Suns @ Bulls game thread 11-28-17

[pokerface]

Read your post. That first question sounds like trying to get a confirmation.

He's talking about a single game when Chandler has started many games and played substantial minutes.

 

[pokerface]

Name one game where Chandler and Dudley have already messed up our season. Just one.

You keep saying they affect the outcome of games, but I'm wondering which games you are watching.

Chandler, Dudley, and now Len are putting up numbers that could affect games. Either they did make difference or could in the future. I don't like our draft is in jeopardy because of these short term rentals. It's absolutely pointless that they are here.

 

[Chaplin]

Chandler, Dudley, and now Len are putting up numbers that could affect games. Either they did make difference or could in the future. I don't like our draft is in jeopardy because of these short term rentals. It's absolutely pointless that they are here.

Name. One. Game.

Len I can see because he has had some decent statistical outings. But you keep crying about Chandler affecting wins and losses, and I'd like to see you point out one of our wins where Chandler or Dudley were a difference maker. Be specific.

 

[Mainstreet]

This whole tanking conversation is so tiresome. It just goes around in circle.

It was nice to be rid of it for awhile.

 

[Phrazbit]

Chandler hasn't much played this season? You think we are just talking about a single game? Talk about to tone deaf...

Seriously? Are you reading what people say before you respond or are you just popping off at this point? Serious question.

 

[BC867]

9/13
17/18
10/8

The 3 games before he was initially benched. All in less than 30 minutes. Len has his issues, but let's not pretend he wasn't playing well before he was benched.

Lately, Triano has clearly been alternating the Center position between the three. It seems that, rather than play each limited minutes every game, he's been benching one of the three to not bring their stats down.

I assume that is an accommodation to our three Centers. Their per-game stats are part of their livelihood. It is understandable.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He is averaging 21 minutes per game! He played eight minutes in one game and you are freaking out?

Haha. I’m not the one freaking out. I was the one pointing out that others can’t freak out if he sat because it’s what they wanted . . . wins.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can bench a player to make him watch, because he is not responding or doing what you are asking. Its a way of getting his attention. That's not about just winning. If Jackson was averaging 8 minutes, that would be something different altogether.

Part of a young player's development is to learn to be focused on winning the game, and not on their own stats. That is the tricky balance here.

This whole tanking conversation is so tiresome. It just goes around in circle.

Not really. Those of us that want a higher draft pick are incredibly consistent. It’s the “we need to win/play all the young guys” contingent that seem to flip flop and chase their tails.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah right... pffft. The vets will never make a difference in any games this season...never have....never would.

If we dealt them or bench them then we would know for a FACT they wouldn't make a difference.... correct?

It goes in circles because suns management is always a season short in making moves. Instead of benching Bledsoe last season they should have dealt him. Now they have other players that WON'T be in our future playing and messing up our draft. Chandler, Dudley, and most likely Len will not be around two years from now yet they are hanging around just to mess up our future. They artificially prop our win total with no chance at the playoffs and no chance at staying around.

Which is it? The vets won't help us win or they will mess up our draft?

 

[Mainstreet]

Not really. Those of us that want a higher draft pick are incredibly consistent. It’s the “we need to win/play all the young guys” contingent that seem to flip flop and chase their tails.

Is there a need to win crowd?

Yes, there is a play the young guys crowds who like to root for their team to win.

The difference between the two groups doesn't change anything in the win/loss column except how we approach the game.

As you know, neither group effects the outcome.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is there a need to win crowd?

Yes, there is a play the young guys crowds who like to root for their team to win.

The difference between the two groups doesn't change anything in the win/loss column except how we approach the game.

As you know, neither group effects the outcome.

You are absolutely correct on the last sentiment.
And there is absolutely a we must win crowd. The group that’s crowing that we better start winning or Booker is going to bolt.

