Suns @ Cavaliers 2-21-19

[Chaplin]

Apologies.

It's cool, Ouchie. I never expected nor wanted an apology from you. Lord knows if that was the case most of our posts would be "apologies" or something to that effect.

 

[Chaplin]

I’m certainly skeptical of Igor’s usage of Ayton, but let’s not fool ourselves. Ayton has the ability to go beast mode and collect 17 rebounds and pound the offensive glass and get putbacks. But that requires aggression and a big energy expenditure that I just don’t think cares to spend night in and night out.

I personally don't think it's that simple. Call me an Ayton apologist, but I find it hard to believe he simply decides in his mind not to do it.

 

[Finito]

I’m certainly skeptical of Igor’s usage of Ayton, but let’s not fool ourselves. Ayton has the ability to go beast mode and collect 17 rebounds and pound the offensive glass and get putbacks. But that requires aggression and a big energy expenditure that I just don’t think cares to spend night in and night out.

Since you and Steve seem on the same page.

Please tell me these NBA rookies who pulled down 17 rebounds a game?

 

[Mainstreet]

We'll hire a coach that got fired after posting a losingrecord? Oh joy the future looks bright got the purple and orange gang.

My guess is we should hire Herb Sendek.

He coached James Harden.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I personally don't think it's that simple. Call me an Ayton apologist, but I find it hard to believe he simply decides in his mind not to do it.

It doesn’t have to be a decision per se. he might just not have the fire that drives the great ones to do it without prodding. Either way, same problem same results.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Since you and Steve seem on the same page.

Please tell me these NBA rookies who pulled down 17 rebounds a game?

Did I ever say “per game?” Nope. He’s already done it at least a couple times this season so it’s doable. 9 rebounds against zizic just flat out sucks. But thanks for playing!

 

[Chaplin]

It doesn’t have to be a decision per se. he might just not have the fire that drives the great ones to do it without prodding. Either way, same problem same results.

It’s also my belief that this is something that he can learn to do. It’s not a foregone conclusion that he will be like this his whole career.

 

[Finito]

Did I ever say “per game?” Nope. He’s already done it at least a couple times this season so it’s doable. 9 rebounds against zizic just flat out sucks. But thanks for playing!

No no no you don’t get to do that. He’s averaging 10.5.

Go tell me all the rookie big men who averaged a double double since let’s say 1990.

I wanna see this list. Bet it’s pretty short.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No no no you don’t get to do that. He’s averaging 10.5.

Go tell me all the rookie big men who averaged a double double since let’s say 1990.

I wanna see this list. Bet it’s pretty short.

It absolutely is. And you’ll excuse me if I don’t do the work for you to make your argument. None of which changes the fact that he could go get the ball off the glass and dominate if he had a mind to do so. But he doesn’t. Pretty simple.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Ayton's Plan.
Play one QT the first year. Two QT's the second year and Three the next year. Time for the Suns to resign him he will be playing all four Qts.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No no no you don’t get to do that. He’s averaging 10.5.

Go tell me all the rookie big men who averaged a double double since let’s say 1990.

I wanna see this list. Bet it’s pretty short.

Like I said, he puts up stats. And I think we throw around the "empty stats" label far too often so I wouldn't go so far as to say his numbers don't matter. But there are huge stretches of the game where he seems uninvolved on both ends of the court. You can be great for 5 minutes a game but if you're out there for 30 minutes a night, that's a whole lot of nothing.

I don't think I said it (here) but I had the same problem with him at UA. He was incredible and then he was missing. I finally decided I wanted him regardless of his disappearances but I was really hoping they were caused, at least in part, by the coach playing him at the 4 most of the time. That's clearly not the case and while current coaching might be part of the issue, it's a very small part IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

Amare almost averaged a double double as a rookie with 14.4 ppg and 9.1 rpg as a starter in his rookie season. That isn't that much lower than Ayton and I don't think anyone would say Amare was a great rebounder. He had the potential to be a great rebounder and so does Ayton but right now Ayton is grabbing most of his boards because of where he plays on defense and because he's 7 feet tall. I don't know how empty his scoring is but I have no doubt that his rebounding could be matched by another 7 foot filling in for him here. It's not like he's competing with anyone else on our roster for rebounder since he doesn't share the floor with Holmes.

To back up the idea that damn near any 7 footer could grab as many boards as Ayton here, Len averaged 7.5 rebounds in 20.2 minutes last season. As a starter he averaged 8.8 rpg in 25.8 minutes, so he didn't get on the floor as much as Ayton when he started. Chandler averaged 9.1 rpg in 25 mpg last year and 11.5 in 27.6 mpg the year before. Chandler was not a great rebounder while in Phoenix. He barely left his feet as a Sun unless he was being thrown a lob. I have no doubt that if those 2 saw Ayton's minutes though they would average similar rebounding numbers, even though Len is a borderline NBA player and Chandler is at least 3-4 past being a servicable NBA player.

 

[Finito]

Lol

Still no names huh. Just a bunch of what’s ifs and maybes

 

[cwamjn]

Lol

Still no names huh. Just a bunch of what’s ifs and maybes

LJ and Tim Duncan off the top of my head that's easy. I don't know what you all arguing about though.

 

[Hoop Head]

Lol

Still no names huh. Just a bunch of what’s ifs and maybes

And just how impactful are his 10.5 rebounds a game? You tell us that. If what he is doing is so unique and earns him this special status then why is it that he isn't helping us win more games? If he's such a great rebounder why is it that the Suns are 30th in the league in rebounds per game? Why are you putting so much stock in him averaging a double double, like that is some great measuring stick. There are 16 other players averaging double doubles right now, with 14 of them averaging more rebounds than Ayton, so we're supposed to be impressed he's #15 in the league in rebounding per game?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Lol

Still no names huh. Just a bunch of what’s ifs and maybes

Just watch him play and tell us why you disagree? He'll often pick up 10 points and 6 rebounds in just 7 minutes which is great but the next time he comes in he'll do nothing for 8 minutes. Sure, he's great when he's great but it does little to help a team win if he's doing nothing for large stretches of the game and I don't just mean scoring and rebounding.

