Suns at Lakers 3-22-11

[Chaplin]

Those are good points. You really made me stop and think again about why I want to see Gortat start.

(1) To maximize the time of our best Point Guard and best Center on the floor together, rather than losing it twelve minutes per game, then playing catchup each half.

(2) To keep our best Center refreshed for crunch time.

The only way I can see that happening is with Gortat playing alongside our best guys at each position, playing against the opposition's best guys and getting a breather in the 2nd and 4th quarters.

Would you think about that? If there is a way that we can continue to bring Gortat off the bench and not wear him out or minimize his time with the starters, I'm open to it. I just don't think it's possible.

If part of the thinking is having Nash anchor the first team and Gortat anchor the second team, I just don't think it works with the least powerful and most powerful players on the team.

It results more in a situation of divide and conquer.

Chap and everyone else, what do you think?

At the end of the game, it won't matter if Gortat starts or not because he will have played a huge amount of minutes anyway up until that point. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, in the last 5 minutes of the game, he still would have played at least 30-35 minutes already.

It's a foregone conclusion that Lopez WILL play during a game, whether it's 8 minutes or 12 minutes, he definitely will play. Personally, I think the CHANCES of him producing are better with Nash on the floor with him than with Brooks and/or Dowdell. Gortat, however, has a MUCH better chance of producing with the backups on the floor.

I think you underestimate just how much Gortat means to the bench.

 

[Chaplin]

I just watched the game on league pass and wanted to give props to the Suns for a good game against a very good (but not great) team. I was impressed with Frye and I can see that Gortat is a solid C. Tough loss of course. If the refs would have called this game in a neutral way the Suns would have won it, but that's just the way it is when you meet the Fakers. I assure you that it's the same for the Spurs.

Also want to give props to the good posters on this thread. (The ones who posted before that Charlie Chaplin guy stumbled in). It's nice to see posters who actually watch the game, understand it, enjoy it, and care about their own team. Good luck to you in the next game.

LOL

Pot, meet kettle. "Stumbled in" That's rich coming from you. I may disagree with a lot of guys here, but at least we're all Suns fans at the end of the day--you're just a Spurs troll that thinks he can get away with his behavior by posting something like this. I will defend BC, sunsfan88, desertdawg, cheesebeef, etc. to the DEATH against the likes of you, no matter how much I disagree with them.

If you have nothing intelligent to say about SUNS basketball then you have no place here.

 

[Chaplin]

That was one hell of an exciting game. Lakers/Suns always seems to be a fun game, and it rarely has any sniff of how on/off either team is that year. They simply bring it. The Lakers have a tendancy to give open looks from three off of their defensive rotations, and the Suns can light up the three ball like no other team out there. Makes for some wild games.

Last night though, was a joy for a basketball fan (especially a Laker fan, but a basketball fan in general). Kobe shooting ridiculous shots and great passes en route to a near triple double. Nash with 20 assists on some of the best passing I've seen in awhile, and those three straight three pointers was vintage Nash "time to make something happen." Frye was unstoppable. Great situational defense from the Lakers on traps and doubles to force turnovers. Countless huge clutch shots. Gortat making Lopez look for a real estate agent. Lamar proving why he's the best sixth man in the league - while the Laker bench proves why they NEED him coming off the bench. Grant Hill playing good D, and all these old guys going 50 minutes.

Huzzah, basketball.

+1

No doubt a playoff series between the Suns and Lakers would be hella exciting, but Suns fans have to face facts, there's no way we would beat them (or the Spurs) in the first round. Last year's sweep of SA was spectacular, but there's one thing we had then that we don't have now -- and he's in NYC.

The same people in one breath talk about how horrible they feel because they lost, and then a day later talk about how they want the rebuilding to begin already. Which is it? Normally there are two distinct groups--now it seems like most people just like to flip-flop day-to-day.

Earlier this year I was firmly in the playoffs or bust camp. Not anymore. I'm not looking forward to 5 years of futility, but we might as well get started sooner rather than later.

 

[Mainstreet]

+1
The same people in one breath talk about how horrible they feel because they lost, and then a day later talk about how they want the rebuilding to begin already. Which is it? Normally there are two distinct groups--now it seems like most people just like to flip-flop day-to-day.

I want the Suns in the lottery but there is no way I can root against this team. The process of winning by losing is quite logical but it is hard to accept emotionally. When the Suns are out of the playoff race entirely it will be easier to accept as the Suns jockey for position in the lottery.

 

[Chaplin]

I want the Suns in the lottery but there is no way I can root against this team. The process of winning by losing is quite logical but it is hard to accept emotionally. When the Suns are out of the playoff race entirely it will be easier to accept as the Suns jockey for position in the lottery.

