Suns, Eric Bledsoe Far Apart In Talks

[Mulli]

Orange pajamas for epic fail.

 

[Sci Fi]

Here's a really good post from over on Phxsuns.net from poster Informer.

"I'll say this: I think a 2-point guard lineup is effective. And I think the team suffered from a talent deficiency last year that Eric Bledsoe helped to alleviate. So I don't look at the difference in record from when Bledsoe was in the lineup versus when he was out as establishing some unique value in Eric Bledsoe.

I think you don't get the most out of Thomas or Dragic with Bledsoe on the team. And I believe that the Thomas-Dragic combo can be ridiculously potent. It's not a combo that has to start, but it is a combo I would like to see be used extensively. I'm reminded of the damage Dallas was able to do against Miami and the Lakers with JJ Barea paired with one of Jason Kidd or Jason Terry. And Thomas is far superior to Barea.

I see Bledsoe as more or less an extraneous element and a luxury. I don't think he's an established cornerstone of the team or franchise, and the Suns acquired for peanuts. So I think that's why I'm not hard-pressed to get an All-Star or a stud for him in a trade. I don't think his departure leaves us with a void, so I'm content just to trade him for something I think the Suns can use."

These are largely my sentiments as I think the Suns should no longer retain Bledsoe. Get what you can out of him and move on. I've heard enough rumors that "he wants to lead his team". Fine, do so elsewhere and expect to play for a poor team. This is Goran's team and the Suns play much better when that occurs. The Suns were far, far better with him leading than Bledsoe. I have no trouble with having dual leaders but that doesn't seem to be his wish.

People say the Suns won a much higher percentage when Bledsoe was playing rather than not. That's true but they also did that when Barbosa was playing. What the Suns really needed with Goran last year was a secondary ballhandler to ease the load. With Thomas now in the fold, he'll more than make up for the loss of Bledsoe. He's actually a better offensive player than Bledsoe. I'd expect the chemsitry will be much better with Thomas since he really wants to be here and I always felt the interaction between Goran and Eric was forced.

So, move on from Bledsoe. Enough is enough.

 

[elindholm]

According to 82games.com, Dragic and Bledsoe were on the floor together for only about 560 minutes. They did well together, but almost always had Frye as part of the same unit, and Frye is now gone. So it's very difficult to be confident that a Dragic-Bledsoe pairing will be effective over the long haul. The Suns are being asked to make a huge commitment based on very little real information.

 

[Sci Fi]

Right, the commitment is huge and as correctly pointed out by Informer, there is a redundancy with Thomas and Bledose. They have Thomas on a very attractive contract. Use the money on some other need or at some other time.

 

[AzStevenCal]

According to 82games.com, Dragic and Bledsoe were on the floor together for only about 560 minutes. They did well together, but almost always had Frye as part of the same unit, and Frye is now gone. So it's very difficult to be confident that a Dragic-Bledsoe pairing will be effective over the long haul. The Suns are being asked to make a huge commitment based on very little real information.

I worry about this also. Frye's ability to space the court was critical to this pairing just like it was critical to Markieff's success inside. I don't know how well Markieff or Tolliver can duplicate that plus teams will probably be a lot more comfortable guarding them with small forwards. We made fun of Frye's inside game but he did punish the other team if they put a smaller player on him. Not every time, but often enough to make it a bad idea. Hopefully the coaching staff has a pretty good idea whether they can duplicate the results with a different roster.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Right, the commitment is huge and as correctly pointed out by Informer, there is a redundancy with Thomas and Bledose. They have Thomas on a very attractive contract. Use the money on some other need or at some other time.

The problem with this thinking is that Bledsoe does have star potential. Injury notwithstanding, he does things on the defensive end that few other guards can match. You can't just give away talent like that, not without taking a step backwards. If someone offers us good talent or even the possibility of good talent, then maybe that's the way to go. But saving the money for a better player is a bad gamble IMO.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Looking at the 82games 5 man units does not worry me. Yes, they were very effective with Frye in... they were also very effective with Morris in, basically, together they were very very effective.