 

[Mainstreet]

You are absolutely correct on the last sentiment.
And there is absolutely a we must win crowd. The group that’s crowing that we better start winning or Booker is going to bolt.

However, I don't the "Booker is going to bolt" crowd is talking about this season but rather the idea of tanking season after season going into the future. This could push any star to want out. The Suns are not going anywhere this season nor do I think anyone expects them too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

However, I don't the "Booker is going to bolt" crowd is talking about this season but rather the idea of tanking season after season going into the future. This could push any star to want out. The Suns are not going anywhere this season nor do I think anyone expects them too.

If that’s their argument it’s disingenuous then because we keep saying that we are not advocating tanking beyond this season. Poker intimated that once but has since stated that he’s not calling for indefinite tanking and wants it this season. If that happened (and everyone needs be honest, they are NOT tanking at present, nor did they tank until the very end of the season last season), it’s hardly “tanking season after season going into the future.” It would have been a portion of last season and a portion of this season. That’s not the picture the win now crowd is painting and it’s a false painting.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Man I wish I cared enough about this team to actually engage in either side of the tank/not to tank battle royale, but this team is in purgatory, and so is my interest.

Blegh. This team is blegh and outside of Booker, I’m not really sure where the major upside is. Which would prob land me in the tank crew, but... blegh. I couldnt care less.

 

[pokerface]

A few points here....

The moving Chandler point has become moot somewhat as far as a tank move because we have Monroe who seems decent and Len who has shown us more solid games. But keeping Chandler still hurts because Monroe and Len should be splitting minutes evenly to see if either is worth going after this offseason. Chandler should be dealt.

No one is their right mind wants the suns to lose year after year and I'm not advocating a tank after this season. But the suns have to start cooperating and play near .500 ball and stop stinking. I want the suns to bottom out strong and rise strong. They still need another top pick or a dang good trade. Plus now we need a PG. Bottomline I want whatever the suns are closer to achieving... either playoffs or getting a very high pick.

To me the suns need progress in one form or another. I want a solid foundation...not stop gap moves...not messing around with players that dont help our present or future. Realistically, there is not much more that can be done anymore.... Bled has been traded and they are playing the youth. I'm not advocating sitting players this early in the season either. But this next draft seems very important and it should not be taken for granted. If the suns can manuever and get a higher pick by whatever means it should be strongly considered.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, either way, something HAS to happen in the next week, since the clock is ticking to December 8th with Mike James. Unfortunately, our PG situation says that we HAVE to keep him, but it will have to be at the expense of someone else. If we can't trade anyone, then we'll have to cut somebody.

Len will NOT be back with the Suns next season, I'd say that is almost a certainty.

 

[Mainstreet]

If that’s their argument it’s disingenuous then because we keep saying that we are not advocating tanking beyond this season. Poker intimated that once but has since stated that he’s not calling for indefinite tanking and wants it this season. If that happened (and everyone needs be honest, they are NOT tanking at present, nor did they tank until the very end of the season last season), it’s hardly “tanking season after season going into the future.” It would have been a portion of last season and a portion of this season. That’s not the picture the win now crowd is painting and it’s a false painting.

I think the Suns are so bad this discussion is no longer relevant. Let's hope for better days.

At this point I'm just trying to get through the season.

 

[BC867]

However, I don't the "Booker is going to bolt" crowd is talking about this season but rather the idea of tanking season after season going into the future. This could push any star to want out. The Suns are not going anywhere this season nor do I think anyone expects them too.

Tanking is one part of the equation. The other is a GM who has been producing losing teams season after season.

Seven years out of the playoffs, going on eight, and they are still experimenting with starting lineups every game.

Team chemistry (on offense and defense) is an important factor in building a winning culture. And why our turnovers are worse than ever.

It is not the coach's fault. It is not the player's fault. It is clearly on the owner and on the GM. They evidently don't know how to progressively build a winner.

 

[Mainstreet]

Tanking is one part of the equation. The other is a GM who has been producing losing teams season after season.

