Suns at Pistons 1/22-2011

[devilalum]

The Suns are gonna have a lot of 4th quarter meltdowns like this until they find a way to score when things tighten up down the stretch.

 

[elindholm]

(Nash) also struggled more with his shot. He seems again to be struggling with his shot.

I'm surprised that you are so resistant to using hard data to check whether your anecdotal perceptions are accurate. Nash had a rough-shooting November, but his percentages are on the rise in December and January -- at or above his career averages during that time. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_nash/season_splits.html

And it wasn't exhaustion that caused him problems against LA, it was the absolute mugging by Derek that the refs repeatedly ignored.

Right, and I doubt he'd fare any better against that even if he had played 500 or 1000 fewer minutes to that point in the season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm surprised that you are so resistant to using hard data to check whether your anecdotal perceptions are accurate. Nash had a rough-shooting November, but his percentages are on the rise in December and January -- at or above his career averages during that time.

I noticed you didn't point out that he's shooting well under his average from 3 point distance. He's shooting less than 40% from the 3 point line and it's been over a decade since that happened. But you're right, part of the reason I eschew stats is I don't particularly like them. They have meaning but they don't tell the full story. Right now, on the basis of stats most people would disagree with my point about Nash last season.

As far as many of you are concerned, he had one of his best all around seasons. But tell me why the game threads last season paint such a different picture. The tone regarding Nash was so much more negative than in previous years. Sure, we have the nornal Nash detractors pointing out his every TO and missed shot but IMO it runs deeper than that.

I watched him play (I don't mean that like nobody else watched him play) and I saw a different caliber player than usual on far too many nights. Oftentimes he'd finish these subpar games with 17 points and 12 assists. Which, obviously, makes it difficult for me to point to the stats as evidence.

It's a team game and you can't always define a players value by his individual stats. I think one of the reasons the second squad stood out so well last season was because Nash was less effective in leading the starters. Before someone beats that statement to death, I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near the main reason the bench appeared to play so well.

Right, and I doubt he'd fare any better against that even if he had played 500 or 1000 fewer minutes to that point in the season.

I think he can handle someone like Fisher better if he's healthy and well rested. But, if refs are going to allow someone to manhandle Nash he's definitely going to perform at less than his best.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I noticed you didn't point out that he's shooting well under his average from 3 point distance.

Not over the last two months he isn't. His three-point percentages are .314 in November, .406 in December, and .433 in January. I thought your argument was that playing too many minutes per game was hastening Nash's decline. Why he shot so poorly in November, I can't say, but one thing we know it wasn't was accumulated fatigue over the course of the season. Aren't you at all bothered by the fact that, the more minutes he logs, the better he shoots?

But you're right, part of the reason I eschew stats is I don't particularly like them. They have meaning but they don't tell the full story.

They're much more reliable than subjective impressions.

But tell me why the game threads last season paint such a different picture. The tone regarding Nash was so much more negative than in previous years.

I'm not contending that Nash isn't slowing down. He is. He's playing very well for an almost-37-year-old point guard, but the calendar doesn't lie. I thought we were debating whether he is getting significantly worse over the course of each individual season, not whether he's fallen below the level of his MVP years.

Sure, we have the nornal Nash detractors pointing out his every TO and missed shot but IMO it runs deeper than that.

Yes, it does. Some persist in the belief that Nash's mere presence on the roster commits the Suns to a "system" in which no one defends or has the opportunity to develop their individual offensive games. Those malcontents are much more energetic now that it's clear the Suns are rebuilding. Never mind that the Suns, recently, have probably improved their defense to roughly "average," and that it's painfully evident to anyone watching that, without Nash, they have virtually no offense at all.

I watched him play (I don't mean that like nobody else watched him play) and I saw a different caliber player than usual on far too many nights. Oftentimes he'd finish these subpar games with 17 points and 12 assists. Which, obviously, makes it difficult for me to point to the stats as evidence.

Do you take into account that this is by far the least talented team he's been on in at least ten years?

I think one of the reasons the second squad stood out so well last season was because Nash was less effective in leading the starters.

The effectiveness of that second unit has been mythologized on this board anyway. Yes, sometimes they were great, but other times they were awful, and their default was to be mediocre. I agree that last year's second unit was better than this year's or than any during D'Antoni's tenure, but that's a pretty low standard.

 

[Covert Rain]

His conversion rate is terrible. Very often he drives to the hoop, gets out of control, throws up a wild shot, and pleads for a foul call that doesn't come. I can't tell whether he's getting fouled or not, but he's really not an effective one-on-one option at this point.

I get that but forcing the ball through Nash when he being forced to give up the ball only makes things worse. They were forcing the Suns to reset and shoot late in the clock. Several times it resulted in turnovers on Nash's part.

