Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[Raindog]

Either go for it, or rebuild the team. James Jones and Mat Ishbia weren't shy about this when they made the trade for Durant.

Now all of a sudden they realize the CBA is real?

Arguably, Ishbia could be somewhat excused for being clueless about it. James Jones on the other hand...

 

[Superbone]

Arguably, Ishbia could be somewhat excused for being clueless about it. James Jones on the other hand...

However, Ishbia's decisions trump Jones'. Ultimately, they go in the direction Ishbia prefers.

 

[Mainstreet]

However, Ishbia's decisions trump Jones'. Ultimately, they go in the direction Ishbia prefers.

It's hard to separate the two, though.


BY Kellan Olson, Arizona Sports, May 1 2024, Suns reporter, ArizonaSports.com editor:

“I feel really great about all the things we’ve done in 15 months. The outcome of this year’s playoff series and last year’s playoff series, let’s take those two things out of there, besides that I feel like we’ve made a lot of amazing decisions,” Ishbia said, going on to clarify those are team decisions and not just his before rattling off some of Phoenix’s correctly labeled decisions to upgrade the franchise off the court.

“You look back at some of the trades that James and all of us were part of. We do those things 100 out of 100 times. Not 99 out of 100, 100 out of 100 and we’d still do them again and I think the other 29 GMs would all do the same exact thing.”

Suns remain confident, paint picture beyond bleak end to season

The Phoenix Suns officially concluded the 2023-24 season with a strange end-of-season availability for Mat Ishbia and James Jones.

arizonasports.com

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not going to quibble over position label. The Suns needed a 4/5 and didn't address the position at the trade deadline.

A 4/5 could work but there are 5's that can't play 4's. I think we have our center. Now we need either a 4 or 4/5.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Perhaps I could have said it more clearly, but I disliked the idea of giving up a first round pick to move Nurkic' contract.

Even more so since the Suns didn't address the elephant in the room, the lack of quality rotation depth at the 4/5 position.

This was a salary dump, even though it may pay dividends next season in regard to getting below the 2nd tax apron.

The idea of the Suns standing pat this season with a losing hand doesn't appeal to me.

Either go for it, or rebuild the team. James Jones and Mat Ishbia weren't shy about this when they made the trade for Durant.

Now all of a sudden they realize the CBA is real?

The big difference between us on this subject is you apparently believe there was a fix for this mess, I don't.

We need to rebuild fairly soon, I really believe that's unavoidable. But I'm not sure of the timing or the pace of that rebuild, the last thing we want to do is look like panicked sellers. I think the important thing for us to do is to make forward looking moves with each trade, draft selection and FA signing. And when the market is there, sell off our veterans.

The worst thing we can do, besides sabotaging our own players, is to give up future assets to add meaningless wins. I'm so thrilled that we didn't do that at this deadline. I was convinced we were going to bring in someone like Jonas at the cost of a pick and Allen. It would have marginally improved us in the short run but would not have been forward looking. That we may have finally showed some restaint gives me hope.

 

[clyde2tw]

I believe the fix is not in the roster change so much so as change in game philosophy. When we share the ball, our offense flows, when we resort to ISOs, our offense is easily figured out by good def. teams. Bad offense, lots of TOs, leads bad defense due to transitions. We have enough star power, def. more so than many teams now and in history (did Pacers have another star next to Reggie Miller?). If we start empowering players Beal, Allen, Jones more and stay away from ISOs as much as possible, there is a chance to succeed even with this roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I believe the fix is not in the roster change so much so as change in game philosophy. When we share the ball, our offense flows, when we resort to ISOs, our offense is easily figured out by good def. teams. Bad offense, lots of TOs, leads bad defense due to transitions. We have enough star power, def. more so than many teams now and in history (did Pacers have another star next to Reggie Miller?). If we start empowering players Beal, Allen, Jones more and stay away from ISOs as much as possible, there is a chance to succeed even with this roster.

I'm not sure whether I'd agree or challenge what you're saying here. I guess, I would first have to ask what you mean by "succeed?

 

[Mainstreet]

The big difference between us on this subject is you apparently believe there was a fix for this mess, I don't.

We need to rebuild fairly soon, I really believe that's unavoidable. But I'm not sure of the timing or the pace of that rebuild, the last thing we want to do is look like panicked sellers. I think the important thing for us to do is to make forward looking moves with each trade, draft selection and FA signing. And when the market is there, sell off our veterans.