Seven years out of the playoffs, going on eight, and they are still experimenting with starting lineups every game.

I think that one could make a case McDonough has fanned on too many early draft picks although the final determination will not be made for years to come.

Here are some draft results:

Len was drafted #5.
Dragan Bender was drafted #4
Marquese Chriss was drafted for the Suns at #8
And Josh Jackson was drafted #4

This can be contrasted with some other early draft picks who were very successful in more recent NBA history.

Amare was drafted #9
Shawn Marion was drafted #9
And Joe Johnson was drafted #10 by Boston

Of course the Suns hit on notable later picks.

Booker was drafted at #13
Nash was drafted at #15

One could make the case the Suns would be better off drafting #9 or later.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Tanking is one part of the equation. The other is a GM who has been producing losing teams season after season.

Seven years out of the playoffs, going on eight, and they are still experimenting with starting lineups every game.

Team chemistry (on offense and defense) is an important factor in building a winning culture. And why our turnovers are worse than ever.

It is not the coach's fault. It is not the player's fault. It is clearly on the owner and on the GM. They evidently don't know how to progressively build a winner.

a rare moment of total agreement between us.

 

[pokerface]

The suns are such losers that saying they tank is a compliment. It implies they're better than they are... which they aren't.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think that one could make a case McDonough has fanned on too many early draft picks although the final determination will not be made for years to come.

Here are some draft results:

Len was drafted #5.
Dragan Bender was drafted #4
Marquese Chriss was drafted for the Suns at #8
And Josh Jackson was drafted #4

This can be contrasted with some other early draft picks who were very successful in more recent NBA history.

Amare was drafted #9
Shawn Marion was drafted #9
And Joe Johnson was drafted #10 by Boston

Of course the Suns hit on notable later picks.

Booker was drafted at #13
Nash was drafted at #15

One could make the case the Suns would be better off drafting #9 or later.

Um. This assumes Jackson is a "fan" which I believe is absolutely wrong. Everyone knew Bender was going to take time and has been improving. I think he will end up being an excellent player and pick.

Chriss might be a "fan" but the jury is still out (he came into camp out of shape and still has not gotten it back) and Len to this point is.

Where McD has not done well is his coaching hires.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't blame McD that much for the Len pick, a lot of GM's made bad picks that year. You can't grade a GM on picks made other than their own and of the players available with the information at the time, Len was a smart pick at the time. He's finally showing flashes of being the player some hoped or projected him to be but it's too little too late considering this is his 5th season. No one thought Antetokounmpo would be who is he is. I remember when he was picked some analysts said he was a reach at #15 and he should have been a 2nd rounder. The scouting info wasn't there and for every #1 success story like Giannis there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of busts who were drafted based solely on their measurements instead of their skill. There have been 2 All-Stars from that draft class, neither was in the lottery, Giannis and Gobert who was selected at #27. Gobert had the knock of being a European big and too many of them busted in the past. I know Len is a European big also but he played in the NCAA for 2 years. You can argue Noel should have been selected but he missed his entire 1st year, has had health issues since entering the league and our training staff probably advised against taking him for those reasons. Beyond that he hasn't looked that good. He played well in Dallas and since Cuban and the Mavericks love overpaying Centers they offered him 4 years for $70 million last offseason that he turned down, because he thought he was worth the max. No one offered Philly much for him despite being on the trade block since he was drafted, finally getting dealt for Bogut (expiring contract), Justin Anderson (end of the bench young player), and 2 second rounders. Noel hired Rich Paul to be his agent after turning down that contract from Dallas also, so he's determined to get paid this summer but won't have the qualifying offer to fall back on. The Suns could go after him if they wanted to but I doubt there is interest.