Also, defensively we were much much worse whenever Green (a traditional and long SG) was on the court for either Bledsoe or Dragic, which certainly goes against the grain of the two combo guards taking away from us on D.

I am not saying we should give Bledsoe 80 mil for 5 years, but I absolutely think we are doing the right thing by waiting him out. Wait for some other team to make an offer or wait for his agent to come to grips with reality. Do not explore sign and trade options unless we're going to blow up the entire team.

People here whine about the Suns not adopting decent defensive philosophies, and here we are with one of, if not the best defensive guard in the NBA, who also is a very good player offensively. Keeping him is a no brainer.

 

[Covert Rain]

According to 82games.com, Dragic and Bledsoe were on the floor together for only about 560 minutes. They did well together, but almost always had Frye as part of the same unit, and Frye is now gone. So it's very difficult to be confident that a Dragic-Bledsoe pairing will be effective over the long haul. The Suns are being asked to make a huge commitment based on very little real information.

Not to mention I can't think of one scenario where this has been effective over the long haul or led to long term playoff success. I can't remember who said it but this type of play is good for infusing some offense and in small spurts but as a long term strategy?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not to mention I can't think of one scenario where this has been effective over the long haul or led to long term playoff success. I can't remember who said it but this type of play is good for infusing some offense and in small spurts but as a long term strategy?

But what exactly are you talking about? I can think of a lot of teams that had success with two good guards. It's only if you pigeon-hole Dragic as a point guard that it starts to limit your comparisons. Dragic didn't take off until we turned him loose and let him become a scoring guard. As a pure point guard, he's barely average. Our defense was stellar when the two of them played together which is usually the other limiting factor when you have two guards that can both handle the ball. Pairing Bledsoe with Goran is no more a gimmick than pairing Parker and Ginobili.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

People call things a gimmick when they don't like them. Like Phraz (or somebody) always says D'antoni's offense is a gimmick cause he doesn't like it. Thing is, Popovich actually copied that "gimmick" offense.

 

[Phrazbit]

People call things a gimmick when they don't like them. Like Phraz always says D'antoni's offense is a gimmick cause he doesn't like it. Thing is, Popovich actually copied that "gimmick" offense.

Uhh... when did I ever (much less always) call D'Anotni's offense a gimmick and claim I didnt like it? My problem with D'Antoni was every single other aspect of his coaching acumen.

If D'Anotni could develop his bench, develop young players, coach sound defense, make good subs, use his timeouts wisely... ect ect ect... you know, all the stuff that made Pop an amazing coach for nearly 20 years now, I wouldnt have ever complained about him.

Why am I even arguing this...

 

[BigRedRage]

Mike Jurecki ‏@mikejurecki
>>RT @Chris_Broussard: Suns offered Eric Bledsoe 4-year, $48 million contract. Bledsoe wants max of 5 years, $80 million. Sides far apart

LOL

 

[Covert Rain]

But what exactly are you talking about? I can think of a lot of teams that had success with two good guards. It's only if you pigeon-hole Dragic as a point guard that it starts to limit your comparisons. Dragic didn't take off until we turned him loose and let him become a scoring guard. As a pure point guard, he's barely average. Our defense was stellar when the two of them played together which is usually the other limiting factor when you have two guards that can both handle the ball. Pairing Bledsoe with Goran is no more a gimmick than pairing Parker and Ginobili.

Steve

It comes down to the definition of success I guess. Winning a bunch of regular season games using a two PG lineup is not really success to me because I think history has proven the ceiling on that kind of lineup. If you know it will only take you so far but use it anyway...that's when it becomes either a gimick or necessity based on your available personnel. That doesn't mean it's a recipe for long term success or into the playoffs.

I also don't consider it pigeon holing Dragic in callling him a PG just because we decide to play him out of position and he has some ability to occasionally swing out to SG. I don't see how this is any different than calling Amare or Frye a "center" which neither of them were either.

Parker and Ginobli? How is that the same thing? Ginobli is no PG. I consider Parker/Ginboli on the floor much different than Bledso/Dragic.