The worst thing we can do, besides sabotaging our own players, is to give up future assets to add meaningless wins. I'm so thrilled that we didn't do that at this deadline. I was convinced we were going to bring in someone like Jonas at the cost of a pick and Allen. It would have marginally improved us in the short run but would not have been forward looking. That we may have finally showed some restaint gives me hope.

There is no guaranteed fix for this mess. The Suns have traded many of their most valuable draft assets, so it's choosing the best way forward without them.

The Suns actually did give up a first round pick to trade Nurkic so that is one less future first round pick. IMO, if a team is going to trade a first round pick, trade it for a position of need or not at all.

There were a number of centers the Suns could have added for minimal or no assets except money, but they decided to ignore the problem. At least they could have made the product more palatable on the floor this season. Losing does not breed confidence and is even more likely to make the Suns look like panicked sellers this summer unless they can miraculously right the ship.

At this point, the Suns do not really have much choice but to rebuild part or all of the team, but I do not have a lot of confidence the leadership will make the right decisions.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There is no guaranteed fix for this mess. The Suns have traded many of their most valuable draft assets, so it's choosing the best way forward without them.

The Suns actually did give up a first round pick to trade Nurkic so that is one less future first round pick. IMO, if a team is going to trade a first round pick, trade it for a position of need or not at all.

There were a number of centers the Suns could have added for minimal or no assets except money, but they decided to ignore the problem. At least they could have made the product more palatable on the floor this season. Losing does not breed confidence and is even more likely to make the Suns look like panicked sellers this summer unless they can miraculously right the ship.

At this point, the Suns do not really have much choice but to rebuild part or all of the team, but I do not have a lot of confidence the leadership will make the right decisions.

Yes they could have made the product more palatable on the floor this season. I'm so thankful they didn't. When we trade Allen I want future value for him, not an extra couple of wins. When we trade Booker, I don't want a 30 year old star, I want future value. And so on.

 

[clyde2tw]

I'm not sure whether I'd agree or challenge what you're saying here. I guess, I would first have to ask what you mean by "succeed?

Well, reaching 2nd round of playoffs?

 

[Mainstreet]

Yes they could have made the product more palatable on the floor this season. I'm so thankful they didn't. When we trade Allen I want future value for him, not an extra couple of wins. When we trade Booker, I don't want a 30 year old star, I want future value. And so on.

You seem locked onto trading, Allen. I don't think we are on the same page.

If the Suns do rebuild, they need to do it the right way, for sure.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, reaching 2nd round of playoffs?

Yeah, I could see that being within reach if we could get Durant to play within a team concept. But for me, I want to see this team building towards a championship and I don't see how that can happen given our questionable depth, our future pick deficit and the second apron restrictions. So to me, anything other than tearing it down and restocking the roster and the pick cabinet, is failure.

 

[clyde2tw]

Yeah, I could see that being within reach if we could get Durant to play within a team concept. But for me, I want to see this team building towards a championship and I don't see how that can happen given our questionable depth, our future pick deficit and the second apron restrictions. So to me, anything other than tearing it down and restocking the roster and the pick cabinet, is failure.

It's not mutually exclusive. If we perform better with this group then our players could also gain trade value, from Allen, RO to Beal

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, I could see that being within reach if we could get Durant to play within a team concept. But for me, I want to see this team building towards a championship and I don't see how that can happen given our questionable depth, our future pick deficit and the second apron restrictions. So to me, anything other than tearing it down and restocking the roster and the pick cabinet, is failure.

I'm not disagreeing, but if the Suns rebuild, it's kind of like get a number and stand in line.

So many young, talented teams are ahead of us. And they own their own draft picks, plus many others they have accumulated.

I'm hoping for a good summer where the Suns can improve their team, maybe keep Booker, and add young players and draft picks.

However, I am concerned the Suns have products reaching their expiration date with depreciating value.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's not mutually exclusive. If we perform better with this group then our players could also gain trade value, from Allen, RO to Beal

True and I want this group to play as well as possible, for trade value but also just for viewing enjoyment. I just wouldn't consider it a "success". And I'd be very disappointed if slightly better play the next few months led to our front office trading away younger players and/or picks to try and build on that improvement.

 

[Hoop Head]

I agree with @Mainstreet , Nurk's contract wasn't toxic or a real negative for the Suns since they're well over the 2nd apron. Trading him didn't get us below that line and it doesn't get there in the off-season either. We could have held onto him and dealt him as an expiring in the off-season since the Suns aren't winning this year and did nothing to improve their odds. Arguably they lowered their odds by trading away Nurkic for more wings when we need bigs. If Nurkic became a negative in the locker room then finding out why should have been step one and rectifying that should have been step 2. Instead he's sat with no communication, he feuds with the coach, and then he's labeled as a cancer. You can't scapegoat a player and expect them to roll with it like it never happened.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True and I want this group to play as well as possible, for trade value but also just for viewing enjoyment. I just wouldn't consider it a "success". And I'd be very disappointed if slightly better play the next few months led to our front office trading away younger players and/or picks to try and build on that improvement.

