Suns At Hornets Game Thread

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not into mathematics that much but I believe the oldds are still 50/50 for heads and tails even if the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails. This is my recollection of business statistics.

His example is correct - the coin has no memory (that's not sarcasm).

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

His example is correct - the coin has no memory (that's not sarcasm).

Steve

The coin indeed has no memory. That's why it's still 50/50 for the coin coming up heads or tails equally on future coin flips. The coin has no memory about what has previously transpired.

 

[WildBB]

I can compare this team to whomever I want. At one point, we were the #1 team in the league. How do you explain such a drop off? Back when we were 14-3 we were in the upper-echelon of teams. Now we are #7 in the west.

They were never really that good. It was an aberation. They are more of a just above .500 team. It balanced out.

They also knew they needed to come out strong in the beginning because their schedule got alot tougher after the 1st mo.

 

[SunsTzu]

The coin indeed has no memory. That's why it's still 50/50 for the coin coming up heads or tails equally on future coin flips. The coin has no memory about what has previously transpired.

Which is exactly what the initial post on the subject implied. If it is 15 heads-5 tails after 20 flips and you are trying to predict the totals if given another 20 flips you would predict 25 heads-15 tails(10/10 on the second set of 20).

 

[82CardsGrad]

I take exception to you calling the Suns "heartless and weak." I'll let the Suns won loss record speak for itself over the years. In regard to blowing leads the Suns are still in the top eight in the tough Western Conference.

Now if you want to call the Suns frustrating, I would agree. Also if you want to call the Suns undermanned at the 4/5 position I would also agree.

First off, I am a fan. Take exception all you want, but the Suns have been and continue to be viewed as a SOFT team around the league and by NBA fans across the country. Sure, they have put up a bunch of W's over the years, but of course, how many of those W's came when it really mattered?? You know, like in the post season? Like when you need to play defense, grab some boards, get a key stop deep in the 4th quarter??
Sorry dude, this team is all show and no go... been that way for a long, long time. Built for speed. Built for points. And as a fan, the circus act is always entertaining... clowns usually are...

 

[carey]

And as a fan, the circus act is always entertaining... clowns usually are...

Are you 100% certain you're a fan?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Are you 100% certain you're a fan?

Yea... I am. But then again, I'm one who can't look away from train-wrecks either...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sorry dude, this team is all show and no go... been that way for a long, long time. Built for speed. Built for points. And as a fan, the circus act is always entertaining... clowns usually are...

And you don't think that at some point it comes down to talent? You really believe we lose because we are soft and lacking heart and not because Nash is not Kobe and Amare is not Duncan?

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Which is exactly what the initial post on the subject implied. If it is 15 heads-5 tails after 20 flips and you are trying to predict the totals if given another 20 flips you would predict 25 heads-15 tails(10/10 on the second set of 20).

My point is the odds do not change from 50/50 on future coin flips based upon past performance. So predicting the next 20 coin flips is going to be 10/10 on the next set of 20 is unreliable. Again the coin has no memory so it could come out in any number of combinations.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And you don't think that at some point it comes down to talent? You really believe we lose because we are soft and lacking heart and not because Nash is not Kobe and Amare is not Duncan?

Steve

So you can only win with Kobe and Duncan? That's strange... I think Allen, Garnett and Pierce might object to that line of thinking.

Anyway, as I stated above - the team has been and remains a team built for scoring. In other words, they are a weak, SOFT team. Not sure how anyone can legitimately object to that fact...

 

[TJ]

They were never really that good. It was an aberation. They are more of a just above .500 team. It balanced out.

They also knew they needed to come out strong in the beginning because their schedule got alot tougher after the 1st mo.

Their first 17 games were tough too. 11 on the road. 3 sets of back-to-backs. Games against ORL, BOS, LAL.

I would say it is more than a let down than an aberration. Team is still talented. I think we tend to ride the highs and lows a little too hard. Personally, I think this team can be a top 4 team, but they have a major obstacle they need to hurdle; take care of leads.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So you can only win with Kobe and Duncan? That's strange... I think Allen, Garnett and Pierce might object to that line of thinking.

Anyway, as I stated above - the team has been and remains a team built for scoring. In other words, they are a weak, SOFT team. Not sure how anyone can legitimately object to that fact...

My point was about talent. Are you suggesting that we've recently had a team as talented as that Boston team? If you could go back in time and analyze each of our last several years with foreknowledge on injuries is there a single year where we really should have fared better? I'd certainly say no to both questions although the year that Amare gets suspended might be debatable.