 

[elindholm]

So are we going to get this same "breaking" report every day from here on out? Whose turn will it be tomorrow?

 

[Covert Rain]

Uhh... when did I ever (much less always) call D'Anotni's offense a gimmick and claim I didnt like it? My problem with D'Antoni was every single other aspect of his coaching acumen.

If D'Anotni could develop his bench, develop young players, coach sound defense, make good subs, use his timeouts wisely... ect ect ect... you know, all the stuff that made Pop an amazing coach for nearly 20 years now, I wouldnt have ever complained about him.

Why am I even arguing this...

Exactly..the difference to me between a gimmick and an actual strategy is D'Antoni..not for one second was probably thinking it couldn't win him titles. If he knew it wouldn't and just employed it to entertain...that is when it's a gimmick IMO.

D'Anotni was convinced despite the inherit flaws in his system. There area many teams that tried to copy 7 seconds or less right around that time and quickly abandoned it. What teams in the NBA are still doing it?

 

[Dr. Jones]

The defensive difference between Bledsoe & Thomas is like Duncan versus Bo Outlaw on Offense.

If we lost Bledsoe & Frye we have the chance of a major regression IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

The defensive difference between Bledsoe & Thomas is like Duncan versus Bo Outlaw on Offense.

If we lost Bledsoe & Frye we have the chance of a major regression IMO.

And on both ends of the court.

 

[BC867]

If we lost Bledsoe & Frye we have the chance of a major regression IMO.

We did lose it for half a season and just missed the playoffs, after having been picked for the worst record in the NBA.

And, yes, if we simply lose one of them (Bledsoe now, Dragic a year later), it will be a regression.

But if we could add a legitimate rebounder in place of one of our 3 Point Guards (Bledsoe), we'd be on course to step up.

You can't look at the loss without the gain.

=============================================

Also, I don't remember who posted that it doesn't matter if your best rebounder is a C/PF or a Small Forward. To that I say, it's not baseball. You don't stand at your position and wait for the ball to come to you.

Our (best rebounding) Small Forward fighting for a rebound against their C/PF is . . . well, just picture it.

 

[Mainstreet]

I listened to McDonough on the radio late this afternoon. He said all the right things about Bledsoe.

First, he said no deal was imminent through at least 72 hours as the announcer pushed it out this far.

Second, the deal could stretch into late July or August.

Third, McDonough said his preference was to keep Bledsoe.

Fourth, the Suns are not exploring other options than Bledsoe although he does take calls about all the players on the roster.

Fifth, the Suns will likely take this roster into camp with some invites.

Sixth, (my take) McDonough would make a very good poker player.

 

[Errntknght]

Not to mention I can't think of one scenario where this has been effective over the long haul or led to long term playoff success. I can't remember who said it but this type of play is good for infusing some offense and in small spurts but as a long term strategy?

I'm not sure exactly what you are claiming here... are there a long list of pairings of two PGs that have been great in the regular season but failed miserably in the playoffs? Unless you count Isaiah Thomas - Joe Dumars and Stockton - Hornacek are there any examples at all -- and neither of these pairs dropped off badly in the playoffs. More recently Dallas used a pairs of PGs together (from among Kidd, Terry and Barea) fairly heavily for a few years, and with success in the postseason - I think Kidd was the only starter in this case and Terry was not considered a PG by many people by that time.

Actually there was a case many years ago... the Knicks started Walt "Clyde" Frazier and Earl "The Pearl" Monroe in their backcourt for 2-3 years near the end of their careers and won at least one championship. These guys were indisputably both PGs.

A few years prior to that the Lakers paired Jerry West and Gail Goodrich in their backcourt and they were a force in the playoffs. Some might argue that West was more of a SG but there were years when he played the point.

Before that the Celtics won titles with Cousy and Bill Sharman as their starting backcourt. I don't think the term PG was in use then but Cousy was the clearly the main playmaker - but IIRC Sharman was the playmaker when Cousy wasn't on the floor.

Heck, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that if you studied Oscar Robertson's career you would probably find some years where his backcourt mate was another PG.

