Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[Covert Rain]

Assist to turnover takes all those stats we've been talking about and lumps them into one convenient number. Kinda like how 3 point percentage is a better measure of shooting than just three pointers made.

No those number COMBINED 3 point % and 3 pointers made tell a more complete picture. Just like when looking at status you have to COMBINE what they tell you for a more complete picture. Most stats sites do not rely on Turnover/Ration alone. Not one of the stat sites puts that value above the rest. Hell even Hollinger doesn't put much stock in any single stats including his own custom ratios. Show me a site that says that's a be all end all stat.


"it's not a perfect measure of playmaking due to factors like ball-handling turnovers and varying assist quality, and should be used with caution"

 

[Phrazbit]

No those number COMBINED 3 point % and 3 pointers made tell a more complete picture. Just like when looking at status you have to COMBINE what they tell you for a more complete picture. Most stats sites do not rely on Turnover/Ration alone. Not one of the stat sites puts that value above the rest. Hell even Hollinger doesn't put much stock in any single stats including his own custom ratios. Show me a site that says that's a be all end all stat.

I'd advise you not to look up what Hollinger's stats have to say about KD's ball handling, especially in comparison to Booker.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'd advise you not to look up what Hollinger's stats have to say about KD's ball handling, especially in comparison to Booker.

"it's not a perfect measure of playmaking due to factors like ball-handling turnovers and varying assist quality, and should be used with caution".

You want to give Book a free pass despite what the stats say go ahead. Be my guest. Comeback here though when by the end of Books career we still don't have a title without a #1 to pull him along.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Yes, I named them both of off Birds first post where he pointed out they accounted for most of the teams turnovers but didn't have the status in front of him. I didn't pit then AGAINST each other, I was pointing how how they both contribute and that he was right (providing supporting stats). Saying they both contribute is not the same thing as saying Player X is responsible but Player Y is not.

P.S. They are both 3rd worst at their respective positions in turnover ratio too.

Which Shooting Guard Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Anthony Edwards has the most turnovers by a shooting guard this season with 217 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

Which Power Forward Has The Worst Turnover Ratio | StatMuse

Jayson Tatum has the most turnovers by a power forward this season with 186 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

The links just list total turnovers per position; that doesn't make it a ratio. I'm not sure what the best denominator would be... Usage rate? Dribbles? Passes?

FWIW, both KD and Book have almost identical usage rates and turnovers. KD 28.5 Usage Rate to 175 TOs, Book 28.8 Usage rate to 176 TOs.

Usage rate definition: An estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor. Usage rate can be calculated with how a possession ends: “field-goal or free-throw attempt, or a turnover.
Doesn't account for passes though, which may be a flaw.

 

[Phrazbit]

"it's not a perfect measure of playmaking due to factors like ball-handling turnovers and varying assist quality, and should be used with caution".

You want to give Book a free pass despite what the stats say go ahead. Be my guest. Comeback here though when by the end of Books career we still don't have a title without a #1 to pull him along.

I'm correcting a laughable false equivalency.

Booker has his faults, but passing isn't one of them unless we expect him to be the best of the best in the category.

Durant also has his faults, and passing is his worst... at least among the measurable faults.

 

[Suns_fan69]

... He is at 176 with 23 games to go.

Phoenix has only 13 games left on the season, don't scare me with 23 more games of this BS.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm correcting a laughable false equivalency.

Booker has his faults, but passing isn't one of them unless we expect him to be the best of the best in the category.

Durant also has his faults, and passing is his worst... at least among the measurable faults.

I am laughing at your moving of the goal post. They both have things they do well. They both have faults. I am just choosing to hold them both accountable which you are acting is like a bad thing for some reason.

 

[Phrazbit]

I am laughing at your moving of the goal post. They both have things they do well. They both have faults. I am just choosing to hold them both accountable which you are acting is like a bad thing.

Huh? When did I move the goal posts?

No those number COMBINED 3 point % and 3 pointers made tell a more complete picture. Just like when looking at status you have to COMBINE what they tell you for a more complete picture. Most stats sites do not rely on Turnover/Ration alone. Not one of the stat sites puts that value above the rest. Hell even Hollinger doesn't put much stock in any single stats including his own custom ratios. Show me a site that says that's a be all end all stat.


"it's not a perfect measure of playmaking due to factors like ball-handling turnovers and varying assist quality, and should be used with caution"

Also, Assist to turnover ratio is a COMBINED stat, just like three point percentage, it paints a more complete picture.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The links just list total turnovers per position; that doesn't make it a ratio. I'm not sure what the best denominator would be... Usage rate? Dribbles? Passes?

FWIW, both KD and Book have almost identical usage rates and turnovers. KD 28.5 Usage Rate to 175 TOs, Book 28.8 Usage rate to 176 TOs.

Usage rate definition: An estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor. Usage rate can be calculated with how a possession ends: “field-goal or free-throw attempt, or a turnover.
Doesn't account for passes though, which may be a flaw.

Maybe you were looking for turnovers per game? KD leads that stat: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/who-has-the-highest-turnovers-per-game-on-phoenix-suns

 

[Covert Rain]

Also, Assist to turnover ratio is a COMBINED stat, just like three point percentage, it paints a more complete picture.

