Suns At Hornets Game Thread

[AfroSuns]

I take full credit for the win. I left when they whittled the lead to within 2 points.

 

[elindholm]

What's with Dragic with the 24 second clock? This guy winds the shot clock down to the end way too much. He looked very indecisive at times. Pass the rock!

He's not a PG.

 

[TJ]

Another great win for the Suns!
David West sure gets a pass on fouls. I saw two fouls he committed assessed to someone else, and three other blatant fouls not whistled at all.

And you crybabies bellyaching about blown leads again...this was the second of a road back to back and the first game went to overtime.

Kinda hard not to complain when this team blows big leads like they are going out of style. This is the team's Achillie's heal. Any Suns fan who watches the games knows to watch out for the big lead to drop at any given moment. It is what it is and I don't think I am a "crybaby" for pointing out the obvious.

I think everyone here agrees that if we did not have this issue, we'd have 3 or 4 more wins.

 

[Sunburn]

Well winning games after blowing big leads is progress. Until recently the Suns were losing those games.

No it isn't. They've won games giving up big leads and hanging on to barely pull it out. We've seen that before. That's not progress. Still the exact same problem. Teams, on occasion (sarcasasm alert), build 20 point leads during a game and actually put the other team away, eventually winning by 20 points, give or take, but the game is comfortably tucked away. Happens all the time. It's called a blowout. Once a team is up by 20, the game path is generally thought to be on this road. Not this Suns team. It's no secret around the league. You keep playing against the Suns and you can, and will, come back big against this team. Never have I seen before a basketball team get up then give back as many huge leads so consistently and predictably. It must be unprecedented (Would like to see stats on this if anybody has them). I admit it, it's really nice to see them winning a couple again. I dearly wish I believed they've turned some type of proverbial corner, but alas, I cannot allow myself to drink the kool-aid and dismiss the certainty that the chronic issue is still there. Until I see them gain a big lead and hold on to it comfortably until the final horn sounds, until I see that, I cannot submit any real progress has been made.

 

[Bufalay]

No it isn't. They've won games giving up big leads and hanging on to barely pull it out. We've seen that before. That's not progress. Still the exact same problem. Teams, on occasion (sarcasasm alert), build 20 point leads during a game and actually put the other team away, eventually winning by 20 points, give or take, but the game is comfortably tucked away. Happens all the time. It's called a blowout. Once a team is up by 20, the game path is generally thought to be on this road. Not this Suns team. It's no secret around the league. You keep playing against the Suns and you can, and will, come back big against this team. Never have I seen before a basketball team get up then give back as many huge leads so consistently and predictably. It must be unprecedented (Would like to see stats on this if anybody has them). I admit it, it's really nice to see them winning a couple again. I dearly wish I believed they've turned some type of proverbial corner, but alas, I cannot allow myself to drink the kool-aid and dismiss the certainty that the chronic issue is still there. Until I see them gain a big lead and hold on to it comfortably until the final horn sounds, until I see that, I cannot submit any real progress has been made.

When you shoot really well for part of a game and play bad defense for a whole game you are bound to build, and give away, large leads. The problem isn't that they can't keep a lead--it is a symptom of their poor defense.


Based on your statements it seems like you would prefer to see them have their hot shooting occur in the second half rather than the first. I can't see an advantage to either outcome.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

When you shoot really well for part of a game and play bad defense for a whole game you are bound to build, and give away, large leads. The problem isn't that they can't keep a lead--it is a symptom of their poor defense.


Based on your statements it seems like you would prefer to see them have their hot shooting occur in the second half rather than the first. I can't see an advantage to either outcome.

The problem isn't that they can't keep a lead? Really?



I would think that's a big problem, but that's just me.

 

[95pro]

basicallly the suns get hot, they build leads. just superior offense at that time.
this greatly offsets(for a while) their below avg defense.
when they go cold, it eventually catches up to them.

i think out of all of this, is that players tend to go on a bad shot selection party which is why the suns go cold. jrich and clark are my two biggest concerns. they forget to play suns basketball and go 1on1 and jack up shots.

