Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
#fakenews
Suns fire McD
- Thread starter Hoop Head
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Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
As for Sarver hiring yes men, would any of you guys hire someone who says no all the time? Marry yes. Hire no!
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BC867
Long time Phoenician!
It shouldn't be a question of yes or no. When an investor hires a General Manager to use his expertise to run the operations part of the business, you let him do his job.
Unfortunately, our investor hires GM's with no expertise to be his errand boy while the investor micromanages to feed his ego.
Of course the GM is responsible to run anything involving money by the investor. But establishing team balance is up to the GM.
Chaplin
Better off silent
There is nothing that is evidence that McD was Sarvers errand boy. You keep saying that to fit your narrative that could very well be pure fiction.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
Even if that is true, the alternative is that McDonough made the decisions that got us into this mess. Which would make it a poor hire on Sarver's part.
And now we'll be facing the same scenario with Jones. Either his lack of experience or hesitance to disagree with Sarver, whichever it is.
Personally, my feeling is that the word got out that he will be named as our next GM, because he is already on the payroll and has already proven his loyalty to Sarver.
Robert Sarver is shrewd when it comes to making millions and not giving power to his underlings to do what should be their job.
BTW, we read about Sarver's antics just weeks ago. Other GM's hearing his voice yelling instructions in the background when they were on the phone with our GM. So, yes, there is evidence that the Suns GM is his errand boy. That is not speculation.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Being a poor hire and being an errand boy aren’t necessarily the same thing.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
I know. But whichever is the case was not a good thing. And ultimately, they both would fall on Sarver's decision making.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Difficult to argue with that. Throughout all our losing there has literally been only one constant - Sarver. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but it all eventually heaps at the feet of Sarver.
This x 1000. Look I don’t think Sarver is beelzebub. However, this franchise is unquestionably worse and been consistently so under his tenure. He is the constant.
IMO he is simply a bad owner.
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
You give to give credit to McD for going after Budenholzer as his first choice. That would’ve been a great hire.
I was talking about this elsewhere and it seems we're no closer to knowing why McD was fired than on the day it happened. I think one of the reasons he may have been let go could be Jimmy Butler. I know Butler isn't a great fit here but put yourself in Sarver's shoes. He hires a GM who had been talking about acquiring assets to trade for a star for the last 5 years and seemed to paint all of his deals and rearranging assets, for better or worse. He never built a cohesive team that had a decent starting 5 without someone playing out of position. We definitely never had a real 8-10 man rotation. Our young talent wasn't nearly as good as you would hope after finally buying into the tanking theory also. Compare where we're at to Philly, who was just ran by Bryan Colangelo. Bryan Colangelo and Sarver butted heads when Bryan was here and that caused Jerry's transition to be sped up when he sold the team. Seeing that mess turn around quicker than ours and being done by someone you basically pushed out the door a decade ago had to sting.
Now, in the second offseason in a row, there is a star asking for a trade. This is the exact thing that McD would bring up whenever asked about our plans going forward, "Compiling assets to deal for a star player, it's a league driven by star players and without one it's hard to remain competitive". Last year with Kyrie it was a little easier to play that off as not being able to top Boston's package. With Kyrie asking out of a team that had won a title a year before hand that were still contenders, it didn't seem like the sort of gamble a rebuilding team makes. Butler's a bit different. Minnesota wasn't Cleveland a year removed from a title and 3 consecutive trips to the finals. They had their 1st playoff appearance in 14 years and Butler was largely responsible for that. Of course Sarver would look at that more than the "why" behind it. Could he do the same for us? Who knows, but we should be looking at him, at the least.