In the 2016 draft though Bender and Chriss were a good haul considering we went in with 3 first rounders and left with 2 top 10 picks. It was doubling down in a way since they were both seen as PF's but after watching them you can tell they can play alongside each other without any issue. Bender was a project since he was the youngest player taken but he's shown good improvement from last year and looks like a rotation player with a lot of potential. He's only played in 66 career games so far, which is far too early to call him a bust or not but I think as long as he stays healthy he'll be a solid NBA player. Of course you want more than that from a #4 pick but he's looked better than Len did during his 2nd year, he's looked better than Len during his 5th year. He only turned 20 a few weeks ago, so patience is needed with him. He's shooting much better, which is a plus, and his defense has been a pleasant surprise.

Chriss has regressed but I think that has to do with Watson more than anyone else besides Marquese himself. He shouldn't have ever been gifted the starting job last year, I think 7 or 8 games into the season. That helped build his ego which led to him being lazy and entitled this offseason, showing up out of shape for Summer League and the regular season. He's still not in game shape yet, or at least the shape he was last year. He was in even worse shape during Summer League, where he didn't want to be but he could have learned some things that would have helped him if he applied himself there instead of sulking. That was the first sign of attitude issues with him but I'm glad they came out sooner than later. He might have shown up in worse shape than he did for the season if they didn't have him play during the SL because that was only 2-3 months after the season ended. He shouldn't have fallen off that much in that short of time. I didn't buy into the Marquese hype some people talked up when the team went into tank mode after the All-Star break because I think his improvements came from playing alongside Ulis rather than Bledsoe. This year he needs to get back into shape and lose the attitude but he's looked a little better over the last 2-3 weeks than he did to start the year. Triano seems to get through to him more than Watson did, who lost him when he benched him for the Jackson/Warren frontcourt. He's still only 20 years old with just 105 NBA games under his belt, 92 of those have been starts. That is too many starts but nothing we can do about that now. Triano needs to keep him accountable and work with him to get him in shape, which it seems like he is.

Based on everything though, I don't think you can say for certain that McD has whiffed on his early 1st round picks, the jury is still out on that. Jackson has been in the NBA for 2 months and that's not enough time to call him a bust. He looked great against Detroit, like the player many wanted the Suns to draft, and since he's only 20 years old and new to the NBA we can't expect that nightly but it was good to see him show us what his future could be.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't blame McD that much for the Len pick, a lot of GM's made bad picks that year. You can't grade a GM on picks made other than their own and of the players available with the information at the time, Len was a smart pick at the time. He's finally showing flashes of being the player some hoped or projected him to be but it's too little too late considering this is his 5th season. No one thought Antetokounmpo would be who is he is. I remember when he was picked some analysts said he was a reach at #15 and he should have been a 2nd rounder. The scouting info wasn't there and for every #1 success story like Giannis there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of busts who were drafted based solely on their measurements instead of their skill. There have been 2 All-Stars from that draft class, neither was in the lottery, Giannis and Gobert who was selected at #27. Gobert had the knock of being a European big and too many of them busted in the past. I know Len is a European big also but he played in the NCAA for 2 years. You can argue Noel should have been selected but he missed his entire 1st year, has had health issues since entering the league and our training staff probably advised against taking him for those reasons. Beyond that he hasn't looked that good. He played well in Dallas and since Cuban and the Mavericks love overpaying Centers they offered him 4 years for $70 million last offseason that he turned down, because he thought he was worth the max. No one offered Philly much for him despite being on the trade block since he was drafted, finally getting dealt for Bogut (expiring contract), Justin Anderson (end of the bench young player), and 2 second rounders. Noel hired Rich Paul to be his agent after turning down that contract from Dallas also, so he's determined to get paid this summer but won't have the qualifying offer to fall back on. The Suns could go after him if they wanted to but I doubt there is interest.