 

[Cheesewater]

Kinda hard not to complain when this team blows big leads like they are going out of style. This is the team's Achillie's heal. Any Suns fan who watches the games knows to watch out for the big lead to drop at any given moment. It is what it is and I don't think I am a "crybaby" for pointing out the obvious.

I think everyone here agrees that if we did not have this issue, we'd have 3 or 4 more wins.

The complaints are impotent if the variables of the games are not taken into consideration.

The blown lead complaint is bandied about in here like it's something the Suns could just flip a switch for and solve. Like there aren't a lot of other things happening: shooters heating up or cooling off, players going out for a rest, officials trying to keep it competitive...

Teams build and lose double digit leads all the time. I've heard it said that holding a big lead is one of the hardest things to do in an NBA game. And it's even harder when the lead is built in the first half.

Tell me what your solution for the "problem" is.

 

[Cheesewater]

basicallly the suns get hot, they build leads. just superior offense at that time.
this greatly offsets(for a while) their below avg defense.
when they go cold, it eventually catches up to them.

i think out of all of this, is that players tend to go on a bad shot selection party which is why the suns go cold. jrich and clark are my two biggest concerns. they forget to play suns basketball and go 1on1 and jack up shots.

Yes.

 

[Bufalay]

i think out of all of this, is that players tend to go on a bad shot selection party which is why the suns go cold. jrich and clark are my two biggest concerns. they forget to play suns basketball and go 1on1 and jack up shots.

The bad shot selection exists the whole game. You just don't notice it when the shots are going in.

 

[elindholm]

When you shoot really well for part of a game and play bad defense for a whole game you are bound to build, and give away, large leads. The problem isn't that they can't keep a lead--it is a symptom of their poor defense.

That smacks of Gambler's Fallacy. If you flip a coin 40 times, and if after the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails, the most likely outcome after 40 total flips should be 25-15 heads, not 20-20.

Translation: Even if the way the Suns play is random, once they have a lead, they should be able to hold approximately even -- asuming they are about equally matched with their opponents. They aren't "due" to give the lead back.

 

[Chaplin]

That smacks of Gambler's Fallacy. If you flip a coin 40 times, and if after the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails, the most likely outcome after 40 total flips should be 25-15 heads, not 20-20.

Translation: Even if the way the Suns play is random, once they have a lead, they should be able to hold approximately even -- asuming they are about equally matched with their opponents. They aren't "due" to give the lead back.

This is the NBA, not a game of craps. Your translation can be applied to every team in the NBA this season, except maybe the Lakers.

The problem is that everyone here sees things in black and white and have no concept of the gray areas in a competitive game--whether it's basketball or hockey or football. There are so many variables that go into holding/losing a lead. There's nothing we'd like better than the team to hold a big lead that was made in the 1st half, but the odds of that happening simply aren't very good in today's NBA. That's a statistical fact and again, it applies to every team.

 

[Bufalay]

That smacks of Gambler's Fallacy. If you flip a coin 40 times, and if after the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails, the most likely outcome after 40 total flips should be 25-15 heads, not 20-20.

Translation: Even if the way the Suns play is random, once they have a lead, they should be able to hold approximately even -- asuming they are about equally matched with their opponents. They aren't "due" to give the lead back.

I'm a physicist not a statistician damnit! By "give away" I didn't mean they would lose the game, I mean that they wouldn't sustain a large lead.

 

[TJ]

The complaints are impotent if the variables of the games are not taken into consideration.

The blown lead complaint is bandied about in here like it's something the Suns could just flip a switch for and solve. Like there aren't a lot of other things happening: shooters heating up or cooling off, players going out for a rest, officials trying to keep it competitive...

Teams build and lose double digit leads all the time. I've heard it said that holding a big lead is one of the hardest things to do in an NBA game. And it's even harder when the lead is built in the first half.

Tell me what your solution for the "problem" is.

I've heard you use this argument before. In some cases, teams do blow double digit leads; however, the only team that does it pathologically is the Suns. Nine times in January did the Suns have a double digit lead only to watch it dissipate. Nine!!! Name one team that has blown this many DD leads in one month......

