes create. Durant mostly the same too. Less hero ball, more team focused play.

 

[somethingshesaid]

The Milwaukee Bucks discussion reminds me of something I have wondered regarding Giannis Antetokuonmpo. It came to my attention that he is known for illegally ramming other players aside with his shoulder, which the referees ignore. If this is the case, then to what extent does he owe his championship success to simple cheating (permitted by the NBA)?

(One may ask: didn't I see that on TV at the time? No--my family no longer had cable; and of course the Suns didn't yet have an owner offering broadcast TV access.)

 

[Chaplin]

The Milwaukee Bucks discussion reminds me of something I have wondered regarding Giannis Antetokuonmpo. It came to my attention that he is known for illegally ramming other players aside with his shoulder, which the referees ignore. If this is the case, then to what extent does he owe his championship success to simple cheating (permitted by the NBA)?

(One may ask: didn't I see that on TV at the tiem? No--my family no longer had cable; and of course the Suns didn't yet have an owner offering broadcast TV access.)

That is probably the best example of superstar bias you can find as far as officiating goes. Kobe's clearouts, Karl Malone's elbows and Lebron's steps are 3 others.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Bucks were not small. 7' Giannis, 7' Brook Lopez, and 7' Bobby Portis aren't the make up of a small ball team. 6'4" Jrue Holiday at PG, and 6'7" or 6'8" Khris Middleton out there usually isn't small. PJ Tucker's presence at SF doesn't make them small as a whole.

Yeah, the Bucks had their way with the Suns after Saric went down to injury.

The Suns needed an athletic FC like Bobby Portis in their Finals run, much like they need a similar player this season.

Monty didn't seem to have confidence in Frank Kaminsky coming off the bench.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Milwaukee Bucks discussion reminds me of something I have wondered regarding Giannis Antetokuonmpo. It came to my attention that he is known for illegally ramming other players aside with his shoulder, which the referees ignore. If this is the case, then to what extent does he owe his championship success to simple cheating (permitted by the NBA)?

(One may ask: didn't I see that on TV at the time? No--my family no longer had cable; and of course the Suns didn't yet have an owner offering broadcast TV access.)

Calling it “cheating” isn’t really fair. He’s not breaking rules, he’s pushing the officials to make calls. Oh, and he’s also an absolutely fantastic basketball player.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Calling it “cheating” isn’t really fair. He’s not breaking rules, he’s pushing the officials to make calls. Oh, and he’s also an absolutely fantastic basketball player.

Then I must be misunderstanding what he does. I thought he was blatantly committing offensive fouls.

 

[Chaplin]

Calling it “cheating” isn’t really fair. He’s not breaking rules, he’s pushing the officials to make calls. Oh, and he’s also an absolutely fantastic basketball player.

Can't really blame him, players are constantly testing how refs are calling games, and if they aren't making the calls, and it gives them an advantage, they will continue to use it. As far as they're concerned, it's NOT illegal if the refs don't call it.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Milwaukee Bucks discussion reminds me of something I have wondered regarding Giannis Antetokuonmpo. It came to my attention that he is known for illegally ramming other players aside with his shoulder, which the referees ignore. If this is the case, then to what extent does he owe his championship success to simple cheating (permitted by the NBA)?

(One may ask: didn't I see that on TV at the time? No--my family no longer had cable; and of course the Suns didn't yet have an owner offering broadcast TV access.)

Luka gets in his fair share of ramming as well.

 

[95pro]

Calling it “cheating” isn’t really fair. He’s not breaking rules, he’s pushing the officials to make calls. Oh, and he’s also an absolutely fantastic basketball player.

It is just my belief that there is some hidden directive from the league to allow players to become stars in the league.

 

[Suns_fan69]

That is probably the best example of superstar bias you can find as far as officiating goes. Kobe's clearouts, Karl Malone's elbows and Lebron's steps are 3 others.

I'd add Draymond Green's illegal screens; less obvious as the others but just as impactful.

 

[Mainstreet]

I do, absolutely, think that they're a better constructed team than last season. More well rounded and balanced, more proven depth.

The injury concerns are still there, given the history of a lot of these guys, we were actually rather fortunate last season, and I have serious concerns about the front court.But, if the important parts can avoid serious injury, I think this team should exceed last year's result.

For them to make the leap into real contention, coach Bud is going to have to have a real thumb on this roster and milk everything he can out of the unproven guys.

We agree, talent wise, the Suns are a better team than last season. The lack of proven depth in the front court is my primary concern. When opponents want a basket, they will attack the interior. And not factoring in injuries and foul trouble, is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Hoop Head]

This is about height, and Book is nearly the same height as Middleton -- Portis didn't start, which is what this whole discussion is about. Saying Tucker's presence at Small Forward being smaller than Book (who you all insist is ONLY a shooting guard) doesn't make them small but Jones at PG for us does doesn't make any sense. Tucker was undersized for a SF and Jones is 6'1". Book and Beal are comparable height wise to Middleton and Jrue -- and Nurk/KD are obviously comparable to Brook/Giannis.

