Suns at Pistons 1/22-2011

[BC867]

^^^I agree with you about Lopez but dont you think without Gortat off the bench, our bench would be even worse than it already is?

Even though a game could be won or lost anytime during the 48 minutes, I would say that (a) finishing strong, (b) starting the game strong and (c) starting the 3rd quarter strong are the most important times, in that order.

Lopez is currently part of two of the three.

At least if he comes off the bench, he could be used when the Coach thinks it is best . . . or if Gortat were to get in foul trouble. Or, if we are playing a team with a smaller front line, in which case Frye could slide over to backup Center. It puts it more in the hands of Gentry.

A starting lineup should remain intact, for best results, and a substitution pattern should be consistent . . . but a Coach should have the ability to make good things happen or react to bad things when necessary as well.

Along those lines, we would ideally also have a point-per-minute Wing to come in for short spurts, but not part of the regular 8- or 9-man rotation. A specialist, such as the Brazilian Blur was before he was penciled in as the backup Point Guard.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Even though a game could be won or lost anytime during the 48 minutes, I would say that (a) finishing strong, (b) starting the game strong and (c) starting the 3rd quarter strong are the most important times, in that order.

Lopez is currently part of two of the three.

At least if he comes off the bench, he could be used when the Coach thinks it is best . . . or if Gortat were to get in foul trouble. Or, if we are playing a team with a smaller front line, in which case Frye could slide over to backup Center. It puts it more in the hands of Gentry.

A starting lineup should remain intact, for best results, and a substitution pattern should be consistent . . . but a Coach should have the ability to make good things happen or react to bad things when necessary as well.

Along those lines, we would ideally also have a point-per-minute Wing to come in for short spurts, but not part of the regular 8- or 9-man rotation. A specialist, such as the Brazilian Blur was before he was penciled in as the backup Point Guard.

This is the NBA. I don't think starting the game strong is all that important. Maybe it's like in baseball where it always seems that the guy who makes a great play in the field leads off the next inning (or any of the other "seems like's that announcers always mention) but it seems like to me that just about every strong start comes with a letdown/comeback. We may do this even moreso than the average team but it happens pretty regularly across the league.

Watching the Bulls play during their best years, it seemed to me that the one thing they did that made them so unbeatable was that they always closed out quarters strong. I don't know if research will support my opinion but I'd have to rate that as the most important period of each game.

Also, I just don't think that the first few minutes that Lopez plays has had all that much bearing on the outcome. Have we really lost a lot of games that Lopez started where we got behind big at the start of the game (or 3rd quarter) and failed to ever get back into the game? That just doesn't seem to be the case to me.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Have we really lost a lot of games that Lopez started where we got behind big at the start of the game (or 3rd quarter) and failed to ever get back into the game? That just doesn't seem to be the case to me.

But my point wasn't about winning the game with Lopez starting. It was how we have to win the game. Specifically about how many minutes Steve has to play when we fall behind.

And, thinking about it, how the opponents can rest their starters for the end of the game (if needed) when they have the lead. Or be content with trading baskets. Or field a group that is more defensive minded, which takes less precision.

Playing catch-up right from the start takes its toll on the whole team . . . especially the players who happen to be our two oldest -- Nash and Hill. In fact, with the inconsistent offense of Carter, we can even say our three oldest players.

One more thought. This applies even more to playing .500-or-better teams than our recent winning streak vs. below-.500 teams. Or even losing to one of them -- Detroit -- by one point when we arrive in town in the morning to play a back-to-back that night, which describes our most recent game, which we lost, scoring only 74 points.

All it takes is a Center who is not doing his job from the start of the game to affect, not only the physical demands to catch up, but the state of mind of the rest of the team.

In a newpaper or online story, after the headline, the opening and closing paragraphs are considered to be the two most important. The starting lineup is our headline. How we start the game and how we finish are our opening and closing paragraphs.

 

[Chaplin]

But my point wasn't about winning the game with Lopez starting. It was how we have to win the game. Specifically about how many minutes Steve has to play when we fall behind.