 

[Finito]

LJ and Tim Duncan off the top of my head that's easy. I don't know what you all arguing about though.

LJ as in Lebron James?

Nope

 

[Finito]

And just how impactful are his 10.5 rebounds a game? You tell us that. If what he is doing is so unique and earns him this special status then why is it that he isn't helping us win more games? If he's such a great rebounder why is it that the Suns are 30th in the league in rebounds per game? Why are you putting so much stock in him averaging a double double, like that is some great measuring stick. There are 16 other players averaging double doubles right now, with 14 of them averaging more rebounds than Ayton, so we're supposed to be impressed he's #15 in the league in rebounding per game?

Waiting....

 

[sunsfan88]

And you know this how? I know that we've heard a few positives about Ryan's contributions away from the game but they really don't mean much and even if there were meaningful we have no way of knowing if Tyler is filling a similar role. Regardless, I've been very unimpressed by Tyler's play so far but there's a reason Anderson has only logged 2 minutes since that trade, he apparently can't play the game anymore.

What exactly has Tyler Johnson showed that makes you think he deserves more than the 2 mins since the trade that Anderson has?

As to your first question, Ryan Anderson not playing on game days hurt the Suns less than Tyler Johnson playing for the Suns on game days.

 

[BC867]

Sometimes you just have to send a message

I suggest amending that too . . . sometimes you have to send a good message.

It is just like the saying . . . practice makes perfect. Nope. Perfect practice makes perfect. Bad practice makes bad.

You get out of it what you put into it. At all levels of the team.

 

[BC867]

And you know this how? I know that we've heard a few positives about Ryan's contributions away from the game but they really don't mean much and even if there were meaningful we have no way of knowing if Tyler is filling a similar role. Regardless, I've been very unimpressed by Tyler's play so far but there's a reason Anderson has only logged 2 minutes since that trade, he apparently can't play the game anymore.

It is no surprise that fans are now debating which player is "less worse". Especially with each playing different positions.

'Sign of the times for the Suns. It's sad!

 

[BC867]

I finally decided I wanted him regardless of his disappearances but I was really hoping they were caused, at least in part, by the coach playing him at the 4 most of the time. That's clearly not the case and while current coaching might be part of the issue, it's a very small part IMO.

He may not be playing the 4, but his role is to play offense at the 5 by setting high picks, as has been previously posted, until it is too late for him to be in, or get to, a position to take advantage of, and develop, his Center skills on offense.

Either way, it keeps Ayton from being in a position to do his best. And, not surprisingly, from developing confidence in himself.

Is it because Ayton has limitations (and the coaching staff lacks the skill to development him)? Or is it because the Head Coach has limitations in his strategy? That is the question.

Either way, I do not blame the rookie (expected to be a superstar the minute he stepped on an NBA court). Until the reason is pinpointed, there is no hope for improvement.

 

[Chaplin]

What exactly has Tyler Johnson showed that makes you think he deserves more than the 2 mins since the trade that Anderson has?

As to your first question, Ryan Anderson not playing on game days hurt the Suns less than Tyler Johnson playing for the Suns on game days.

His defense is better. I don’t think you remember just how bad Ryan Anderson was.

 

[Hoop Head]

Waiting....

You'll continue to wait because you can't jump into a discussion about how impactful a player is and then demand that others drop everything because you think you have a point. This started because Ouchie pointed out how Ayton is largely a non-factor and you accused him of disliking Ayton altogether. He's never made that claim, you made it for him, and since he didn't agree with the words you tried to put in his mouth you've tried to spin the whole discussion to how he gets double doubles as a rookie, like that is supposed to absolve him of any criticism.

Why do you hold double doubles in such high esteem? Is there any correlation between a player posting a double double and their team winning? Is there any correlation between a player averaging a double double and that making his team a good rebounding or passing team, depending on which stat is the other side of the "double" be it rebounds or assists.

If you can answer why double doubles are so important then I will do your work for you and look up how many rookies averaged double doubles. You're the one who seems to think that's important though so that's why it's being called your work, because if you are trying to prove a point you shouldn't call for others to post stats to back up the side of the argument you're on.

 

[WildBB]

You'll continue to wait because you can't jump into a discussion about how impactful a player is and then demand that others drop everything because you think you have a point. This started because Ouchie pointed out how Ayton is largely a non-factor and you accused him of disliking Ayton altogether. He's never made that claim, you made it for him, and since he didn't agree with the words you tried to put in his mouth you've tried to spin the whole discussion to how he gets double doubles as a rookie, like that is supposed to absolve him of any criticism.

Why do you hold double doubles in such high esteem? Is there any correlation between a player posting a double double and their team winning? Is there any correlation between a player averaging a double double and that making his team a good rebounding or passing team, depending on which stat is the other side of the "double" be it rebounds or assists.

If you can answer why double doubles are so important than I will do your work for you and look up how many rookies averaged double doubles. You're the one who seems to think that's important though so that's why it's being called your work, because if you are trying to prove a point you shouldn't call for others to post stats to back up the side of the argument you're on.

I agree, Ayton is talented but very inconsistent so far. He just seems to be going through the motions especially defensively. He should watch tape of two teams playing their buts off in OKC vs. Utah tonight. Gobert was in playoff beast mode. Best NBA game of the year so far , imo.

If Ayton does nothing else but improve his rebounding and shot deterrence this year, it"s enough.