Suns Have Extended Barbosa

[JS22]

For those that are upset that Diaw isn't signed yet, what would be the dividing line for you? At what point would you tell Diaw to walk? I don't know what Diaw's asking for, but the Suns rushed into Marion's contract not really knowing if they would get in return what they pay. They ended up giving Marion a superstar contract even though he's not a superstar. He's the best support player in the NBA. Diaw's game is very different, but in comparison to other players, his contributions to the team seem very much like Marion's -- he's not a guy who should be payed to be the focus of a team.

So what's the top dollar for Diaw?

9-10 million.

He's going to be a fringe starter next year / 6th man. His minutes will go down a bit, and I bet his numbers do too. (This is with Amare being healthy, of course.)

 

[Cheesebeef]

9-10 million.

He's going to be a fringe starter next year / 6th man. His minutes will go down a bit, and I bet his numbers do too. (This is with Amare being healthy, of course.)

Short-term thinking - he ain't signing a one year deal - he's signing for 5 - by next year the guy WILL be a starter without a doubt - if he's not the starter already this season and you can bank on that. The guy is going to be along with Amare and the Hawks picks THE go to guys on the next era's team - you've got to have forward thinking as far as contracts go, especially for young guys. You can't just look at what's dire3ctly in front of you - you have to take in the big picture and saying he's going to be a whatever he is THIS year is pretty inconsequential in the big picture (if not being outright wrong).

 

[arthurracoon]

gotta get it done, no matter the money

im with chese on this

 

[Cheesebeef]

gotta get it done, no matter the money

im with chese on this

I wouldn't say "no matter the money", but they CAN NOT low-ball Diaw. By the time he's in year three of his deal, Nash and Marion are both gonna be bye-bye, that's just a fact. The only way we're not looking at serious rebuilding is if we have a solid core going from one eras team to the next - Diaw is part of that core - a solid contributor for the Nash/Marion teams, and a star on the next era's squad. That HAS to be taken into consideration.

As to the above and saying Marion's gone in three years - to head off the "you're a hater and Marion will retire a Sun!" comments - think about this - at age 31, Marion is basically gonna be in the same boat as guys like Nash and Ben Wallace were - past their prime, but still very good player, likely looking for HUGE deals, more than their respectives will offer for fear of the law of diminishing returns, but still a player that a certain team (like say the Suns in 2004 or the Bulls this year) WILL pay for, thinking he's the missing link. There's no doubt in my mind that Marion is a goner after his contract is finished, thus Diaw's contract needs to be looked at not only in the here and now, but in the future as well and as to his importance in BOTH circumstances.

 

[Mainstreet]

gotta get it done, no matter the money

im with chese on this

I can't remember all the particulars, but that rumored trade prior to the draft sending Marion to Seattle for Lewis (an expiring contract), the #10 pick and some other parts (minus Fortson) is not sounding all that bad now, if the Suns cannot/ will not extend Diaw.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You all do understand that signing Diaw to almost anything above what KT is getting next year means that Shawn will be dealt. I just can't see any other way.

Hoopshype has us at 64.6 million in 07-08 WITHOUT Diaw. Even if we are somehow able to move KT we will be over the lux tax, and that's with only 9 players on the payroll.

Our problem is that we have too many very good players, but no one good enough (aside from Amare's 100% return) to put us in a dynasty category.

We need to somehow make sure that our top 3 or so are the best we can get--and reasonably healthy.

 

[Mainstreet]

You all do understand that signing Diaw to almost anything above what KT is getting next year means that Shawn will be dealt. I just can't see any other way.

Hoopshype has us at 64.6 million in 07-08 WITHOUT Diaw. Even if we are somehow able to move KT we will be over the lux tax, and that's with only 9 players on the payroll.

Our problem is that we have too many very good players, but no one good enough (aside from Amare's 100% return) to put us in a dynasty category.

We need to somehow make sure that our top 3 or so are the best we can get--and reasonably healthy.

Just brainstorming here.

If the Suns move Marion after this upcoming season how do you view it? Would he be a traded to a team that could absorb his entire contract with picks back, or would the the Suns trade him for a large one year expiring contract plus rookie contacts back. That hypothetically proposed trade with Seattle with Lewis as an expiring contract is looking better.

I mean, the Suns, particularly Griffin must have a plan. I do not want to see Diaw walk for nothing in return. I think it is vital for the Suns to extend Diaw at whatever the cost because the Suns frontline is too thin and questionable at the 4/5 to risk losing him as a RFA.

However, maybe the Suns do plan to let Diaw walk if he costs too much and build the team's core around Nash, Barbosa, Banks, Bell, Amare and Marion and then utilize their future first round draft picks for depth. I think KT will be moved at least next season with one pick. Or maybe Diaw proves he is near a max player this coming season and the Suns pay him accordingly and trade Marion.

