Suns @ Bulls game thread 11-28-17

[Carolinacacti]

I really have to wonder why the Suns have Anthony Bennett on NAZ when Josh Jackson could sure use the work.
http://northernarizona.gleague.nba.com/
Bennett with 23 points. Alex Peters should take Chriss place on the roster and Send his ass down.

 

[BC867]

At the close of his four year rookie deal he couldn't get a multi year offer from anyone... I'd say it makes him a bust. Sometimes a bust can recover their career, but they were still a draft bust if that is how things played out for the team that took them.

And while his effort is certainly better, leading to less games where he is invisible, he is still an atrocious team defender who constantly is in the wrong position and, according to this Zach Lowe article, the worst player in the entire league on post up opportunities.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...-things-like-including-houston-chris-paul-nba

Despite the big statistical nights he has had I still would not consider offering Len a multi-year deal. IMO he is still essentially a net negative for the team and that he only finally started to show some hustle when he career was on a fast track for the euroleague makes me really weary that he'd return to his old "invisible man" habits if he had a long term deal.

I agree. Everything from Len's history makes it clear that we can't expect him to be jumping as high for rebounds next year.

As I've watched him go up like a powerhouse recently, I ask myself, "Who is that?" "Oh, it's Len's 'contract year'.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree. Everything from Len's history makes it clear that we can't expect him to be jumping as high for rebounds next year.

As I've watched him go up like a powerhouse recently, I ask myself, "Who is that?" "Oh, it's Len's 'contract year'.

I'd still like the Suns to keep Len at the right price.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'd still like the Suns to keep Len at the right price.

No chance. He is an ufa. He is going elsewhere. If he underachieves, the Suns won't want him. If he achieves, he won't want them.

 

[Hoop Head]

I really have to wonder why the Suns have Anthony Bennett on NAZ when Josh Jackson could sure use the work.
http://northernarizona.gleague.nba.com/
Bennett with 23 points. Alex Peters should take Chriss place on the roster and Send his ass down.

Bennett isn't tied to the Suns, they could send Jackson down on assignment if they wanted to but they haven't.

 

[3rdside]

No chance. He is an ufa. He is going elsewhere. If he underachieves, the Suns won't want him. If he achieves, he won't want them.

I fully expect him to move on and break out; it’s what we’re best at - unidentifying talent and letting it walk.



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[Phrazbit]

I'd still like the Suns to keep Len at the right price.

What is the right price? I'd give him 15 mil... 3 year deal, but obviously he'd never accept it. Anything more and I suspect he'd go back to being invisible... and even the "productive" Alex Len of this year we're surrendering more points and scoring less when he is on the court vs when he is off it.

I fully expect him to move on and break out; it’s what we’re best at - unidentifying talent and letting it walk.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd bet my balls it does not happen. Len is not made for the modern NBA. Barring rule changes that bring the league back to where it was 20 years ago (which I'm sure the league has no interest in) Len will struggle to find minutes on any competitive team. He is a putrid offensive player and has terrible defensive instincts... and is slow. In the grind it out NBA of the late 90s early 2000s, he would be a solid center, he could be glued to some similarly unskilled player all night and worry about nothing but the paint, in the modern NBA, even on nights where he hauls in a ton rebounds, he is probably doing more damage than good given how terrible he is offensively and his inability to defend away from the rim.

 

[3rdside]

What is the right price? I'd give him 15 mil... 3 year deal, but obviously he'd never accept it. Anything more and I suspect he'd go back to being invisible... and even the "productive" Alex Len of this year we're surrendering more points and scoring less when he is on the court vs when he is off it.


I'd bet my balls it does not happen. Len is not made for the modern NBA. Barring rule changes that bring the league back to where it was 20 years ago (which I'm sure the league has no interest in) Len will struggle to find minutes on any competitive team. He is a putrid offensive player and has terrible defensive instincts... and is slow. In the grind it out NBA of the late 90s early 2000s, he would be a solid center, he could be glued to some similarly unskilled player all night and worry about nothing but the paint, in the modern NBA, even on nights where he hauls in a ton rebounds, he is probably doing more damage than good given how terrible he is offensively and his inability to defend away from the rim.