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

My point was about talent. Are you suggesting that we've recently had a team as talented as that Boston team? If you could go back in time and analyze each of our last several years with foreknowledge on injuries is there a single year where we really should have fared better? I'd certainly say no to both questions although the year that Amare gets suspended might be debatable.

Steve

Hard to say... the team wasn't ever built for a NBA Championship... which is the point I've been making throughout this thread. I think they have had enough talent over the years to have at least made it to one NBA Finals. But as I've always contended, to win in the NBA when it matters, you need to be tough. Need to be able to execute in the half-court on both offense and defense. Need to be able to clean the glass and you definitely need to grab key stops late in the game. The Suns were never built this way, hence, they have always been a SOFT team...

 

[AfroSuns]

Yea... I am. But then again, I'm one who can't look away from train-wrecks either...

Wow! you are a fan??
Good thing there is such a thing as post count or i would have mistaken you for a troll. First you called them heartless and weak, then a clown.
They are 7th in the west and 3 games away from 3 spot, they are probably where we thought they did be (maybe better) starting the season based on personnel. I personally didn't think they would start the season 14-3.
Maybe you need to stick with reasonable expectations of this roster's talent and (with a little luck on their side) hope they surprise us instead of character bashing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hard to say... the team wasn't ever built for a NBA Championship... which is the point I've been making throughout this thread. I think they have had enough talent over the years to have at least made it to one NBA Finals. But as I've always contended, to win in the NBA when it matters, you need to be tough. Need to be able to execute in the half-court on both offense and defense. Need to be able to clean the glass and you definitely need to grab key stops late in the game. The Suns were never built this way, hence, they have always been a SOFT team...

Oh I think we were built to have a chance at a championship. We weren't the first team to have the fortunes of luck turn against us and we certainly won't be the last. If you have the right kind of players you need a bit less luck than we needed but for the most part those players haven't been available for us.

Mike Fratello put together a Cavs team that was hard-nosed, strong on defense and disciplined on offense. That team was not good enough to win it all because they didn't have the likes of MJ, Bird, Magic or Hakeem. The fans dress up as empty seats and Fratello gets a TV gig out of having a team that is far from soft. Failing to succeed was no more a matter of philosophy for them than it has been for us.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I'm not into mathematics that much but I believe the oldds are still 50/50 for heads and tails even if the first 20 it's 15 heads and 5 tails. This is my recollection of business statistics.

Yes, exactly. So if you start 15-5, the most likely outcome for the next 20 is 10-10, making 25-15.

 

[Chaplin]

First off, I am a fan. Take exception all you want, but the Suns have been and continue to be viewed as a SOFT team around the league and by NBA fans across the country. Sure, they have put up a bunch of W's over the years, but of course, how many of those W's came when it really mattered?? You know, like in the post season? Like when you need to play defense, grab some boards, get a key stop deep in the 4th quarter??
Sorry dude, this team is all show and no go... been that way for a long, long time. Built for speed. Built for points. And as a fan, the circus act is always entertaining... clowns usually are...

"Soft" doesn't mean heartless. Tell Jared Dudley and Steve Nash that they're heartless.

Honestly, it's amazing some people here actually watch any games. Seems like they don't most of the time.

 

[82CardsGrad]

"Soft" doesn't mean heartless. Tell Jared Dudley and Steve Nash that they're heartless.

Honestly, it's amazing some people here actually watch any games. Seems like they don't most of the time.

Amare = Heartless
JRich = Heartless
Frye = Heartless

And then there were players like Diaw...

I'll grant you Nash isn't "heartless", and yes, Dudley & Amundson play with heart.
So, you've got your supposed "leader" in Nash, who really isn't a "leader" in the mold of traditional, in your face leaders... And then we have a few bench guys who play with passion...

The TEAM as a whole is SOFT and HEARTLESS. Simply getting outrebounded as often as they do, and dropping as many 15 point leads as they have would ordinarily cement this fact for more objective observers...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Wow! you are a fan??
Good thing there is such a thing as post count or i would have mistaken you for a troll. First you called them heartless and weak, then a clown.
They are 7th in the west and 3 games away from 3 spot, they are probably where we thought they did be (maybe better) starting the season based on personnel. I personally didn't think they would start the season 14-3.
Maybe you need to stick with reasonable expectations of this roster's talent and (with a little luck on their side) hope they surprise us instead of character bashing.

I was very surprised to see the team jump out to that 14-3 record. They really aren't anywhere near that good. And yes, they are now playing at a level that is where most of us probably thought they would be... However, beyond the wins and losses, it's how the team plays... how they lose. I am not at all suggesting that this team has the talent to be any better than where they are right now. My point is simple - they are a soft, heartless team. Period.