Now if you'd just trot out your list of pairings that give some credence to your claim we could have a serious argument...

 

[Errntknght]

I certainly called D'Antoni's system a gimmick many times but I wasn't referring to the fastbreak aspect of it. (I grew up watching the Celtics fastbreak to one title after another, so that part of it was great.) What I meant was that Mike believed that playing defense wasn't important because it slowed the tempo of the game and that he would go to small lineups to up the tempo. Another gimmicky aspect was playing a very short rotation so that key players played tons of minutes and were running on fumes by the end of regular season. It was understandable since he learned basketball in Europe with seasons of 30 games of 40 minutes each and single game eliminations for the playoffs. Not like seven game series where a decent coach will turn all your gimmicks against you.

 

[BC867]

I certainly called D'Antoni's system a gimmick many times but I wasn't referring to the fastbreak aspect of it. (I grew up watching the Celtics fastbreak to one title after another, so that part of it was great.) What I meant was that Mike believed that playing defense wasn't important because it slowed the tempo of the game and that he would go to small lineups to up the tempo. Another gimmicky aspect was playing a very short rotation so that key players played tons of minutes and were running on fumes by the end of regular season. It was understandable since he learned basketball in Europe with seasons of 30 games of 40 minutes each and single game eliminations for the playoffs. Not like seven game series where a decent coach will turn all your gimmicks against you.

That, plus not wanting to develop young players, sums it up.

What floors me is how the Knicks, then the Lakers, thought he could succeed with them. His limitations had been well documented by the time he left the Suns.

 

[Superbone]

Heck, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that if you studied Oscar Robertson's career you would probably find some years where his backcourt mate was another PG.

It's funny, all this time I never knew The Big O was a guard. I guess I figured at his size and in that time frame that he must have been a forward. In my defense, he was (just) before my time of watching basketball.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not sure exactly what you are claiming here... are there a long list of pairings of two PGs that have been great in the regular season but failed miserably in the playoffs? Unless you count Isaiah Thomas - Joe Dumars and Stockton - Hornacek are there any examples at all -- and neither of these pairs dropped off badly in the playoffs. More recently Dallas used a pairs of PGs together (from among Kidd, Terry and Barea) fairly heavily for a few years, and with success in the postseason - I think Kidd was the only starter in this case and Terry was not considered a PG by many people by that time.

Actually there was a case many years ago... the Knicks started Walt "Clyde" Frazier and Earl "The Pearl" Monroe in their backcourt for 2-3 years near the end of their careers and won at least one championship. These guys were indisputably both PGs.

A few years prior to that the Lakers paired Jerry West and Gail Goodrich in their backcourt and they were a force in the playoffs. Some might argue that West was more of a SG but there were years when he played the point.

Before that the Celtics won titles with Cousy and Bill Sharman as their starting backcourt. I don't think the term PG was in use then but Cousy was the clearly the main playmaker - but IIRC Sharman was the playmaker when Cousy wasn't on the floor.

Heck, I wouldn't be a bit surprised that if you studied Oscar Robertson's career you would probably find some years where his backcourt mate was another PG.

Now if you'd just trot out your list of pairings that give some credence to your claim we could have a serious argument...

Somebody already responded to this type of claim earlier. How many of these players played PG as their primary position in the NBA? Remember, we are not talking about players who have shown the ability to spell other players at the PG position. Have there been PG's who slowed down at the end of their career and played some SG? Sure. Kidd is an example but he spent his prime years as a PG and no team in their right mind would have played him permanently at SG during his prime. That would have been ridiculous. Again, I never said it was impossible only improbable that playing a 2 PG lineup would lead to deep runs into the playoffs let alone a title.

I want both Bledsoe and Dragic on this team. I am not a get rid of Bledsoe person by any stretch. I just think like many others don't think he is worth the Max contract and if that is what he demands...let him go.

 

[Superbone]

Kidd is an example but he spent his prime years as a SG and no team in their right mind would have played him at PG. That would have been ridiculous.

Huh?