Suns at Nuggets 11/28/14

[elindholm]

The Suns play finesse basketball for the lack of a better terminology when they are playing well.... Sadly the Suns have put together a finesse team that will win some nights when everything works but when they don't against a physical team, they are going to get thrashed.

And yet, two months ago, most of this board was singing the praises of small "finesse" ball as being "exciting" and "fun to watch." So the other sad reality is that a mediocre team with minimal upside on the roster really isn't that rewarding to watch.

Are we allowed to criticize McDonough yet? The recent line was, "We know that all of McDonogh's moves are good, because the ones that we already think we can evaluate seem to be good, mainly, and so it follows that the ones that look bad must also be good." Is it time to break that chain of circular reasoning?

 

[Cheesebeef]

And yet, two months ago, most of this board was singing the praises of small "finesse" ball as being "exciting" and "fun to watch." So the other sad reality is that a mediocre team with minimal upside on the roster really isn't that rewarding to watch.

Are we allowed to criticize McDonough yet? The recent line was, "We know that all of McDonogh's moves are good, because the ones that we already think we can evaluate seem to be good, mainly, and so it follows that the ones that look bad must also be good." Is it time to break that chain of circular reasoning?

I definitely think we've got a pretty good amount of time/decision McD has made to start judging him.

 

[desertdawg]

Piratedawg says guuuaaarrrrd

 

[95pro]

The Suns play finesse basketball for the lack of a better terminology when they are playing well. However, they do not rebound well and play any sort of team defense. Their offense is mostly a lot of one-on-one stuff as you say. I keep wanting to scream at the TV, where is the beef. Sadly the Suns have put together a finesse team that will win some nights when everything works but when they don't against a physical team, they are going to get thrashed. The word is out how to beat the Suns... drive the ball to the basket. Unless the Suns make a trade to improve their situation, it will be a tough season.

from the games that i've watched, it seems like we don't know how to rotate or when to rotate. it all starts with Plumlee, he's terrible at it. All he does is rely on coming from the weak side for a last second block or a surprise rebound.

 

[Mainstreet]

And yet, two months ago, most of this board was singing the praises of small "finesse" ball as being "exciting" and "fun to watch." So the other sad reality is that a mediocre team with minimal upside on the roster really isn't that rewarding to watch.

I don't believe this is what most most posters were saying if any. The Suns have a lot of skill players but this was never considered an excuse for the Suns not finding a player that can bang inside. This lead to endless discussion of the Suns need to acquire players like Ed Davis and even Jordon Hill. It was discussed at length. There was even a thread titled, "What one player would you add?".

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/what-one-player-would-you-add-213552.html

Are we allowed to criticize McDonough yet? The recent line was, "We know that all of McDonogh's moves are good, because the ones that we already think we can evaluate seem to be good, mainly, and so it follows that the ones that look bad must also be good." Is it time to break that chain of circular reasoning?

Interesting quote. Is this your quote or someone else? I think McDonough is fair game for criticism as everything else on this board.

I would also say Jeff Hornacek is open to criticism for running what looks to me a lesser version of SSOL. There is especially no defense being played consistently and the spacing on the floor is poor. Also the Suns are not running at every opportunity.

 

[Mainstreet]

from the games that i've watched, it seems like we don't know how to rotate or when to rotate. it all starts with Plumlee, he's terrible at it. All he does is rely on coming from the weak side for a last second block or a surprise rebound.

You may be right but I think the Suns problems are bigger than Plumlee. He can't be on the floor the whole game.

 

[BC867]

And when is Hornacek going to finally grow a pair and start Tucker and Len? Is an injury to Marcus and Plumlee what it will take?

I was disappointed in Tucker for what caused his suspension. Once he paid his dues and came back, he should have returned to his position -- starting Small Forward (including top defender against opposing starters).

And that is why I have been vocal against having the gimmick of brothers on the Suns. The coaching staff is not doing what is best for the team. They're doing what will keep the better brother happy.

As far as Len, why isn't Horny giving him the same chance he gave Plumlee (knowing that Len has the far greater potential)? The time to do it is early in the season.

I supported the choice of Jeff Hornacek. But Cotton's golden boy isn't looking quite as golden with his D'Antoni-like obsessions.

 

[desertdawg]

Piratedawg says ggguuuuaaaaaarrrrrddd.

 

[sunsfan88]

.