Then the Suns just play out this upcoming season and then decide who they keep... Diaw or Marion (less KT). This is probably the most logical scenario as the Suns already know they cannot keep both Diaw and Marion... and this gives the Suns a season to decide who they keep and make a run at the Championship with both players.

Yes, I am perplexed.

Edit: It also explains why the Suns signed Barbosa now at a reasonable contract because the Suns knew they could not keep both Diaw and Marion beyond this season because of their larger salaries.

 

[George O'Brien]

At the time I suggested that the Lewis deal was probably the most the Suns could expect if they had to move Marion. The problem is that Lewis is not as good as Marion if you trying to win a championship this year and the savings was not that great. Also, there is no assurance Lewis will be affordable once his contract expires.

But I'm not convinced the Suns can expect to do better. There just aren't enough teams with $15 million an change looking for a guy who is the fourth or fifth option on offense no matter how many other things he can do. What they will do is give up a few nice low priced guys and some expiring contracts. The price can get pretty ugly to save one year of contract costs if they take bad contracts back next summer.

I certainly hope that everyone who has calling for Marion to be traded applauds the horrible deal they'll get if it does happen. Believe me, it will be awful and there won't be any huge free agency cap money as a consolation prize.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not certain he could be a #1, but Marion could easily be a #3 and probably a #2 on the right team. He's still our #3 option, no matter how much we tout the skills of Boris Diaw.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not certain he could be a #1, but Marion could easily be a #3 and probably a #2 on the right team. He's still our #3 option, no matter how much we tout the skills of Boris Diaw.

1. Stoudemire
2 Bell
3 Nash

Marion will get a lot of points, but he won't be a major option in the half court offense. As many have said, part of Marion's value is that he can get his points without having the ball in his hands all the time.

 

[Chaplin]

1. Stoudemire
2 Bell
3 Nash

Marion will get a lot of points, but he won't be a major option in the half court offense. As many have said, part of Marion's value is that he can get his points without having the ball in his hands all the time.

Bell is the #2 option? Over Marion? Come on George, you can't be seriously believing that mumbo jumbo. We're not talking specific plays here, we're talking in general. Kevin Garnett isn't the #1 option in every single play the Wolves run.

 

[F-Dog]

5 years 40 million (if indeed the offer) for a proven playoff contributor, and a player who's ceiling is as high as any other big man is both laughable and depressing.

I respectfully disagree.

If there's one player from the previous year of RFAs who resembles Diaw, it's Tayshaun Prince. Prince is a wonderful talent--posts up smaller players, shoots over bigger ones, good help defender, knows how to play, and even has a signature skill, lockdown perimeter D--but he's a complementary player, not a star, and he'll probably always be one. In the same spot last summer, Tayshaun wound up re-signing for 5/47, which everybody seemed to agree was fair for both sides.

If the Suns are looking to pay Diaw 5/47, and his agent comes in demanding 5/60 (and why wouldn't he), why shouldn't the Suns start by offering 5/40? Particularly when it's still an open question how effective Diaw can be in another system?




Also, I'd like to get some things clear about Nene's contract. First, 6/60 is actually less than 5/50--$350,000 per year less, give or take. The first five years of a 6/60 contract is worth about $48m, so again, Nene is looking a paycheck that's very similar to Tayshaun's.


Second, Nene's contract doesn't have much to do with Diaw's, never has, never will. The players Diaw's agent will be looking at are Kirk Hinrich and Josh Howard, the other role players extraordinaire from Diaw's draft class.

The fact that Howard and Hinrich haven't re-signed, either, is probably the main stumbling block in the Diaw discussions. Obviously, Diaw will sign for less than the other two, but if it's too much less, the NBA Player's Association will demand that Diaw's agent's clients drop him immediately for Mark Bartelstein.

 

[F-Dog]

OK, one more thing, about Marion.


If Diaw is the Suns' Tayshaun, Marion is their Ben Wallace--not a great individual defender, but his combination of blocks, steals and contested rebounds is much greater than anybody else at his position.

Everybody's comfortable with the idea that D'Antoni's system works and that the Phoenix Suns are a good team, but the fact is, they've been playing all this time with this constant advantage, a slow trickle of free possessions that Marion provides for them (in addition to his regular work, as a role player on offense and the team's most versatile man defender). Take that crutch away, and nobody knows what will happen...which is why D'Antoni is understandably hesitant to deal Marion.


On the other side of the equation, D'Antoni knows for a fact the team can be successful without Diaw. And, Diaw's replacement is already signed to the team long-term (with a max contract, no less).

 

[Cheesebeef]

I respectfully disagree.