The variables you are referring to go above and beyond scheduling. I am convinced it is more mental than anything. Whether we have no rest or three days rest, the problem still persists. I observe the teams body language once they have a lead and what I see is a complete meltdown not just from one person but by everyone. Forced jumpers, arrant passing, careless turnovers, etc. My solution would be mental skills training to challenge their overconfidence.

This is not a common occurrence in the league. I don't see teams like the Lakers, Nuggets or Cavs blowing big leads on a consistent basis. Remember, we were 14-3 to begin the season. Now, we are clenching onto the 7th seed for dear life. Something has changed.

 

[Cheesewater]

I've heard you use this argument before. In some cases, teams do blow double digit leads; however, the only team that does it pathologically is the Suns. Nine times in January did the Suns have a double digit lead only to watch it dissipate. Nine!!! Name one team that has blown this many DD leads in one month......

The variables you are referring to go above and beyond scheduling. I am convinced it is more mental than anything. Whether we have no rest or three days rest, the problem still persists. I observe the teams body language once they have a lead and what I see is a complete meltdown not just from one person but by everyone. Forced jumpers, arrant passing, careless turnovers, etc. My solution would be mental skills training to challenge their overconfidence.

This is not a common occurrence in the league. I don't see teams like the Lakers, Nuggets or Cavs blowing big leads on a consistent basis. Remember, we were 14-3 to begin the season. Now, we are clenching onto the 7th seed for dear life. Something has changed.

You appear to be ignoring all the in-game variables. I only watch about 10 non-Suns games all the way through during the season so I can't cite other specific games where other teams lost double-digit leads (so that's an easy challenge for you to make). Yes, it's extraordinary that the Suns have done it frequently. But to imply that it happens because ALL of the Suns players are mentally weak seems ill-informed.

Comparing the Suns to the Lakers, Nuggets, or Cavs is pretty silly don't you think? No one is saying the Suns are that good.

 

[elindholm]

There's nothing we'd like better than the team to hold a big lead that was made in the 1st half, but the odds of that happening simply aren't very good in today's NBA. That's a statistical fact and again, it applies to every team.

I doubt it. My guess is that if you looked at the entire sample of NBA games and asked, "If a team achieves a maximum lead of between 15 and 20 points in the first half, what is the eventual outcome?" you would find that, in most cases, the team ends up winning by double digits. A few times they would give up the lead, and a few times they would run it out to 30+ and the game would be basically over.

 

[WildBB]

basicallly the suns get hot, they build leads. just superior offense at that time.
this greatly offsets(for a while) their below avg defense.
when they go cold, it eventually catches up to them.

i think out of all of this, is that players tend to go on a bad shot selection party which is why the suns go cold. jrich and clark are my two biggest concerns. they forget to play suns basketball and go 1on1 and jack up shots.

I don't understand why they didn't have more D players out on the court with 5 minutes to go and a 14 point lead there abouts

They kept getting offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Glad the suns hanged on and got the win vs the hornets, Man it's so nice seeing Robin Lopez

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continue to have good games at rebounding and attacking the rim, also love the way Amare continues to play. But we have a huge game vs Denver tomorrow if we somehow manage to find a way to win it could start a even more nicer win streak. Great start to the road trip though.

 

[Chaplin]

I doubt it. My guess is that if you looked at the entire sample of NBA games and asked, "If a team achieves a maximum lead of between 15 and 20 points in the first half, what is the eventual outcome?" you would find that, in most cases, the team ends up winning by double digits. A few times they would give up the lead, and a few times they would run it out to 30+ and the game would be basically over.

Your "guess?" I would love to eat crow, but you have no factual information to back up your assertions.

Because we're all Suns fans, we tend to see our team A LOT more than other teams. And nobody is saying that the Cavs blow 10+ point leads in 8 straight games. I'm simply saying that it isn't some rare thing you guys keep saying it is.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Your "guess?" I would love to eat crow, but you have no factual information to back up your assertions.