I would also say Jeff Hornacek is open to criticism for running what looks to me a lesser version of SSOL. There is especially no defense being played consistently and the spacing on the floor is poor. Also the Suns are not running at every opportunity.

To make things worse he also rarely ever runs any half court plays that aren't pick and roll or iso.

I don't think Hornacek practices any half court offense in practice. It must be all fast breaks and 3pt shooting.

It reminds me of how I play basketball with my friends at the gym. We don't run plays other than pick and roll either, and it's all fast break and 3s otherwise.

Thing with that kinda offense is its not gonna work all the time or even most of the time. We caught ton of teams off guard last season so it worked.

But there's a reason why teams like Memphis and Chicago tend to always kick our ass, it's because they get back on defense which then leads to nothing but some pick and roll & ISO plays for the Suns.

 

[Mainstreet]

To make things worse he also rarely ever runs any half court plays that aren't pick and roll or iso.

I don't think Hornacek practices any half court offense in practice. It must be all fast breaks and 3pt shooting.

It reminds me of how I play basketball with my friends at the gym. We don't run plays other than pick and roll either, and it's all fast break and 3s otherwise.

Thing with that kinda offense is its not gonna work all the time or even most of the time. We caught ton of teams off guard last season so it worked.

But there's a reason why teams like Memphis and Chicago tend to always kick our ass, it's because they get back on defense which then leads to nothing but some pick and roll & ISO plays for the Suns.

Some things never change. The Suns in a halfcourt game is not pretty.

 

[Errntknght]

We haven't entirely given McD and Hornacek free rides - there was widespread criticism for McD picking Len at number five and a fair contingent wasn't enamored of his acquisition of Bledsoe. Jeff using two PGs together caught plenty of criticism from the get go though it subsided with the team's success. I got on Jeff early for the paucity of half court plays and not using Ish more. Also in failing to develop Len and Goodwin as the season wore on.

IMO, passing on Ed Davis was McD's biggest mistake so far, especially when you couple it with acquiring Tolliver. Anthony hasn't been as bad as I feared but he's still a long way from helping the team. Randolph defends and rebounds better, which is enough for me to bench Tolliver and play him - heck, Shavik might actually contribute on offense if we tried including him.

Interestingly, I was reading what Kerr is doing at GS this year to broaden their offense - mostly Iso's under Jackson if you recall. He specifically mentioned adding the 'pinch post' maneuver as part of that - just so you know I didn't invent that out of whole cloth. It appears it is featured in the triangle as well as the Princeton offense, which I wasn't aware of. As long as I'm on the subject of Kerr, he has the team playing better defense this year and it was pretty good before. According to my stats GSW has the best D in the league as we speak. You'd expect him to try coming from Phil Jackson and Pops but he seems to know what he is doing.

 

[Mainstreet]

We haven't entirely given McD and Hornacek free rides - there was widespread criticism for McD picking Len at number five and a fair contingent wasn't enamored of his acquisition of Bledsoe. Jeff using two PGs together caught plenty of criticism from the get go though it subsided with the team's success. I got on Jeff early for the paucity of half court plays and not using Ish more. Also in failing to develop Len and Goodwin as the season wore on.

IMO, passing on Ed Davis was McD's biggest mistake so far, especially when you couple it with acquiring Tolliver. Anthony hasn't been as bad as I feared but he's still a long way from helping the team. Randolph defends and rebounds better, which is enough for me to bench Tolliver and play him - heck, Shavik might actually contribute on offense if we tried including him.

Interestingly, I was reading what Kerr is doing at GS this year to broaden their offense - mostly Iso's under Jackson if you recall. He specifically mentioned adding the 'pinch post' maneuver as part of that - just so you know I didn't invent that out of whole cloth. It appears it is featured in the triangle as well as the Princeton offense, which I wasn't aware of.

If McDonough passed on Ed Davis I am disappointed, not that he is the cure, but he would have been a step in the right direction. Some have speculated that Ed Davis chose the Lakers to prepare him for a bigger payday. I still have trouble with this theory.

I have either rightly or wrongly looked at McDonough as a collector of assets during his short time with the Suns. He collects the most valuable and moveable assets he can find to set up a future trade. I would be shocked if McDonough does not go after a major trade before the trade deadline. This is why he was dead set against letting Bledsoe go without compensation.