As far as the games themselves, I'm still enjoying them in the moment--so I still want them to win every time, but like I said earlier, 5 minutes after the game (especially after a loss), I come back to the reality of us being a late lottery team. I would have LOVED us to win the game last night, not because it would bring us closer to a meaningless and short playoff run, but because it was against the Lakers.

 

[D-Dogg]

Lamar Odom being a sixth man is what is wrong with the NBA, the big market teams can easily stash away a starting caliber PF on the bench for $$$. NBA- where lack of parity happens.

That's hardly what is wrong with the NBA. Inconsistent officiating ranks far, far higher than a team like LA being able to sway players like Odom to stay with them for less money than they'd make elsewhere.

 

[BC867]

LOL

Pot, meet kettle. "Stumbled in" That's rich coming from you. I may disagree with a lot of guys here, but at least we're all Suns fans at the end of the day--you're just a Spurs troll that thinks he can get away with his behavior by posting something like this. I will defend BC, sunsfan88, desertdawg, cheesebeef, etc. to the DEATH against the likes of you, no matter how much I disagree with them.

If you have nothing intelligent to say about SUNS basketball then you have no place here.

Good shot, Chap!

 

[chickenhead]

It's hard for me to harp on Gortat as a starter when he had over 5 times Lopez' minutes last night. But I couldn't watch--did Lopez get in foul trouble?


Good thing they are playing Toronto tonight, but a lot of the Suns played two games' worth of minutes last night. A tough break to come so close last night if it hurts them tonight.

 

[SirStefan32]

It's hard for me to harp on Gortat as a starter when he had over 5 times Lopez' minutes last night. But I couldn't watch--did Lopez get in foul trouble?


Good thing they are playing Toronto tonight, but a lot of the Suns played two games' worth of minutes last night. A tough break to come so close last night if it hurts them tonight.

I have two issues with Lopez starting.

1. Gortat ends up playing 18-20 minutes straight twice per game. I don't care in what kind of shape you are or how young you are- that is a lot of minutes, and you will get tired.

2. Gortat is not slightly better than Lopez. It is not even close. Gortat is a legitimate NBA Center. Let's try to name Centers who are better than Gortat:
- Dwight Howard, obviously.
- Al Horford, Al Jefferson, and Amare Stoudemire, and Tim Duncan if you count them as Centers. In my opinion, they are all PFs, but some people would count them as Centers.
Anybody I am missing? Noah, Chandler, Brook Lopez, Nene are all good players, but I don't think I would rank them much higher than Gortat.
Marcin's neeb playing great basketball since coming to phoenix.

Perhaps I am a homer, but outside of DHoward and PFs pretending to be Cs, I don't see many better than Gortat.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, Brook Lopez, for example, is clearly a much better offensive player, so I am not saying that Gortat is better than Brook Lopez or Bargnani offensively.
What I am saying is that if you take into account their offense, defense, and rebounding, Gortat starts to look like a very good Center.

 

[elindholm]

This argument has gotten far beyond tiresome.

The Suns need Lopez's minutes. How are those minutes likely to be most effective: with starters who are strong offensively, or with bench players who have difficulty creating? It seems pretty clear that Lopez, as little as he contributes, would contribute far less without Nash setting him up. And for those of you who say that Lopez's contribution is already zero, be honest and imagine for a moment what it would be like with an actual zero contribution.

Gortat, as the more skilled and creative player, can better survive playing with a Nash-less unit that, more often than not, is pretty clueless offensively. He still gets most of his minutes with Nash, but when the Suns need a center to be on the floor with Brooks or Dowdell or whoever, he also gets that call.

It's all about minimizing the negative impact of Lopez's minutes. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

 

[SirStefan32]

This argument has gotten far beyond tiresome.

The Suns need Lopez's minutes. How are those minutes likely to be most effective: with starters who are strong offensively, or with bench players who have difficulty creating? It seems pretty clear that Lopez, as little as he contributes, would contribute far less without Nash setting him up. And for those of you who say that Lopez's contribution is already zero, be honest and imagine for a moment what it would be like with an actual zero contribution.

Gortat, as the more skilled and creative player, can better survive playing with a Nash-less unit that, more often than not, is pretty clueless offensively. He still gets most of his minutes with Nash, but when the Suns need a center to be on the floor with Brooks or Dowdell or whoever, he also gets that call.

It's all about minimizing the negative impact of Lopez's minutes. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

I understand that Eric. Gortat can't play 48 minutes. We have to deal with Lopez stinking it up for 8-10 minutes per game, I get that.

I am arguing that while starting Lopez may minimize the negative impact of Robin's minutes, it also minimizes the positive impact of Marcin's minutes.
I would argue that the Suns are minimizing the positive impact of Gortat MORE than they are minimizing the negative impact of Lopez, thus doing more harm then good.