 

[Mulli]

I was very surprised to see the team jump out to that 14-3 record. They really aren't anywhere near that good. And yes, they are now playing at a level that is where most of us probably thought they would be... However, beyond the wins and losses, it's how the team plays... how they lose. I am not at all suggesting that this team has the talent to be any better than where they are right now. My point is simple - they are a soft, heartless team. Period.

If you have three players on the team who have "heart", how can the te be heartless? Soft, yeah probably. Heartless is a little much.

 

[82CardsGrad]

If you have three players on the team who have "heart", how can the te be heartless? Soft, yeah probably. Heartless is a little much.

You can look at it that way... I see a team of 14 that has a sampling of players who can be said to possess "heart". 2 of which aren't even starters...

I think the points I've made are clear. I hope that some time in our lifetimes they progress to a team that can play tough when it matters most...

 

[Mulli]

You can look at it that way... I see a team of 14 that has a sampling of players who can be said to possess "heart". 2 of which aren't even starters...

I think the points I've made are clear. I hope that some time in our lifetimes they progress to a team that can play tough when it matters most...

Perhaps, they just aren't good enough, and no amount of heart can cover that up.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Perhaps, they just aren't good enough, and no amount of heart can cover that up.

Oh, for sure... as I said earlier, the team right now is probably playing right at its' potential. Slightly better than .500. However, rebounding is as much about heart and "want-to", as it is about talent... Same for defense...

 

[Cheesewater]

Ill-informed? I am getting a masters in Sports/Exercise psychology. I study athletic behaviors all the time. Ill-informed = educated hypothesis. Ask me how many papers and how much research I've done on topics like this. I think I have a better grip on the mentality of sports than you.

If you are such a scholar, why don't you submit something a little more in-depth than "mental skills training"? Post one of your papers, I'd love to read it. Let's say you've got Nash, Hill, Richardson and the rest in a room, what do you say to them? "Buckle down, guys. Come on!" Let's hear your learned analysis on what is wrong mentally with the Suns that doesn't exist in other teams' players.

Furthermore, I was completely citing in game variables. Apparently you skimmed through my post. You were talking about back to backs and road trups. I was talking about all variables

No, actually, you grouped all the games in question and chalked it up to lack of mental skills. You didn't once acknowledge variables beyond the Suns control. It isn't black and white.

Anyways, that is not the premise of my post. I asked you to find me one team that pissed away nine double digit leads in one month.

And I already told you that was extraordinary.

Your assessment that this happens all the time is completely baseless and uninformed. You also admit you dont watch many other games outside of Suns basketball so you cannot tell me that it is a common occurrence.

I said I only watch 10 or so games ALL THE WAY THROUGH during the season. I watch parts of many other games and have seen a team lose a double-digit lead. And I've been watching professional basketball for 30+ years.

Here, I checked all the recaps for all the games in the past week:
The Kings blew a double-digit lead on 26 January. Houston, New Jersey, Utah, Golden State, and Miami lost double-digit leads on 27 January. Boston, New York, and Dallas lost double-digit leads on 28 January. Atlanta, Chicago, Minnesota, New Jersey, Houston, and the Lakers all lost double-digit leads on 29 January. The Spurs lost double-digit leads several times on 29 January. The Wiz, Memphis, Milwaukee, and Charlotte all lost double-digit leads on 30 January. The Celtics, Grizzlies, Magic, Raptors, Knicks, and Thunder lost double-digit leads on 31 January. The Blazers, Grizzlies, and Kings lost double-digit leads two days ago. The Thunder lost a double-digit lead just last night. So did the Rockets (they built it back eventually). The Bucks lost a 12 point first quarter lead last night.

So out of 60 games in the past week, a double-digit lead was lost in 32 of them.

I can compare this team to whomever I want. At one point, we were the #1 team in the league. How do you explain such a drop off? Back when we were 14-3 we were in the upper-echelon of teams. Now we are #7 in the west.

I didn't say you couldn't compare those teams, I said it was silly. And no, the Suns were never the #1 team, they had a good record but that doesn't make them a good team.

 

[mojorizen7]

First off, I am a fan. Take exception all you want, but the Suns have been and continue to be viewed as a SOFT team around the league and by NBA fans across the country. Sure, they have put up a bunch of W's over the years, but of course, how many of those W's came when it really mattered?? You know, like in the post season? Like when you need to play defense, grab some boards, get a key stop deep in the 4th quarter??
Sorry dude, this team is all show and no go... been that way for a long, long time. Built for speed. Built for points. And as a fan, the circus act is always entertaining... clowns usually are...

You are correct sir.

We need to go out & get us another Charles Barkley....except this time we also need to play some "D."
LOL