If there's one player from the previous year of RFAs who resembles Diaw, it's Tayshaun Prince. Prince is a wonderful talent--posts up smaller players, shoots over bigger ones, good help defender, knows how to play, and even has a signature skill, lockdown perimeter D--but he's a complementary player, not a star, and he'll probably always be one. In the same spot last summer, Tayshaun wound up re-signing for 5/47, which everybody seemed to agree was fair for both sides.

If the Suns are looking to pay Diaw 5/47, and his agent comes in demanding 5/60 (and why wouldn't he), why shouldn't the Suns start by offering 5/40? Particularly when it's still an open question how effective Diaw can be in another system?

yeah - gonna have to disagree with you here, but not by much - Prince is a decent player, but he ain't someone you can ride like Diaw showed against Dallas. He's taller than Diaw, but he's not the rebounder Boris is 5.3 to 6.9 (a sizable discrency) and he's not even CLOSE to the passer Diaw is at 6 assts to 3 assts (a MAJOR discrepency). His points per game is just over one point higher - so it's a wash there. He's a very good defensive player on the perimeter, but Diaw's no slouch there either, but I'll give the edge to Prince. However, on offense, it ain't even close as Diaw can create offense for himself AND others, now you throw in his ability to rebound better as well and block shots marginally better and it adds up to more than Prince. Prince got 5/47 - all that says to me is Diaw should be getting at least 5 for 50.

Making the case even more than this is that what you see with Prince is probably pretty much what you get after five years in the league - with Diaw, we're just seeing him scratch the surface.

 

[Cheesebeef]

1. Stoudemire
2 Bell
3 Nash

Marion will get a lot of points, but he won't be a major option in the half court offense. As many have said, part of Marion's value is that he can get his points without having the ball in his hands all the time.

this is ridiculous - options have to dow ith guys who initiate the offense or score - when Healthy, Amare is number one, Nash is number two and Diaw is three - those are the first three option because each one of them can do what an offense needs to do - either take the man off the dribble, shoot the ball or create offense for someone else. Everyone else on our team is wholly dependent on those guys creating shots for them (except for Barbosa).

To say Bell is our number two option is, well, par for the course for George.

 

[George O'Brien]

Actually I think KT will start, but when Diaw is in the lineup he's above Marion and Bell as an offensive options. Still I think of Bell as major offensive option, particularly as the season wore on.

Why do I see Bell as a major option? The Suns run "plays" designed to get the ball to their best outside shooter, which is Bell. They don't run plays to get the ball to Marion to take outside shots -- or at least shouldn't.

Three point shooting is a huge part of the Suns offense. Last season, 28.4% of their total shots were three pointers. Bell led the team in three point attempts 446 and hit 197 of them for 44.2%.

Marion certainly gets a lot more shots than Bell because he's lead man on the break and from offensive rebounds. But the Suns don't run many half court plays for him and his three point shooting of 33.1% is part of the reason why.

 

[boisesuns]

Bell is the #2 option? Over Marion? Come on George, you can't be seriously believing that mumbo jumbo. We're not talking specific plays here, we're talking in general. Kevin Garnett isn't the #1 option in every single play the Wolves run.

I agree bell is not really the #2 option for offense, but at the end of the game, i'm going to Bell more than Marion for the last shot.

 

[Joe Mama]

yeah - gonna have to disagree with you here, but not by much - Prince is a decent player, but he ain't someone you can ride like Diaw showed against Dallas. He's taller than Diaw, but he's not the rebounder Boris is 5.3 to 6.9 (a sizable discrency) and he's not even CLOSE to the passer Diaw is at 6 assts to 3 assts (a MAJOR discrepency). His points per game is just over one point higher - so it's a wash there. He's a very good defensive player on the perimeter, but Diaw's no slouch there either, but I'll give the edge to Prince. However, on offense, it ain't even close as Diaw can create offense for himself AND others, now you throw in his ability to rebound better as well and block shots marginally better and it adds up to more than Prince. Prince got 5/47 - all that says to me is Diaw should be getting at least 5 for 50.

Making the case even more than this is that what you see with Prince is probably pretty much what you get after five years in the league - with Diaw, we're just seeing him scratch the surface.

Regarding rebounds, Prince would easily grab that extra 1.6 rebounds per game if he switched places with Boris Diaw. There are more possessions in a Phoenix Suns game, and in Detroit Prince was surrounded by better rebounders.

Offensively I like Boris Diaw better as a distributor. I think Boris Diaw is an average/good defender, but Prince is significantly better. Prince is also a significantly better shooter. I like Boris Diaw better in the post, but not by much.

Honestly, if I was given the choice between Tayshaun Prince and Boris Diaw for the same money I would really have to think about it. I'm not sure which one I would rather have. Please remember that Boris Diaw is my favorite player in the NBA also. I certainly think it's fair to say that their contract should be close as far as player value is concerned. The problem is that Boris Diaw is getting signed this year, and players seem to get a little more each year.