I think you have to take your chances at the free throw line. Carter's conversion rate might not be great but he seems to get fouled with regularity when going to the hoop. Making him stand on the 3 point line at the end of games is not going to help the Suns. If they want to put a 3 point shooter on the floor to just stand around...they might as well put Pietrus in there in those situations.

 

[BC867]

Oftentimes he'd finish these subpar games with 17 points and 12 assists. Which, obviously, makes it difficult for me to point to the stats as evidence.

That is a good point. But let's take it a step further, looking at Steve the facilitator (Point Guard) vs. Steve the pure shooter (as Point Guard).

Many games, Steve will have scored just a few points going into the second half because he's set up his teammates to score, which is of course his primary job.

Then in the 2nd half, when he is being smothered and turnovers increase or his teammates are shooting bricks (being so heavily a 3-point shooting team), he shoots more, makes more and his points scored go up.

Steve works harder as we become a one-dimensional team and his precision suffers even more. And we have to play catchup . . . which is why I want to see our best Center on the floor at the start of the game.

About to turn 37, Steve's stamina is certainly not as good as it was when he was younger.

Or to put it another way, most of the thread refers to his own stats when playing tired, whereas his value to the team encompasses much more than that -- hanging in on defense and setting up his teammates with pinpoint accuracy in passing and timing, for example.

 

[elindholm]

Carter's conversion rate might not be great but he seems to get fouled with regularity when going to the hoop.

That's not my perception at all. Since joining the Suns, he has had more than 2 FTA in a game only twice, which is almost impossible to believe. I've seen him drive to the hoop plenty, but he doesn't get the calls.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not over the last two months he isn't. His three-point percentages are .314 in November, .406 in December, and .433 in January. I thought your argument was that playing too many minutes per game was hastening Nash's decline. Why he shot so poorly in November, I can't say, but one thing we know it wasn't was accumulated fatigue over the course of the season. Aren't you at all bothered by the fact that, the more minutes he logs, the better he shoots?

No, I think his age is showing a bit this season. I'm concerned that he will start showing the effects of having played too many minutes. Even late last year, following a bad game or two we'd get a break in the schedule and he would typically respond well following the rest. It's not like he plays X amount of minutes and from that point on he's too exhausted to be effective.

They're much more reliable than subjective impressions.

On the whole, I'd agree that statistics are more accurate than personal opinions. But, they don't always reveal the whole story and sometimes "the eye test" will tell you more than just the numbers.

I'm not contending that Nash isn't slowing down. He is. He's playing very well for an almost-37-year-old point guard, but the calendar doesn't lie. I thought we were debating whether he is getting significantly worse over the course of each individual season, not whether he's fallen below the level of his MVP years.

I think he got significantly worse over the course of LAST season. I don't necessarily believe that's occurred in prior seasons and I'm not sure it's happened yet this season.

Yes, it does. Some persist in the belief that Nash's mere presence on the roster commits the Suns to a "system" in which no one defends or has the opportunity to develop their individual offensive games. Those malcontents are much more energetic now that it's clear the Suns are rebuilding. Never mind that the Suns, recently, have probably improved their defense to roughly "average," and that it's painfully evident to anyone watching that, without Nash, they have virtually no offense at all.

It's painfully obvious to me that without Nash we have no offense and occasionally even with Nash we have no offense.

Do you take into account that this is by far the least talented team he's been on in at least ten years?

Again, most of my comments on this subject are projecting what might happen this year based on what I maintain did happen last year. On this year's team, if we were forced to play everyday without Nash, I'm not sure we'd win another game this season.

The effectiveness of that second unit has been mythologized on this board anyway. Yes, sometimes they were great, but other times they were awful, and their default was to be mediocre. I agree that last year's second unit was better than this year's or than any during D'Antoni's tenure, but that's a pretty low standard.

The second unit got us back into a lot of games last season, more than I can ever remember happening before in Phoenix. The flip-side of this equation is that the starters had to have put us into that position in the first place. And this occurred despite a strong year from Jason and a second half of the season performance by Amare that was stellar.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

That's not my perception at all. Since joining the Suns, he has had more than 2 FTA in a game only twice, which is almost impossible to believe. I've seen him drive to the hoop plenty, but he doesn't get the calls.

That is true since joining the Suns but he was getting their more often prior to the trade. My guess is that Orlando was not regulating him to standing on the 3 point line when the offense was stagnet.

We went through this exact same thing with JRich until the Suns starting calling specific plays with him to get him involved. I think this is JRich right after the trade all over again.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That is a good point. But let's take it a step further, looking at Steve the facilitator (Point Guard) vs. Steve the pure shooter (as Point Guard).