 

[sunsfan88]

BTW why did we not foul on that last possesion and just let Kobe put a floater over us?

 

[desertdawg]

This argument has gotten far beyond tiresome.

The Suns need Lopez's minutes. How are those minutes likely to be most effective: with starters who are strong offensively, or with bench players who have difficulty creating? It seems pretty clear that Lopez, as little as he contributes, would contribute far less without Nash setting him up. And for those of you who say that Lopez's contribution is already zero, be honest and imagine for a moment what it would be like with an actual zero contribution.

Gortat, as the more skilled and creative player, can better survive playing with a Nash-less unit that, more often than not, is pretty clueless offensively. He still gets most of his minutes with Nash, but when the Suns need a center to be on the floor with Brooks or Dowdell or whoever, he also gets that call.

It's all about minimizing the negative impact of Lopez's minutes. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

Let me break it down for you...the Lopez isn't even part of the problem denial thing amazes me.
Start of the second half, we were down 5? With Nash and Lopez on the court, we fell behind by 18 points! Down 18 points against the Lakers...no chance we come back right?
Nash and Lopez go to the bench, Gortat and the bench come in and just play give and take for about 6 minutes, not falling further behind.

Then , finally, Nash and Frye come back in and Gortat is still on the court, (down by 19 pts) we proceed to make one of the coolest comebacks I've seen in a long time. Because Gortat sets picks, plays defense, he does look like a superstar compared to Lopez.
Lopez gets burned by top league talent , he doesn't rebound, and his defense is turrible. Lopez would play better against other bench quality centers, he can't do anything with Nash because he is out matched from the get.
Lopez supporters never quit, even after they watch the games, sheesh.
We might have had a better shot not starting Lopez and not going down by 18 points...
The points we got with Nash Frye Gortat on the floor could have put us up by 20, instead of catching up from 20 points behind. Rest Gortat after his start like any normal coach, that's when Lopez comes in for a few minutes, B-ball 101.
It's actually quite simple.

 

[elindholm]

I would argue that the Suns are minimizing the positive impact of Gortat MORE than they are minimizing the negative impact of Lopez, thus doing more harm then good.

That's a valid stance, and there's no way to be sure, but my guess is that it's incorrect. The second unit is barely competent as it is. Swap out Gortat for Lopez, and they are really in trouble.

 

[sunsfan88]

Does anyone make more negative impact on a team than Vince Carter?

I mean we should trade Vince to the a team we hate because he will instantly make them bad.

A team featuring Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Shaq and Kobe all in their primes would NOT win a championship if it had Vince Carter.

 

[Mainstreet]

I understand that Eric. Gortat can't play 48 minutes. We have to deal with Lopez stinking it up for 8-10 minutes per game, I get that.

I am arguing that while starting Lopez may minimize the negative impact of Robin's minutes, it also minimizes the positive impact of Marcin's minutes.
I would argue that the Suns are minimizing the positive impact of Gortat MORE than they are minimizing the negative impact of Lopez, thus doing more harm then good.

So do you have a solution? Would you have Lopez coming off the bench.

 

[SirStefan32]

So do you have a solution? Would you have Lopez coming off the bench.

Of course I would bring Lopez of the bench. If I wouldn't start him, that means I'd bring him off the bench. What else would I do with him?

I think that he wouldn't be as terrible against other backup Centers as he is against starters. Granted, not playing with Nash would make him even worse offensively, but I don't think he would get abused as badly on defense.

I also believe that having Gortat start would help with not falling behind in the first 5 minutes of the game.

 

[BC867]

I am arguing that while starting Lopez may minimize the negative impact of Robin's minutes, it also minimizes the positive impact of Marcin's minutes.

I would argue that the Suns are minimizing the positive impact of Gortat MORE than they are minimizing the negative impact of Lopez, thus doing more harm then good.

You hit it on the nose. That is the main point.

Minimizing incompetence fulfills mediocrity.

But maximizing strength fulfills excellence.

Despite the Suns not being a balanced team, if Gentry had coached to get the maximum out of each position since the trade, we'd be in the playoffs.

Specifically, start Gortat in order to not have to overcome deficits from the start, and be able to rest Nash after his alloted minutes, rather than needing him at the end of each game.

As desertdog reported in great detail:

Start of the second half, we were down 5? With Nash and Lopez on the court, we fell behind by 18 points! Down 18 points against the Lakers...no chance we come back right?
Nash and Lopez go to the bench, Gortat and the bench come in and just play give and take for about 6 minutes, not falling further behind.

Then , finally, Nash and Frye come back in and Gortat is still on the court, (down by 19 pts) we proceed to make one of the coolest comebacks I've seen in a long time. Because Gortat sets picks, plays defense, he does look like a superstar compared to Lopez.