It doesn't. It's just another stat. There are actually about 5 different versions of that stat that calculate it a little different because everyone knows it's not great on it's own. Hollinger has his version. Chaikin. Pomeroy. I could go on. They all think each other's version has flaws and calculate it differently. I read a great debate article on each other's versions. I will have to find it.

At any rate, this back and forth is dumb. You choose to give Book a pass and I don't. That won't change.

 

[Phrazbit]

It doesn't. It's just a stat. There are actually about 5 different versions of that stat that calculate it a little different because everyone knows it's not great on it's own. Hollinger has his version. Chaikin. Pomeroy. I could go on. They all think each other's version has flaws and calculate it differently. I read a great debate article on each other's versions. I will have to find it.

At any rate, this back and forth is dumb. You choose to give Book a pass and I don't. That wont' change.

No... it literally does.

This back and forth is dumb, and it's not about me giving Booker a pass... it's because Durant is objectively horrible at something and you think Booker should be dragged down too.

 

[Hoop Head]

They are all benchmarks. So, none of the other status count because you say so. LOL.

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The only cherry pick though is being done by you because you won't come out and say Durant is a bad ball handler that is turnover prone without qualifying it in some way like you'll hurt his feelings if you don't. Why, only you could tell us. Keep arguing though, it's what you do. You aren't presenting counterpoints, you are just trying to lessen what Durant does poorly by over amplifying what Booker does, which isn't the same thing though given their offensive roles.

 

[Covert Rain]

No... it literally does.

This back and forth is dumb, and it's not about me giving Booker a pass... it's because Durant is objectively horrible at something and you think Booker should be dragged down too.

OK. Whatever makes you feel better about Book man. I don't need to drag Book. He has done that plenty this season all on his own and a bunch of stats prove that. Look, I love Book too. I just don't have rose colored glasses on when it comes to him. Everybody on this team is accountable IMO. To each their own.

 

[Covert Rain]

The one downside of this off season. We are going to get a million versions of this crap. This is like the 5th one I have seen this week. All claiming to be rumors. LOL. No team is going to be thinking about this at this time of the year unless they are completely out of it.

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[swagron]

The one downside of this off season. We are going to get a million versions of this crap. This is like the 5th one I have seen this week. All claiming to be rumors. LOL. No team is going to be thinking about this at this time of the year unless they are completely out of it.

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5 for one lazy Durant. Lol

 

[AzStevenCal]

5 for one lazy Durant. Lol

I don't think KD is lazy but that's just a really bad trade for the Lakers.

 

[Covert Rain]

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The only cherry pick though is being done by you because you won't come out and say Durant is a bad ball handler that is turnover prone without qualifying it in some way like you'll hurt his feelings if you don't. Why, only you could tell us. Keep arguing though, it's what you do. You aren't presenting counterpoints, you are just trying to lessen what Durant does poorly by over amplifying what Booker does, which isn't the same thing though given their offensive roles.

Blah blah blah. Says the guy responding to someone who has him on ignore. Hahahahahaha.

 

[95pro]

I'm correcting a laughable false equivalency.

Booker has his faults, but passing isn't one of them unless we expect him to be the best of the best in the category.

Durant also has his faults, and passing is his worst... at least among the measurable faults.

Even the eye test tells you Durant sucks at passing, and a lot are just crappy, unforced, or both.

 

[95pro]

I don't think KD is lazy but that's just a really bad trade for the Lakers.

It is, and I actually kind of like it.

It takes us somewhat back to what we did have prior to KD;

Rui - Ayton
Reaves - Cam
Knecht - Bridges
Vincent/Vanderbilt - Picks

 

[AzStevenCal]

It is, and I actually kind of like it.

It takes us somewhat back to what we did have prior to KD;

Rui - Ayton
Reaves - Cam
Knecht - Bridges
Vincent/Vanderbilt - Picks

Yeah if we wanted to avoid tearing it down and starting all over we couldn't ask for a better KD haul than that one even if no picks were included.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Yeah if we wanted to avoid tearing it down and starting all over we couldn't ask for a better KD haul than that one even if no picks were included.

gonna have to see how oso follows up his last game and how he finishes the year - sure would be nice if bud gave him some minutes

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah if we wanted to avoid tearing it down and starting all over we couldn't ask for a better KD haul than that one even if no picks were included.

Naturally all of these rumors are unsubstantiated garbage. We are going to see a ton of these until a trade actually occurs.

 

[GatorAZ]

The one downside of this off season. We are going to get a million versions of this crap. This is like the 5th one I have seen this week. All claiming to be rumors. LOL. No team is going to be thinking about this at this time of the year unless they are completely out of it.

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Lakers turn that down pretty fast.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Naturally all of these rumors are unsubstantiated garbage. We are going to see a ton of these until a trade actually occurs.

Of course. And some of them will make sense but still just be fabrications. This one makes no sense for the Lakers IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

gonna have to see how oso follows up his last game and how he finishes the year - sure would be nice if bud gave him some minutes

Yeah, I know he's raw and makes lots of mistakes but it's in our best long term interest to give him court time. And right now, we don't really have any short term interests other than maybe trying to raise the trade value of our veterans.