It was more a shot at the suns than Alex Len, so serviceable rather than break out would have been a better way of putting it... but I hear you all the same, Lumbering Len is looking a bit late to the NBA party.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What is the right price? I'd give him 15 mil... 3 year deal, but obviously he'd never accept it. Anything more and I suspect he'd go back to being invisible... and even the "productive" Alex Len of this year we're surrendering more points and scoring less when he is on the court vs when he is off it.


I'd bet my balls it does not happen. Len is not made for the modern NBA. Barring rule changes that bring the league back to where it was 20 years ago (which I'm sure the league has no interest in) Len will struggle to find minutes on any competitive team. He is a putrid offensive player and has terrible defensive instincts... and is slow. In the grind it out NBA of the late 90s early 2000s, he would be a solid center, he could be glued to some similarly unskilled player all night and worry about nothing but the paint, in the modern NBA, even on nights where he hauls in a ton rebounds, he is probably doing more damage than good given how terrible he is offensively and his inability to defend away from the rim.

Wow. Len is a lot better than that.

 

[Mainstreet]

What is the right price? I'd give him 15 mil... 3 year deal, but obviously he'd never accept it. Anything more and I suspect he'd go back to being invisible... and even the "productive" Alex Len of this year we're surrendering more points and scoring less when he is on the court vs when he is off it.

I think giving Len $15 million over three seasons is fair although I might bump it up to 20 million. I'm not sure other NBA teams are going to offer him this much. If he wants more, the Suns should let him walk.

 

[Mainstreet]

No chance. He is an ufa. He is going elsewhere. If he underachieves, the Suns won't want him. If he achieves, he won't want them.

I won't be heart broken if Len walks.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think giving Len $15 million over three seasons is fair although I might bump it up to 20 million. I'm not sure other NBA teams are going to offer him this much. If he wants more, the Suns should let him walk.

I agree with this, 20 million for 3 years is fair. It's what Big Sauce got. The only way I'd go any higher is an team option 4th year for around $8 million.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree with this, 20 million for 3 years is fair. It's what Big Sauce got. The only way I'd go any higher is an team option 4th year for around $8 million.

I fully believe the Suns probably had an offer like that on the table, and he chose not to take it. But that is total speculation on my part.

 

[Carolinacacti]

When is Reed coming back? Len is not the problem. Suns need someone at the point that can guard.

 

[Hoop Head]

I fully believe the Suns probably had an offer like that on the table, and he chose not to take it. But that is total speculation on my part.

I think they did also, I know everytime I said something about it though someone would chirp off about how the only offer that was made was the qualifying offer. Of course that was the only public offer but it just doesn't make sense they didn't try to negotiate a longer deal for him. Len thought he was worth more though. He might have taken that if it'd been more than what Williams got but getting a deal similar to Williams he perceived as an insult or below his market value. It doesn't matter now what he was offered though, what matters is what the team might offer going forward and if it's anything over 25 million for 4 years it's too much. I could live with anything below that, anything higher needs a team option for the 4th year but shouldn't exceed 30 million in it's total value, including the option.

 

[Hoop Head]

When is Reed coming back? Len is not the problem. Suns need someone at the point that can guard.

Reed should return by late January or early February. He's not a point guard though. He'll take some of Daniels minutes, which isn't a bad thing, but he could force Daniels to PG and reduce James playing time. We'll see what happens but I'm looking forward to Reed's arrival.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Len had another offer on the table as well probably some similar to Alan Williams. Maybe the Suns up their offer in free agency.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't know if Len will be resigned or if he'll seek a deal elsewhere but any deal for Len should have team options and incentives to protect the Suns and also to keep Len playing consistent. He's played well this year but it's a contract year and I'm leery of any player who steps it up in situations like that. However it's the end of his rookie contract and everyone knew it would take a few years for him to develop, so he could just finally be reaching his potential. I still wouldn't offer anymore than a 3 year deal starting at $7 million but they could offer incentives to bring up the annual amount and a 4th year on a team option. Teams can add incentives that equal up to 15% of their base salary, so if Len was offered a base salary of $7 million to start the contract on a 3 year deal, with annual raises of 8% which is allowed for a player resigning with his team, that would equal $22,724,800 over 3 years, which seems fair. If he hit all incentives though it could reach up to $26,133,520.