And, thinking about it, how the opponents can rest their starters for the end of the game (if needed) when they have the lead. Or be content with trading baskets. Or field a group that is more defensive minded, which takes less precision.

Playing catch-up right from the start takes its toll on the whole team . . . especially the players who happen to be our two oldest -- Nash and Hill. In fact, with the inconsistent offense of Carter, we can even say our three oldest players.

One more thought. This applies even more to playing .500-or-better teams than our recent winning streak vs. below-.500 teams. Or even losing to one of them -- Detroit -- by one point when we arrive in town in the morning to play a back-to-back that night, which describes our most recent game, which we lost, scoring only 74 points.

All it takes is a Center who is not doing his job from the start of the game to affect, not only the physical demands to catch up, but the state of mind of the rest of the team.

In a newpaper or online story, after the headline, the opening and closing paragraphs are considered the two most important. So it seems to be on the court in the NBA.

I think you're taking a single pretty minor aspect of the overall game and expanding it to be much bigger than it really is.

 

[BC867]

I think you're taking a single pretty minor aspect of the overall game and expanding it to be much bigger than it really is.

How many minutes Steve Nash has to play may be a single aspect, but it sure isn't minor. It is the key to our climbing back.

 

[desertdawg]

So Gortat > Lopez would be a more ideal starter and help take minutes off of Nash's games with the team starting off better (in theory)? But then the bench might start to really struggle again? Ouch, I wish Lopez would just start playing ball. I really thought/hoped Gortat coming over would get floppin Robin motivated and agressive. Double Meh.

 

[BC867]

So Gortat > Lopez would be a more ideal starter and help take minutes off of Nash's games with the team starting off better (in theory)? But then the bench might start to really struggle again?

Generally, of course. But with Gortat getting the starter minutes and Lopez the bench minutes anyway, isn't it more a question of when Gortat plays?

I just feel that the spirits of the rest of the team will be higher if we maximize Nash and Gortat's minutes together and don't find ourselves playing catch-up right from the start.

We're not a great team. We are going to be lacking sometime. I just think it would be best to field our best player at each position right from the start for psychological purposes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How many minutes Steve Nash has to play may be a single aspect, but it sure isn't minor. It is the key to our climbing back.

I think you're trying to draw a line between two events that may not be related.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

How many minutes Steve Nash has to play may be a single aspect, but it sure isn't minor. It is the key to our climbing back.

You're using Robin Lopez starting as basis for whether Nash plays too many minutes! Yes, Robin Lopez starting is a minor issue.

 

[Chaplin]

I think you're trying to draw a line between two events that may not be related.

Steve

Bingo. And even if they are related, its is by a minuscule amount. I'd say there are plenty of other issues related to his minutes that are much more important than Robin Lopez starting. Dragic's play, the ability of Vince Carter to score, Nash's willingness to score, how the pick and roll is defended, who he actually guards on the defensive end... ALL of those things are more important than whether Lopez starts or not.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bingo. And even if they are related, its is by a minuscule amount. I'd say there are plenty of other issues related to his minutes that are much more important than Robin Lopez starting. Dragic's play, the ability of Vince Carter to score, Nash's willingness to score, how the pick and roll is defended, who he actually guards on the defensive end... ALL of those things are more important than whether Lopez starts or not.

I disagree. If starting an inferior player in the starting lineup was so "minor" more teams in the NBA would do it. It's a big deal because it allows the other team to score in the paint too often. It also usually puts the Suns behind when it comes to boards.

The Suns play from behind ALOT after the first few minutes of the 1st. Playing from behind changes your game plan, substitution patterns and what you do in the game. I noticed that when the Suns fall too far behind Gentry almost always reverts to small ball with Frye at center. Nothing about that says "minor".

 

[Chaplin]

I disagree. If starting an inferior player in the starting lineup was so "minor" more teams in the NBA would do it. It's a big deal because it allows the other team to score in the paint too often. It also usually puts the Suns behind when it comes to boards.