In the 2016 draft though Bender and Chriss were a good haul considering we went in with 3 first rounders and left with 2 top 10 picks. It was doubling down in a way since they were both seen as PF's but after watching them you can tell they can play alongside each other without any issue. Bender was a project since he was the youngest player taken but he's shown good improvement from last year and looks like a rotation player with a lot of potential. He's only played in 66 career games so far, which is far too early to call him a bust or not but I think as long as he stays healthy he'll be a solid NBA player. Of course you want more than that from a #4 pick but he's looked better than Len did during his 2nd year, he's looked better than Len during his 5th year. He only turned 20 a few weeks ago, so patience is needed with him. He's shooting much better, which is a plus, and his defense has been a pleasant surprise.

Chriss has regressed but I think that has to do with Watson more than anyone else besides Marquese himself. He shouldn't have ever been gifted the starting job last year, I think 7 or 8 games into the season. That helped build his ego which led to him being lazy and entitled this offseason, showing up out of shape for Summer League and the regular season. He's still not in game shape yet, or at least the shape he was last year. He was in even worse shape during Summer League, where he didn't want to be but he could have learned some things that would have helped him if he applied himself there instead of sulking. That was the first sign of attitude issues with him but I'm glad they came out sooner than later. He might have shown up in worse shape than he did for the season if they didn't have him play during the SL because that was only 2-3 months after the season ended. He shouldn't have fallen off that much in that short of time. I didn't buy into the Marquese hype some people talked up when the team went into tank mode after the All-Star break because I think his improvements came from playing alongside Ulis rather than Bledsoe. This year he needs to get back into shape and lose the attitude but he's looked a little better over the last 2-3 weeks than he did to start the year. Triano seems to get through to him more than Watson did, who lost him when he benched him for the Jackson/Warren frontcourt. He's still only 20 years old with just 105 NBA games under his belt, 92 of those have been starts. That is too many starts but nothing we can do about that now. Triano needs to keep him accountable and work with him to get him in shape, which it seems like he is.

Based on everything though, I don't think you can say for certain that McD has whiffed on his early 1st round picks, the jury is still out on that. Jackson has been in the NBA for 2 months and that's not enough time to call him a bust. He looked great against Detroit, like the player many wanted the Suns to draft, and since he's only 20 years old and new to the NBA we can't expect that nightly but it was good to see him show us what his future could be.

I pretty much agree here. McD has not done very well picking coaches though. He also does not seem to communicate well with players.

I am not sure how much Sarver's interference factors in. Watson said that when he was fired, Sarver did all of the talking and McD was just in the room. I am not sure that is or should be the role of an owner. Just something to think about. If we have to have Sarver as an owner, and we do. then McD might be the best GM for the situation. You have to have a GM that can tolerate this situation and work with it. Other GM's would probably just blow things up and walk. We would just have more drama.

In McD's defense, I think he learns. He freely admits when he makes mistakes. If he is going to get an education at our expense, we might as well reap the reward when he improves. I think McD is an improving GM and my tendency would be to keep him.

By the way. I said the same thing about Steve Kerr. There was a lot of griping about Kerr's horrible trades (and he had some really bad ones). But you could see that he was on a learning curve. We took the lumps while he was learning. Then we let him walk, and let the Warriors enjoy the benefit.

 

[SirStefan32]

I pretty much agree here. McD has not done very well picking coaches though. He also does not seem to communicate well with players.

I am not sure how much Sarver's interference factors in. Watson said that when he was fired, Sarver did all of the talking and McD was just in the room. I am not sure that is or should be the role of an owner. Just something to think about. If we have to have Sarver as an owner, and we do. then McD might be the best GM for the situation. You have to have a GM that can tolerate this situation and work with it. Other GM's would probably just blow things up and walk. We would just have more drama.

In McD's defense, I think he learns. He freely admits when he makes mistakes. If he is going to get an education at our expense, we might as well reap the reward when he improves. I think McD is an improving GM and my tendency would be to keep him.

I have no problem with that. I don't want him interfering in drafting, free agency, and crap like that, but I have no issue with the owner doing the firings.

Agree with the rest of your post.