Many games, Steve will have scored just a few points going into the second half because he's set up his teammates to score, which is of course his primary job.

Then in the 2nd half, when he is being smothered and turnovers increase or his teammates are shooting bricks (being so heavily a 3-point shooting team), he shoots more, makes more and his points scored go up.

Steve works harder as we become a one-dimensional team and his precision suffers even more. And we have to play catchup . . . which is why I want to see our best Center on the floor at the start of the game.

About to turn 37, Steve's stamina is certainly not as good as it was when he was younger.

Or to put it another way, most of the thread refers to his own stats when playing tired, whereas his value to the team encompasses much more than that -- hanging in on defense and setting up his teammates with pinpoint accuracy in passing and timing, for example.

Agreed, except for the bolded part. If I were all that concerned with our day to day games I'd be irate that Lopez is starting over Gortat. However, I'm really only looking at what these players might be able to provide us in the long run. In that regard, I'm not concerned if Gentry feels that the best way to develop Robin is to give him the starter position while giving Marcin the starter minutes.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Agreed, except for the bolded part. If I were all that concerned with our day to day games I'd be irate that Lopez is starting over Gortat. However, I'm really only looking at what these players might be able to provide us in the long run. In that regard, I'm not concerned if Gentry feels that the best way to develop Robin is to give him the starter position while giving Marcin the starter minutes.

Steve

Gortat is on the verge of his prime. It's not like Gortat is 36 and at the end of his career. Also, the Suns have stated several times they are not the type of team to build through the draft and years of being average. So my guess is that the team will make moves over the next couple years to complete now. So your "now" center is not Lopez.

Also, what in Lopez says that he will be anything in the long run? Look up starting Centers who went on to make big contributions to their repspective teams. Those Centers showed a bunch more by this time in their careers then Lopez. Lopez is horrible.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Gortat is on the verge of his prime. It's not like Gortat is 36 and at the end of his career. Also, the Suns have stated several times they are not the type of team to build through the draft and years of being average. So my guess is that the team will make moves over the next couple years to complete now. So your "now" center is not Lopez.

Also, what in Lopez says that he will be anything in the long run? Look up starting Centers who went on to make big contributions to their repspective teams. Those Centers showed a bunch more by this time in their careers then Lopez. Lopez is horrible.

I'm not making a case for Robin to start. I don't think he's ever going to be worth much and I think Gortat is a much better player. However, I think this season is a write-off and if Gentry believes this is the best way to try and build Robin into something of value then I'm fine with it. I don't know that he's right but if Lopez can become a slightly better than average backup center than I'm willing to put up with whatever happens this year. I'd love to see us with a decent starting center AND a decent backup center. That's a luxury we have never really had.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not making a case for Robin to start. I don't think he's ever going to be worth much and I think Gortat is a much better player. However, I think this season is a write-off and if Gentry believes this is the best way to try and build Robin into something of value then I'm fine with it. I don't know that he's right but if Lopez can become a slightly better than average backup center than I'm willing to put up with whatever happens this year. I'd love to see us with a decent starting center AND a decent backup center. That's a luxury we have never really had.

Steve

I think Gentry and the front office are determined to prove that drafting Lopez was not a mistake by drafting him so high. It would be one thing if the organization was just starting Robin to make a final determination on "is this our guy of the future" for a period of time. However, that is not what the Suns are saying. Mabye they just don't want to say that in public.

If that is the case, then OK. However, if Lopez is our starting Center by the end of the season, I am going to be a front runner on the fire Gentry and the Front office bandwagon.

Lopez is no starter.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think Gentry and the front office are determined to prove that drafting Lopez was not a mistake by drafting him so high. It would be one thing if the organization was just starting Robin to make a final determination on "is this our guy of the future" for a period of time. However, that is not what the Suns are saying. Mabye they just don't want to say that in public.

If that is the case, then OK. However, if Lopez is our starting Center by the end of the season, I am going to be a front runner on the fire Gentry and the Front office bandwagon.

Lopez is no starter.

Right now, Lopez is no basketball player. Seriously, if you based it on what he's shown this season he wouldn't be getting any minutes at all let alone a starter spot. You could be right about their motivation, I really don't know.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

How can Nash live through this pathetic team that lost to the Clippers, 76ers, Kings & now the sorry a** Pistons?!

He's our only player that can create offense by himself. This was proved yesterday. They trapped him and every other Suns player choked.

Without him we'll be LAST in offense and LAST in defense. Aka we'll be the Cavs.

But I still dont want him to look like a loser on this team. Sarver needs to grow some balls and say "Nash is too good for us, we'll trade him for picks or good young players."

 

[BC867]

I think this season is a write-off and if Gentry believes this is the best way to try and build Robin into something of value then I'm fine with it.