Use Lopez off the bench to go against other NBA backups and give Gortat breathers after twelve minutes of play. If he can't keep up with other backups, he should be in the D-League.

But, start Carter to see if he has it in the the 1st quarter that night, then bring in Dudley as our main Shooting Guard 'til the end of the game, with a few rests when needed.

Yes, I'm advocating reversing the roles of Lopez (a young guy showing no learning skills at the Center position) and Carter (an old guy whose skills have diminished at the Wing) because it would made the team stronger.

Whether you agree or disagree with these assessments, they are no less legitimate than the status quo. And the status quo has just about eliminated us from the playoffs.

The only rationale of the status quo is tanking. I am one Suns fan who does not accept that.

 

[elindholm]

And the status quo has just about eliminated us from the playoffs.

In your spare time, you might want to check out the difference between correlation and causation.

 

[BC867]

In your spare time, you might want to check out the difference between correlation and causation.

Mr. Lindholm, I went into specific detail concerning a basketball court.

You gave a vague one-liner apropos a court of law.

That's your defense? As they say in the Southwest commercials, "Guilty!"

 

[chickenhead]

I'd simply love to see a justification for the status quo from the coaching staff. I was just in Phx for a few weeks and watched basically every game, listened to postgame shows and local radio, and read this board among other things. Can someone fill me in? Has Gentry spelled out why he's keeping the present rotation? It seems like I've followed a two-month argument here but that's it.

But then, whenever I think about it, I'm actually less concerned with Lopez starting than why he has regressed. Gentry called it a "mystery." There's got to be a better answer than that from the coach.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd simply love to see a justification for the status quo from the coaching staff. I was just in Phx for a few weeks and watched basically every game, listened to postgame shows and local radio, and read this board among other things. Can someone fill me in? Has Gentry spelled out why he's keeping the present rotation? It seems like I've followed a two-month argument here but that's it.

But then, whenever I think about it, I'm actually less concerned with Lopez starting than why he has regressed. Gentry called it a "mystery." There's got to be a better answer than that from the coach.

i'm more concerned with this:

re: Lopez, Gentry said: "One of the things that I thought had been a great thing was he was one of the big men that had great athleticism,"

uh... what? Lopez doesn't have anything close to great athleticism and has always been a step slow and looking like he's got somewhat cement shoes.

and even more concerned with THIS:

"In actuality, we really thought that he (Lopez) would probably be the second-most-important guy on our team, especially if he took a big leap."

REALLY?!

I kinda think this entire FO has been really clueless as to talent evals/personnel decisions at this point... with the exception of Gortat which was a steal of a deal.

 

[jagu]

At the end of every game the same Lopez debate starts up lol.

 

[Gwindor]

After last game aganist Raptors i have some thoughts... (i'm writing here, coz i don't wanna start another discussion in another tread about this... )

So... I think, that playing Gortat with Brooks is just wasting MG offensive game on P&R. Brooks finally starts to look like legit shot-first PG. He lacks at P&R game though, in which Gortat is good. Instead of TRYING to spoonfeed Lopez when he plays with Nash Suns could let Brooks play with Robin. Brooks don't need much more than good screen, and big body of RoLo will do in that aspect...

From the other hand Gortat works great with Nash and while he is on court with Brooks his role is limited to setting screens and looking for rebounds.

I'm not forcing another argument to start Gortat coz it is hopeless discussion. I'm trying to say that when Suns don't start Gortat they should at least give him major minutes on the court with Nash not with Brooks/ZD.

 

[desertdawg]

After last game aganist Raptors i have some thoughts... (i'm writing here, coz i don't wanna start another discussion in another tread about this... )

So... I think, that playing Gortat with Brooks is just wasting MG offensive game on P&R. Brooks finally starts to look like legit shot-first PG. He lacks at P&R game though, in which Gortat is good. Instead of TRYING to spoonfeed Lopez when he plays with Nash Suns could let Brooks play with Robin. Brooks don't need much more than good screen, and big body of RoLo will do in that aspect...

From the other hand Gortat works great with Nash and while he is on court with Brooks his role is limited to setting screens and looking for rebounds.

I'm not forcing another argument to start Gortat coz it is hopeless discussion. I'm trying to say that when Suns don't start Gortat they should at least give him major minutes on the court with Nash not with Brooks/ZD.

Nice points, nice post.

Brooks does seem to play much better when he is looking to score first. Also last night, running 2 point guards really gave us some boost. I think Lopez could do well with that unit if he kept rebounds and defense on his mind. Nash and Gortat play so well together, I hope they share more time on the court, with Mr.Cutch....Channing Frye.