Because we're all Suns fans, we tend to see our team A LOT more than other teams. And nobody is saying that the Cavs blow 10+ point leads in 8 straight games. I'm simply saying that it isn't some rare thing you guys keep saying it is.

If I had to guesstimate, I'd say it happens a handful of times or less per season for any team. Of course, when there are 30 teams in the league, it's gonna seem like it happens quite frequently, but I'd put the house on it that the average is 3-5 times per season for any individual team. I'd be happy to look up other teams this season and last when I have more time to do so.

Last night makes it 11 in the last 28 for this Suns team. There are a lot of factors that would cause such a disturbing trend, but it's my belief that the main cause is Gentry is simply terrible at making the proper adjustments to stop an opponent from making big runs on us.

 

[elindholm]

Your "guess?" I would love to eat crow, but you have no factual information to back up your assertions.

No, I don't, and neither do you. I don't know how to get the answer, but I'm sure it's out there.

Because we're all Suns fans, we tend to see our team A LOT more than other teams.

Yes, but listening to other teams' announcers provides a clue. Whenever a team comes back from 15-18 down against the Suns, that team's announcers get incredibly excited, like it's the most amazing thing they've ever witnessed. That tells me that, generally speaking, they don't see a lot of 18-point comebacks.

 

[TJ]

You appear to be ignoring all the in-game variables. I only watch about 10 non-Suns games all the way through during the season so I can't cite other specific games where other teams lost double-digit leads (so that's an easy challenge for you to make). Yes, it's extraordinary that the Suns have done it frequently. But to imply that it happens because ALL of the Suns players are mentally weak seems ill-informed.

Comparing the Suns to the Lakers, Nuggets, or Cavs is pretty silly don't you think? No one is saying the Suns are that good.

Ill-informed? I am getting a masters in Sports/Exercise psychology. I study athletic behaviors all the time. Ill-informed = educated hypothesis. Ask me how many papers and how much research I've done on topics like this. I think I have a better grip on the mentality of sports than you.

Furthermore, I was completely citing in game variables. Apparently you skimmed through my post. You were talking about back to backs and road trups. I was talking about all variables

Anyways, that is not the premise of my post. I asked you to find me one team that pissed away nine double digit leads in one month.

Your assessment that this happens all the time is completely baseless and uninformed. You also admit you dont watch many other games outside of Suns basketball so you cannot tell me that it is a common occurrence.

I can compare this team to whomever I want. At one point, we were the #1 team in the league. How do you explain such a drop off? Back when we were 14-3 we were in the upper-echelon of teams. Now we are #7 in the west.

Come on man, get a clue!!

 

[Mainstreet]

That smacks of Gambler's Fallacy. If you flip a coin 40 times, and if after the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails, the most likely outcome after 40 total flips should be 25-15 heads, not 20-20.

I'm not into mathematics that much but I believe the oldds are still 50/50 for heads and tails even if the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails. This is my recollection of business statistics.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Your "guess?" I would love to eat crow, but you have no factual information to back up your assertions.

Because we're all Suns fans, we tend to see our team A LOT more than other teams. And nobody is saying that the Cavs blow 10+ point leads in 8 straight games. I'm simply saying that it isn't some rare thing you guys keep saying it is.

Why don't you provide some "facts" to support your case?? Try to find some data that would show some other team(s) that have even come close to accomplishing this feat of futility...
Bottom line - the Suns have been for years and remain a heartless, weak team. And their unprecedented record of blowing 15 point-plus leads is a perfect illustration of their weakness...

 

[Mainstreet]

Bottom line - the Suns have been for years and remain a heartless, weak team. And their unprecedented record of blowing 15 point-plus leads is a perfect illustration of their weakness...

I take exception to you calling the Suns "heartless and weak." I'll let the Suns won loss record speak for itself over the years. In regard to blowing leads the Suns are still in the top eight in the tough Western Conference.

Now if you want to call the Suns frustrating, I would agree. Also if you want to call the Suns undermanned at the 4/5 position I would also agree.