Steve, I referred to the problem with Lopez starting (in these preceding posts about Nash and his endurance) because when we fall behind early (due, in part, to our starting Center being out-rebounded by Nash and just about everyone else), Steve has to play longer and harder to play catch-up.

The Suns start off strong (with Gortat pulling down boards from the start of the game), Steve plays less minutes game after game.

At this point, and anytime, being able to rest Steve is much more important than trying to build Robin into something of value. It's a question of priorities.

Especially in basketball where the players roam the court, up and down, and are so interdependent on each other.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, I referred to the problem with Lopez starting (in these preceding posts about Nash and his endurance) because when we fall behind early (due, in part, to our starting Center being out-rebounded by Nash and just about everyone else), Steve has to play longer and harder to play catch-up.

The Suns start off strong (with Gortat pulling down boards from the start of the game), Steve plays less minutes game after game.

At this point, and anytime, being able to rest Steve is much more important than trying to build Robin into something of value. It's a question of priorities.

Especially in basketball where the players roam the court, up and down, and are so interdependent on each other.

Makes sense. However, if coming off the bench reduces Robin's effectiveness (scary thought) than we've just traded one problem for another. Especially if Warrick returns to December form (where he stopped giving any effort whatsoever on defense) as we'd be forced to play Gortat and Frye pretty much the whole game. All in all, I think I'd start Gortat regardless but that's because I have so little hope for Lopez.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Steve, I referred to the problem with Lopez starting (in these preceding posts about Nash and his endurance) because when we fall behind early (due, in part, to our starting Center being out-rebounded by Nash and just about everyone else), Steve has to play longer and harder to play catch-up.

The Suns start off strong (with Gortat pulling down boards from the start of the game), Steve plays less minutes game after game.

At this point, and anytime, being able to rest Steve is much more important than trying to build Robin into something of value. It's a question of priorities.

Especially in basketball where the players roam the court, up and down, and are so interdependent on each other.

So you're blaming slow starts on rebounding. Hmmm. Don't you think if we actually made shots we'd have better starts?

I know you hate Lopez, but blaming his lack of rebounding for our starting out slow is ridiculous. If there are that many rebounds available, then we don't deserve to be winning.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So you're blaming slow starts on rebounding. Hmmm. Don't you think if we actually made shots we'd have better starts?

I know you hate Lopez, but blaming his lack of rebounding for our starting out slow is ridiculous. If there are that many rebounds available, then we don't deserve to be winning.

I don't know about rebounding but I do think Robin's inconsistent defense hurts us early in the game. Not necessarily last night though. I don't read too much into the Detroit game. We consistently struggle on the trail end of a back to back and the referees looked like they wanted to be anywhere but stuck in Detroit calling fouls.

If I were the coach, knowing what little I know about the situation, Gortat would definitely be starting. But I'm comfortable with the way Gentry is handling it because I'm willing to believe he's doing it for a legitimate reason.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

So you're blaming slow starts on rebounding. Hmmm. Don't you think if we actually made shots we'd have better starts?

I know you hate Lopez, but blaming his lack of rebounding for our starting out slow is ridiculous. If there are that many rebounds available, then we don't deserve to be winning.

I don't think you can blame his individual rebounding but you can certainly partially blame the games where the Suns after the 1st quarter are trailing in points and rebounding as a team.

 

[sunsfan88]

I remember when I used to hope for Lopez to NOT get injured. Now its the other way around.

 

[BC867]

I know you hate Lopez ...

If by "hate Lopez", you mean that I am not happy with my team starting a Center who is good for a few baskets at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters, but deficient in both rebounding and defense . . .

Which causes us to play from behind the rest of the game . . .

Which results in Nash having to play too many minutes every game . . .

that is true!

As I said in a previous post:

At this point, and anytime, being able to rest Steve is much more important than trying to build Robin into something of value. It's a question of priorities.

Would anyone disagree that Steve's endurance is much more important to the Suns than Robin's hurt feelings at being relegated to backup Center?

 

[sunsfan88]

^^^I agree with you about Lopez but dont you think without Gortat off the bench, our bench would be even worse than it already is?

IMO trade Lopez for a servicable backup big man and we'll be set at the center position.

 

[JCSunsfan]

^^^I agree with you about Lopez but dont you think without Gortat off the bench, our bench would be even worse than it already is?

IMO trade Lopez for a servicable backup big man and we'll be set at the center position.

If Lopez is as bad as that, why would anyone make that trade?

 

[AzStevenCal]

If Lopez is as bad as that, why would anyone make that trade?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I've decided to count to 10 every time I feel like saying something snide. I agree with you. I think we'd be hard pressed to find a suitor for Robin unless and until he starts to show something (positive) on the court.

Steve