You have completely missed the point, but that's ok. I myself never said it's "on" Ayton. It contributed certainly. His lackadasical play was throughout each of these past few games. How is that not a concern? And it's not about "specifically" 12 or 16 or 20 rebounds. It's about the effort to get rebounds. He should have had more effort last night, no question. And that would have increased his rebounding total. It just would have.
Tell me, who hasn't brought up everyone else needing to be better at rebounding? It certainly wasn't me. Ayton is supposed to be an elite rebounder -- Torrey Craig isn't. Jae Crowder isn't. Mikal Bridges isn't. The problem isn't that Ayton specifically didn't get 12 rebounds, the problem is that frequently he didn't even seem to try to get them. THAT'S the problem.
The issue is this game didn’t happen in a vacuum. Ayton’s rebounding has been an issue now for the better part of two months. To the point that you have been betting against him covering the over under of 10... and then getting attacked for doing so by the usual suspects.
I never said he didn't contribute to the loss. However, the difference in that game wasn't 4 rebounds by him. It was a team effort on the boards that led to that loss and yet many on this board were focusing on Ayton. He could have had 12 rebounds and they are still losing that game.
What is your definition of elite? Because being high ten (his career average) makes him elite. 12 would make him all time. However, you and I seem to be saying the same thing. It's not the number necessarily but the timing and consistently of grabbing those boards. If so, that is fair. That goes for every effort. If someone scores 20 in the first and does nothing for the rest of the game that's an issue. If Ayton grabs 8 in the first half and zero for the second that's an issue. Ayton wouldn't have said squat if he hit his average that game. That's pretty normal. You wouldn't want a player to say anything else. Also, I don't equate lack of consistency always with effort but that can be a reason.
His rebounding is two fold too. When he is putting in effort on the boards he gets more rebounds and makes it easier for other guys to rebound because they aren’t contending with the other team’s big men.
| Comment: | Crowder (PHX) turns into Middleton's (MIL) path and initiates body contact during the drive. The contact occurs prior to Middleton's off-arm moving toward Crowder thereafter. |
Agreed. At least, no one else with the necessary gravitas to grab everyone’s attention the way he can, and does.
Agreed. I didn’t get sitting on that one.
First, your arguments about career averages are poor. You want to compare those all time greats look at their rebounding averages during the first years that they averaged 30+ minutes. That’s apples to apples. Factoring in end-of-career seasons or rookie season in which they received limited minutes is disingenuous.
I suppose that’s fair
Without passing judgement on the legitimacy of these anti-player comments I would say that Ayton takes the most abuse here but he's very closely followed by Shamet, Bridges and then Booker. The idea you think Mikal is off limits for criticism really suggests you have eyes only for Ayton (or for comments about Ayton). Bridges has been ripped considerably this season.
Bridges was definitely getting criticism the first half of the season for only playing on one side of the court before the light went on for him during that 15 game stretch. He’s been a little hit or miss on O since CP3 has been out, but the entire team is adjusting to multiple things, especially with Book out too.
David only averaged 12 or more 4 times. After that right around Ayton's numbers. Shaq 5 times, Tim 5 times. As I stated Ayton isn't as good or stronger than any of those players. So why would I expect him to do better or even the same? All of these players averages are impacted by early and late stages of their careers. As I already stated and will state again I am not saying he is as good as any of those players. in other words, I am not directly trying to compare them to Ayton because I don't think Ayton is on the same level. So to have those expectations to put up similar numbers is dumb. Ayton is obviously has a long way to go. I brought those others players up as a baseline for players at the next level. Players he isn't as good as right now. Also, if you don't think any of those players had bad stretches in their careers you are kidding yourself.
ALL of those guys were dominant defensive players. Ayton ain’t close to Duncan, Robinson or prime Shaq as a total monster on D.
That first part is exactly what I am saying. He isn't close to those players so people shouldn't have that level of expectation out of him. He is likely going to be a 16-18/10-10.5 guy his entire career unless he becomes more of a primary option offensively. He could get to 20 PPG. He .8 below his career reb average which I said as well. I think that is partly because when he isn't being consistent, they are yanking him for McGee and sometimes Biyombo who are grabbing boards that Ayton previously would have had a chance to be in there to do. Monty has a shorter hook knowing those guys are behind Ayton. I had hoped when we drafted him he could become a 25/12 type player but 4 years later I don't see that happening. I am not sure he will ever be consistent enough to get there. He might just be one of those guys that can't turn it on at another level until the playoffs.
That is still a possibility but I am going to hold to my original thought on that. I said by end of this year we will know what we have in Ayton. Not to say he can't slightly improve here or there but I didn't see after year 4 him getting significantly better in any one area.
The fact that your posting and arguing about this is actually proof that you’re not waiting until the end of the season.