The Suns play from behind ALOT after the first few minutes of the 1st. Playing from behind changes your game plan, substitution patterns and what you do in the game. I noticed that when the Suns fall too far behind Gentry almost always reverts to small ball with Frye at center. Nothing about that says "minor".

And I disagree. You are blaming falling behind primarily on starting Robin Lopez. That makes no sense at all. Even if he gets yanked after 5 minutes, it's not like we're down 20 and he's the reason.

 

[Covert Rain]

And I disagree. You are blaming falling behind primarily on starting Robin Lopez. That makes no sense at all. Even if he gets yanked after 5 minutes, it's not like we're down 20 and he's the reason.

Chap, I agree it's not entirely his fault. This team has more problems then Lopez for sure. However, it would be very short sided to think that starting a guy who is suppose to anchor the paint and currently ranks at the bottom or near (among starting centers) in rebounding, total defense and efficiency isn't a major factor in the Suns starting almost every game in the hole.

Having a guy in the starting lineup that is currently ranked at the bottom for his respective position among all NBA players in your starting lineup (regardless of position) would impact the best team in the NBA.

If it's no big deal and not a major factor why isn't that the "norm" in the NBA?

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, I agree it's not entirely his fault. This team has more problems then Lopez for sure. However, it would be very short sided to think that starting a guy who is suppose to anchor the paint and currently ranks at the bottom or near (among starting centers) in rebounding, total defense and efficiency isn't a major factor in the Suns starting almost every game in the hole.

Having a guy in the starting lineup that is currently ranked at the bottom for his respective position among all NBA players in your starting lineup (regardless of position) would impact the best team in the NBA.

If it's no big deal and not a major factor why isn't that the "norm" in the NBA?

Because other teams can afford it. We can't.

The naysayers like BC want us to be like every other team in the NBA. Unfortunately, we can't, because of a) personnel, and b) style of play. What you see is what you get with this team, and if we have no rebounders off the bench, that will hurt us. Badly. Think about it--if Gortat starts, our best rebounder off the bench is Jared Dudley. Yuck.

Plus, who would you rather pick up 2 or 3 quick fouls at the start of the game? Lopez or Gortat?

 

[BC867]

The naysayers like BC...

Great debate tactic, but it doesn't solve the problem.

BTW, Lopez got off to a good start on paper vs. the Sixers tonight . . . but he was outscored by his opposing Center while he was in and I wouldn't put too much stock in his four rebounds.

Each one pretty much fell into his hands. 'Good for positioning. But doesn't address out-muscling an opponent. I'll call tonight's few minutes a draw. If Lopez can improve steadily, that would be great!

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree. If starting an inferior player in the starting lineup was so "minor" more teams in the NBA would do it. It's a big deal because it allows the other team to score in the paint too often. It also usually puts the Suns behind when it comes to boards.

The Suns play from behind ALOT after the first few minutes of the 1st. Playing from behind changes your game plan, substitution patterns and what you do in the game. I noticed that when the Suns fall too far behind Gentry almost always reverts to small ball with Frye at center. Nothing about that says "minor".

I don't really disagree with you, I'm just not convinced that the point in the game where Robin logs his measly minutes determines how many minutes Nash plays. I think Robin hurts us more than he helps us and if we're just talking about doing what's best for the team at this moment I'd leave his butt on the bench the entire game. However, if we feel we have to play him, perhaps hiding him near the starters isn't such a bad thing. Especially if there is a remote chance it might rebuild his confidence and his game.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Great debate tactic, but it doesn't solve the problem.

BTW, Lopez got off to a good start on paper vs. the Sixers tonight . . . but he was outscored by his opposing Center while he was in and I wouldn't put too much stock in his four rebounds.

Each one pretty much fell into his hands. 'Good for positioning. But doesn't address out-muscling an opponent. I'll call tonight's few minutes a draw. If Lopez can improve steadily, that would be great!

You never stop, do you?

We weren't losing this game until after he went to the bench, so your big "Lopez starting is the problem" theory doesn't hold.