If McD says we don't have the young assets to trade then what has he been doing for the last few years other than striking out. The 2016 draft was bad, so was the Len pick, and some other selections along the way. If McD says JJ isn't worth that much then that makes the 2017 draft look worse. This is all happening when options are set to be picked up for Bender and Chriss in addition to Ulis and Reed. If McD says that Butler isn't a good fit, how does he justify some other moves like trading for Bridges or signing Ariza? If Minnesota wanted an unprotected pick, why isn't Bridges worth that since we just dealt one for him, plus another mid 1st round pick? When did fit matter to McD before? I think he was given a short period of time to clean up the mess he created and couldn't do anything with it, except maybe work his way into the Minnesota deal for Jeff Teague, and that was when Sarver made the call to can him.
You tell him to get the star on the market and he comes back and says it will cost X to get Jeff Teague, who is most definitely not a star. Perhaps you find out that Minnesota would also end up with Dragic through the trade and that's why they want to get rid of Teague. To Sarver that's just adding insult to injury since McD is the one who is responsible for the strained relationship that led to Dragic asking out. That's probably what caused him to finally send him packing.
Now, in the second offseason in a row, there is a star asking for a trade. This is the exact thing that McD would bring up whenever asked about our plans going forward, "Compiling assets to deal for a star player, it's a league driven by star players and without one it's hard to remain competitive". Last year with Kyrie it was a little easier to play that off as not being able to top Boston's package. With Kyrie asking out of a team that had won a title a year before hand that were still contenders, it didn't seem like the sort of gamble a rebuilding team makes. Butler's a bit different. Minnesota wasn't Cleveland a year removed from a title and 3 consecutive trips to the finals. They had their 1st playoff appearance in 14 years and Butler was largely responsible for that. Of course Sarver would look at that more than the "why" behind it. Could he do the same for us? Who knows, but we should be looking at him, at the least.
If McD says we don't have the young assets to trade then what has he been doing for the last few years other than striking out. The 2016 draft was bad, so was the Len pick, and some other selections along the way. If McD says JJ isn't worth that much then that makes the 2017 draft look worse. This is all happening when options are set to be picked up for Bender and Chriss in addition to Ulis and Reed. If McD says that Butler isn't a good fit, how does he justify some other moves like trading for Bridges or signing Ariza? If Minnesota wanted an unprotected pick, why isn't Bridges worth that since we just dealt one for him, plus another mid 1st round pick? When did fit matter to McD before? I think he was given a short period of time to clean up the mess he created and couldn't do anything with it, except maybe work his way into the Minnesota deal for Jeff Teague, and that was when Sarver made the call to can him.
You tell him to get the star on the market and he comes back and says it will cost X to get Jeff Teague, who is most definitely not a star. Perhaps you find out that Minnesota would also end up with Dragic through the trade and that's why they want to get rid of Teague. To Sarver that's just adding insult to injury since McD is the one who is responsible for the strained relationship that led to Dragic asking out. That's probably what caused him to finally send him packing.
McD has been getting the blame for Ariza and rightfully so but apparently it was Igor's idea, which isn't all that encouraging. I think that explains why he's been in the top 3 for minutes played this season though. This is actually a few months old but I don't remember seeing it posted here before.
http://www.nba.com/article/2018/07/...or-ariza-provide-talent-leadership-young-team
http://www.nba.com/article/2018/07/...or-ariza-provide-talent-leadership-young-team
I think that clinches it for me: Igor Kokoskov is a bust as a head coach hire.
sdscard4
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Igor=Wilks
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Maybe but I wouldn't read too much into it. At the time I just thought it was GM speak along the lines of "he was number one on our board". Without knowing the full context it's tough to know just how much Igor wanted Ariza.
Phrazbit
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Sarver bought the Suns at, probably, the point in the entire franchise with the greatest potential. A good coach, a ton of great young players, they immediately signed Steve Nash (a Colangelo move).
I cannot imagine how much it must bum Colangelo out that he sold when he did. Not only were the Suns on the brink of being a 5 year title contender but the league has also become, financially, a can't lose investment. I don't know if we win a title with JC instead of Sarver but I know Colangelo wouldn't have been selling picks to save a few million while the team is pushing for a championship. JC sold the Suns because he ran up a monster debt winning the world series with the Dbacks... he sold the Suns for 401 million, I bet now they'd sell for near 2 billion. It's gotta eat at him all the time.