Suns fans giving passes to other teams is typical of this fan base, especially since we are always hunting for ways to negatively view this team.

Its funny how you always push the homer narrative. Booker is a SG. We spent years debating if he could be a PG and now we're just pushing him to SF and you claim he'll be fine. He's rarely played SF. Frankly I'm tired of seeing Booker pushed out position because our GM's can't build a team with any conventional thinking. What good does it do us to have the #1 SG in the league when he never plays there? But hey, he's an inch or two shorter than Middleton, and also weighs less and has about 4" less reach. He'll be fine.

 

[Chaplin]

Interesting comparison of average heights of NBA Teams:

NBA teams data comparison

Current NBA teams data comparison: Height, weight, experience and salaries differences for full roster, rotation players and starting units.

en.hispanosnba.com

Suns currently are the 20th team in size. The smallest teams?

1) Philadelphia 76ers
2) Cleveland Cavaliers
3) Golden State Warriors
4) New York Knicks

The tallest team is the Denver Nuggets with an average of 203.2 cm. Suns are at 199.8 cm.

NOTE: This doesn't really support any arguments in this thread, as lineups are purely situational, but still interesting to see that somebody actually compiled these type of stats.

 

[Proximo]

Interesting comparison of average heights of NBA Teams:

NBA teams data comparison

Current NBA teams data comparison: Height, weight, experience and salaries differences for full roster, rotation players and starting units.

en.hispanosnba.com

Suns currently are the 20th team in size. The smallest teams?

1) Philadelphia 76ers
2) Cleveland Cavaliers
3) Golden State Warriors
4) New York Knicks

The tallest team is the Denver Nuggets with an average of 203.2 cm. Suns are at 199.8 cm.

NOTE: This doesn't really support any arguments in this thread, as lineups are purely situational, but still interesting to see that somebody actually compiled these type of stats.

These stats really aren't very accurate.

What matters is the size of the players getting playing time.

Height isn't really super important by itself - what is important about it is your ability to rim protect and rebound. Sometimes smaller players can outplay their size.

I would argue other than maybe Okogie we don't have a good small guy rebounder.

Conversely Bol - our tallest guy is not a good rebounder.

Our rebounding which was one of our biggest issues last year has not been fixed, if anything it is likely to get worse with our new small PG's taking playing time from bigger players.

 

[CardNots]

These stats really aren't very accurate.

What matters is the size of the players getting playing time.

Height isn't really super important by itself - what is important about it is your ability to rim protect and rebound. Sometimes smaller players can outplay their size.

I would argue other than maybe Okogie we don't have a good small guy rebounder.

Conversely Bol - our tallest guy is not a good rebounder.

Our rebounding which was one of our biggest issues last year has not been fixed, if anything it is likely to get worse with our new small PG's taking playing time from bigger players.

Dennis Rodman and Charles Barkley are great examples height doesn’t always equate to rebounding ability.

 

[leclerc]

Well if we look up the top 10 rebounders for the last 20 seasons I guess the average height is taller than 6-6, 6-8, so these guys don't come around that often.

 

[leclerc]

I did a quick check and it looks like the height is usually 6-10 and up. Only Julius Randle and Bam Adebayo are below dating back to 2015.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Dennis Rodman and Charles Barkley are great examples height doesn’t always equate to rebounding ability.

I think Barkley (and probably also Rodman) opined that you get rrebounds by wanting them.

That explains something I marveled at in the 2010 playoffs: Rajon Rondo's tremendous rebounding in whatever Celtics game I watched. I said to myself "How in h*** does a six-foot point guard rebound like that?!"

It also makes me feel firm in my conviction that Amare Stoudemire had no excuse for not being a good rebounder.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oddly, we don't need him to be MVP...we need Book/Beal to be 3 and D wings who sometimes create. Durant mostly the same too. Less hero ball, more team focused play.

Book proved in the Olympics what kind of all-around player he can be when he is not called upon to carry the team offensively. Would this team be better served by Book filling that role and having Beale take more of a scoring role?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Its funny how you always push the homer narrative. Booker is a SG. We spent years debating if he could be a PG and now we're just pushing him to SF and you claim he'll be fine. He's rarely played SF. Frankly I'm tired of seeing Booker pushed out position because our GM's can't build a team with any conventional thinking. What good does it do us to have the #1 SG in the league when he never plays there? But hey, he's an inch or two shorter than Middleton, and also weighs less and has about 4" less reach. He'll be fine.

I don't think its a homer narrative. My understanding is that a wing player is the 2-3 position in the modern NBA, and they are often interchangeable. These are usually players in the 6-4 to 6-9 height range that can run the floor, play on the wing, score, and in a ideal world they are also good defenders.

This is not about Booker, its about the nature of the position.