After already trying to trade KD, when we don’t make the playoffs this year, I’m pretty sure they’re going the blow up route. Maybe not with KD and Booker, but KD ain’t gonna want to keep playing on a loser.

 

[AzStevenCal]

After already trying to trade KD, when we don’t make the playoffs this year, I’m pretty sure they’re going the blow up route. Maybe not with KD and Booker, but KD ain’t gonna want to keep playing on a loser.

I think so too, at least to the extent they trade KD. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they may still try to rebuild on the fly around Devin though and that solves little.

 

[Covert Rain]

After already trying to trade KD, when we don’t make the playoffs this year, I’m pretty sure they’re going the blow up route. Maybe not with KD and Booker, but KD ain’t gonna want to keep playing on a loser.

KD is gone in the offseason for sure. They are going to try and convince Beal as well after a KD trade.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think so too, at least to the extent they trade KD. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they may still try to rebuild on the fly around Devin though and that solves little.

agreed.

 

[Carolinacacti]

KD is gone in the offseason for sure. They are going to try and convince Beal as well after a KD trade.

Book too

 

[Proximo]

I believe the fix is not in the roster change so much so as change in game philosophy. When we share the ball, our offense flows, when we resort to ISOs, our offense is easily figured out by good def. teams. Bad offense, lots of TOs, leads bad defense due to transitions. We have enough star power, def. more so than many teams now and in history (did Pacers have another star next to Reggie Miller?). If we start empowering players Beal, Allen, Jones more and stay away from ISOs as much as possible, there is a chance to succeed even with this roster.

I believe you are partially correct - but what is the reason for all the ISO's? It's KD.

I really think his shot making masks how much he bogs down our offense.

 

[Proximo]

Book too

No, I don't think they want him to go. If he doesn't ask out I think he stays.

 

[Proximo]

I'm not disagreeing, but if the Suns rebuild, it's kind of like get a number and stand in line.

So many young, talented teams are ahead of us. And they own their own draft picks, plus many others they have accumulated.

I'm hoping for a good summer where the Suns can improve their team, maybe keep Booker, and add young players and draft picks.

However, I am concerned the Suns have products reaching their expiration date with depreciating value.

Yes, the Suns are screwed. Not rebuilding because other teams have more assets to rebuild makes no sense.

At least with draft picks there is a chance you can draft a superstar - it is a small chance but it exists. Trying to just sign old players and stay mediocre has zero chance of upside.

Give me a chance over no chance every time.

 

[Covert Rain]

Ishbia needs to take a long look at the entire organization from the FO to the players.

Book - Bol Bol scored more than Book this last game. Book the other night had multiple really bad turnovers. Book is not the same player for whatever reason. I love Book but he has been the one constant in a team that lacks leadership and the ability to fight through adversity. The Suns can't build around Booker and expect things to be different. I don't care what the KD haters say but he is still playing like one of the best players in the NBA and this is not his fault. He has been the best player on this team.

Coach Bud - Vogel was a disaster and wasn't a good coach but what is coach Bud doing? Maxie was taking minutes from Grayson who has been on fire and Maxey really hurt us during stretches because he can't shoot the 3. He has had Richards on the bench at weird times and even Dunn has taken a backseat at weird time despite bringing a ton of energy. He freaking started Bol Bol!!!! I mean maybe this is Coach Bud getting desperate but it's not good sign if you are getting that desperate.

James Jones - maybe it's not all his fault but he sure has helped choose this roster and it's pieces and they don't fit. The chemistry and mix is simply bad. A team that has KD and Book should at the very least be a regular playoff participant if you surround them with the right players. The bench last year was terrible and this bench isn't much better. At the very least he helped make decisions like to get Beal which has been one of the worst trades in our history and he is unmovable.

This team is cooked and now you are going to be forced to move Durant to recoup assets. They may or may not be able to move Beal. Let's say the team loads up on assets by Trading Durant and maybe Beal. The Suns are going to do one of two things. They are going to parlay those assets to get another #1 here because Book isn't a #1 to make another run or they are going to do another slow build which means we will never see a title with Book.

It just doesn't feal like this team has a vision despite all the weird press conferences with platatitudes.