I don't believe incentives are factored into the annual raises, so if he hit them the 8% increase comes from the base salary instead of the total paid salary. That could change things a bit if they came from the total after incentives though but it would be in his favor, as well as the teams since he'd be playing really well. If that 8% increase came after the annual total with incentives he could make $30,465,740 over the 3 years. That should be plenty enough for him to stay consistent, it's almost $8 million over the 3 years. Here is a link to see info on incentives from the CBA FAQ, it's question #74. However it wasn't quite clear on the annual increases coming from the base salary or incentive salary. The amount that counts against the cap is the base salary with the only incentives being added to that being those that are deemed likely, which typically is if there is an improvement over the year before. Like if he was offered incentives based on averaging 10 rebounds a game it would be unlikely if he only averaged 9 the year before, if it was based on averaging 9 rebounds then it would be deemed likely since he averaged that the year before which means the amount of that bonus would count against the cap. That is figured annually if it will be likely or unlikely to see if it goes against the cap.

 

[Phrazbit]

It has gone in circles before but this idea that Len had a multi year offer flies in the face of literally every single thing we heard. There was never a single peep about the Suns trying to extend him at any point and they PUBLICLY stated that it was up to Len and his agent if they wanted to sign the QO, no team makes that sort of dare if there was something larger on the table.

It is all he got and it is all he had shown himself to be worthy of. Len was our 2nd worst player last year, behind only Knight.

Wow. Len is a lot better than that.

I know our evaluations of him are really far apart... but why? My critiques of Len are based on a ton of statistical evidence, including this year. Len is solid on the glass, at every other aspect of the game he is somewhere between "bad" and "putrid". And on top of all the bad statistical data he is a player from a bygone era. Good teams don't use plodding centers who cannot function outside the paint and Len isn't even a good version of that type of player.

As for what I'd offer him this summer... if we're still worse on offense and defense when Len is on the court (which is still the case so far this year) then I wouldn't offer him a contract at all.

 

[pokerface]

I don't know if Len will be resigned or if he'll seek a deal elsewhere but any deal for Len should have team options and incentives to protect the Suns and also to keep Len playing consistent. He's played well this year but it's a contract year and I'm leery of any player who steps it up in situations like that. However it's the end of his rookie contract and everyone knew it would take a few years for him to develop, so he could just finally be reaching his potential. I still wouldn't offer anymore than a 3 year deal starting at $7 million but they could offer incentives to bring up the annual amount and a 4th year on a team option. Teams can add incentives that equal up to 15% of their base salary, so if Len was offered a base salary of $7 million to start the contract on a 3 year deal, with annual raises of 8% which is allowed for a player resigning with his team, that would equal $22,724,800 over 3 years, which seems fair. If he hit all incentives though it could reach up to $26,133,520.
.

I think you totally nailed it on Len. I don't trust a contract year stats. Im majorly concerned about a long contract and it should have incentives. So yeah, only sign if all the conditions are met and even then I'm leery.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We have no chance of signing him. We are going to draft a center anyway, making the whole thing moot. Why sign Len when you have Ayton or Bamba?

 

[Hoop Head]

We have no chance of signing him. We are going to draft a center anyway, making the whole thing moot. Why sign Len when you have Ayton or Bamba?

Do you expect Chandler to be around past this season? We'll need depth at Center. Len works as a place holder until our rookie is ready. I think it's far too early to say we don't stand a chance of resigning him. There hasn't been anything negative said by his camp regarding the Suns so why do you think there is no chance?

 

[pokerface]

We have no chance of signing him. We are going to draft a center anyway, making the whole thing moot. Why sign Len when you have Ayton or Bamba?

Yeah well sign me up for that. That's my whole hope for this season...Ayton or Bamba.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Do you expect Chandler to be around past this season? We'll need depth at Center. Len works as a place holder until our rookie is ready. I think it's far too early to say we don't stand a chance of resigning him. There hasn't been anything negative said by his camp regarding the Suns so why do you think there is no chance?

Yes. Chandler will be here beyond this season. And we still have Sauce. Benders body will start to mature as well so he will also play center.

I would have loved for the Suns to sign Len to a Sauce like contract this summer. I believe that was probably available to him from the Suns. Of course there was no report of any other offer than the QO. But now, I am convinced he wants new scenery. He has not developed here. Any team that comes along with money and a plan is going to look more appealing than more of the same here. It just makes sense.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yes. Chandler will be here beyond this season. And we still have Sauce. Benders body will start to mature as well so he will also play center.

I guess we will find out. Chandler is under contract through next season but he might be attractive to a contender.