But... we do have Booker and we do have Ayton. Two young players so good that, given time, will be contenders unto themselves.
That said, I'd be overjoyed if Sarver and Arte Moreno bumped into eachother and got drunk.
I cannot imagine how much it must bum Colangelo out that he sold when he did. Not only were the Suns on the brink of being a 5 year title contender but the league has also become, financially, a can't lose investment. I don't know if we win a title with JC instead of Sarver but I know Colangelo wouldn't have been selling picks to save a few million while the team is pushing for a championship. JC sold the Suns because he ran up a monster debt winning the world series with the Dbacks... he sold the Suns for 401 million, I bet now they'd sell for near 2 billion. It's gotta eat at him all the time.
But... we do have Booker and we do have Ayton. Two young players so good that, given time, will be contenders unto themselves.
That said, I'd be overjoyed if Sarver and Arte Moreno bumped into eachother and got drunk.
JCSunsfan
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I would be thrilled with Sarver and Arte going 50/50 on Suns ownership.
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
OK, here's what I read in this forum:
1.Sarver meddles too much he needs to stay out of the day to day of the Suns.
2.How could Sarver sit by and watch McD ruin this franchise?
He meddles too much or not enough?
1.Sarver meddles too much he needs to stay out of the day to day of the Suns.
2.How could Sarver sit by and watch McD ruin this franchise?
He meddles too much or not enough?
Suns_fan69
Official ASFN Lurker
My completely unsubstantiated theory about Sarver is that the reason he routinely hires first time GMs (and coaches by proxy) is because he doesn't want to pay them a lot of money. Not because he's super cheap, although that is probably still true to an extent, but that it's because he can't stand to pay someone more than he gets paid for doing something he thinks he can do. I believe that's also part of the reason for the continued reports about his meddling, it's because he thinks he's smart enough to do it.
Players he'll fork out money for, but GMs, coaches and other front office staff he certainly looks like he lowballs them. I suspect that's part of the reason Budenholzer was a non-starter.
Players he'll fork out money for, but GMs, coaches and other front office staff he certainly looks like he lowballs them. I suspect that's part of the reason Budenholzer was a non-starter.
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
Then he should just go in and do a Jerry Jones. Forget what the fans think. Just say, I am the GM, or President of Basketball operations, or whatever. Then just own it I say!
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Are you serious? There are miles of steps that exist between firing a bad gm and meddling. Hyperbole much?OK, here's what I read in this forum:
1.Sarver meddles too much he needs to stay out of the day to day of the Suns.
2.How could Sarver sit by and watch McD ruin this franchise?
He meddles too much or not enough?
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
It is not that simple. Sarver owns 30% and his group of co-owners own the other 70%. If Arte goes in at 50%, Sarver would then be reduced to 15% and the rest of his group the other 35% between them.
Is it workable with Moreno (and his highest individual investment) being the Managing Partner and Sarver and his boys reduced to silent partners? I don't think so because Sarver and his gang would vote as one, leaving a 50/50 split on any decisions, which goes back to your suggestion of a 50/50. And I don't think Sarver's ego would accept being a 15% owner. Also I can't help but say that, just like the recent history of Point Guard and Power Forward positions, with teammates constantly competing with each to be top dawg, it's time to move past that.
What would motivate Sarver to consider it with the value of the Suns up into the billions? What I would like to see is Arte put together his own group to be in unison on how to restore the Suns reputation and growth and Sarver and his gang count their money and go away.
Yuma
Suns are my Kryptonite!
Just saying, from looking 35,000 feet up, two patterns emerge overall. I didn't think it was hyperbole, I thought it was simplification.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Waaaaay oversimplification.