I think Hornacek worries me the most at the present time. He has shown me he wants to play a traditional center which is a plus, but his offensive and defensive philosophy really concerns me. I just see scoring as the primary theme of this team which is not bad if the Suns had something to go with it. I'm especially sad the Suns have not improved defensively... actually I think they have regressed if that is possible. Maybe if the Suns reduce their player rotation sometime in the future things will settle down. I'm just waiting for one of their three rotation PGs to be traded.

 

[ProdigalSun]

This team was dead in the water with no hope just 2 seasons ago. Last season was a huge surprise how quickly competitive this team became in just one offseason. I am pretty happy overall with where this team is at, but am still in wait and see mode at this point. I feel like we are at least 2 years away from being true contenders again anyways. My biggest disappointment so far is wishing we would develop our younger assets like Len and Warren with more playing time

 

[desertdawg]

Piratedawg says: "Guuuaaarrrdddd, I only have three legs, ggguuaarrddd."

 

[Mainstreet]

Piratedawg says: "Guuuaaarrrdddd, I only have three legs, ggguuaarrddd."

Aye mate. I bet he is much faster than I am.

 

[desertdawg]

Aye mate. I bet he is much faster than I am.

Do you think when Jeff makes sweet lovins to his beautiful wife he is all like:

"Oh guard, yeah baby. That's the spot, oh guard, oh guard"... vinegar face.

As for the Suns, all problems are not black and white, ggguuuaarrddd.

 

[Mainstreet]

Do you think when Jeff makes sweet lovins to his beautiful wife he is all like:

"Oh guard, yeah baby. That's the spot, oh guard, oh guard"... vinegar face.

As for the Suns, all problems are not black and white, ggguuuaarrddd.

Jeff Hornacek is one of my all time favorite Suns players and I've had the chance to meet him in person.

As you know nothing is black and white. As fans we seldom know all the facts.

 

[desertdawg]

Jeff Hornacek is one of my all time favorite Suns players and I've had the chance to meet him in person.

As you know nothing is black and white. As fans we seldom know all the facts.

I'm a Horny fan too, I grew up on the guy. We still have a winning record, and we still have to get all the guys off the team that don't want to be on the team IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm a Horny fan too, I grew up on the guy. We still have a winning record, and we still have to get all the guys off the team that don't want to be on the team IMO.

Isn't that the truth.

 

[95pro]

You may be right but I think the Suns problems are bigger than Plumlee. He can't be on the floor the whole game.

He might be on the floor too long. Theres no doubt Len's length is tough to deal with on both offense and defense. We seen how effective he can be with the PnR, and his mobility and shear length on defense.

 

[desertdawg]

Isn't that the truth.

These guys that want to worry about themselves, instead of buying into what Horny is trying to accomplish, they need to go. It's a plethora of ball handlers, old school Suns run and gun, it's how we roll.

(ggguuuaaaarrrdd)

 

[Mainstreet]

He might be on the floor too long. Theres no doubt Len's length is tough to deal with on both offense and defense. We seen how effective he can be with the PnR, and his mobility and shear length on defense.

The reason I'm not on the Len bandwagon as a starter just yet is because he disappears for periods of time. He still looks lost out there on occasion. I would not be upset in the slightest if Hornacek tried Len as a starter and gave it a try.

 

[Mainstreet]

These guys that want to worry about themselves, instead of buying into what Horny is trying to accomplish, they need to go. It's a plethora of ball handlers, old school Suns run and gun, it's how we roll.

(ggguuuaaaarrrdd)

LOL

 

[BC867]

The reason I'm not on the Len bandwagon as a starter just yet is because he disappears for periods of time. He still looks lost out there on occasion. I would not be upset in the slightest if Hornacek tried Len as a starter and gave it a try.

Plumlee has disappeared, too. He had a chance and has been mediocre. Doesn't Len (no, the Suns) deserve the same chance, considering he has the better potential.

Experience is the best teacher. Let's see how Len progresses facing the opposition's starters.

As I said in another post, early in the season is the best time to try it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Plumlee has disappeared, too. He had a chance and has been mediocre. Doesn't Len (no, the Suns) deserve the same chance, considering he has the better potential.

Experience is the best teacher. Let's see how Len progresses facing the opposition's starters.

As I said in another post, early in the season is the best time to try it.

I'm not opposed to it as I mentioned earlier. Plumlee would probably be a better backup center if Len could start. IMO, the Suns problems are deeper as they do not have a banger that can play inside.