Joe

 

[Mainstreet]

At the time I suggested that the Lewis deal was probably the most the Suns could expect if they had to move Marion. The problem is that Lewis is not as good as Marion if you trying to win a championship this year and the savings was not that great. Also, there is no assurance Lewis will be affordable once his contract expires.

But I'm not convinced the Suns can expect to do better. There just aren't enough teams with $15 million an change looking for a guy who is the fourth or fifth option on offense no matter how many other things he can do. What they will do is give up a few nice low priced guys and some expiring contracts. The price can get pretty ugly to save one year of contract costs if they take bad contracts back next summer.

I certainly hope that everyone who has calling for Marion to be traded applauds the horrible deal they'll get if it does happen. Believe me, it will be awful and there won't be any huge free agency cap money as a consolation prize.

I have never been a proponent of trading Marion but that proposed Seattle trade (if it was actually on the table) was awfully attractive if Fortson could have been left out. I would have seriously considered the trade and looked at Lewis as a potential expiring contract because the extra parts were that attractive to me. Now, if I could only remember what they were. Yes, age or stupidity is catching up with me.

I think the Seattle ingredients might have included Lewis, the #10 pick and Ridnour and perhaps something else. Fortson's name was also mentioned but obviously he would have not been playing here in Phoenix. Anyway, I agree with George, Phoenix could probably not expect more from a Marion trade, especially if they're trying to lose salary. Also Lewis could have been given a test drive this season so to speak and still given Phoenix a chance at winning a Championship.

Now, back to Diaw, I want the Suns to extend Diaw as I think the Suns could quite possibly lose him if he becomes a RFA. I'm not sure what my top offer would be, but something between 50-55 million sounds close. The Tayshaun Prince analogy sounds interesting.

 

[George O'Brien]

Diaw or Prince? This is such a classic contrast in styles it is all but impossible to compare. However, the problem is that Prince has been in the league longer and we don't really know how much Diaw's game will improve.

The main issues with Boris is going to be his rebounding and defense. These are both strength issues, so I'm comfortable he will keep developing. Still, I'm not so sure he's going to be a top rebounder this coming season.

This past season, Boris averaged only .192 rebounds per minute and only .168 during the playoffs. His best series was against the Mavs and that was only .216 per minute. This ranked him 61st amoung players who played enough to qualify by nba.com http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?season=22005&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=Y&position=0&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=7&splitDD=All+Teams&pager.offset=50 Kurt Thomas averaged .293 rebounds per minute and Amare's career rebounding is at .257 per minute. (NBA.com now converts per minute number into per 40 minutes, which is Diaw at 6.7, KT at 11.7 and Amare's career at 10.3.)

 

[ASUCHRIS]

this is ridiculous - options have to dow ith guys who initiate the offense or score - when Healthy, Amare is number one, Nash is number two and Diaw is three - those are the first three option because each one of them can do what an offense needs to do - either take the man off the dribble, shoot the ball or create offense for someone else. Everyone else on our team is wholly dependent on those guys creating shots for them (except for Barbosa).

Exactly

 

[Errntknght]

George, "Marion certainly gets a lot more shots than Bell because he's lead man on the break and from offensive rebounds. But the Suns don't run many half court plays for him and his three point shooting of 33.1% is part of the reason why."

Marion also gets more shots than Bell in the halfcourt because he moves much better without the ball - this past year in particular. Next year, assuming Amare plays major minutes, Marion will have less space to move in and the most available space will be on the baseline which Shawn has ignored for several years. The net result is that he is likely to return to hanging out on the perimeter more and in that case Bell moves above him as a viable scoring option.

Hopefully, it won't work out that way but its certainly a worry. Shawn is going to have to wake up to the possibilities of cutting and back-dooring when Diaw has the ball at the high post. If the reports are on target about Amare looking to pass much more than before, cutting when he has the ball will also be a good idea. Bell could benefit from the same thing though Marion has the most to gain since he's a better finisher at the hoop and pretty useless as an 3pt shooter.

 

[Joe Mama]

Diaw or Prince? This is such a classic contrast in styles it is all but impossible to compare. However, the problem is that Prince has been in the league longer and we don't really know how much Diaw's game will improve.

The main issues with Boris is going to be his rebounding and defense. These are both strength issues, so I'm comfortable he will keep developing. Still, I'm not so sure he's going to be a top rebounder this coming season.

This past season, Boris averaged only .192 rebounds per minute and only .168 during the playoffs. His best series was against the Mavs and that was only .216 per minute. This ranked him 61st amoung players who played enough to qualify by nba.com http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?season=22005&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=Y&position=0&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=7&splitDD=All+Teams&pager.offset=50 Kurt Thomas averaged .293 rebounds per minute and Amare's career rebounding is at .257 per minute. (NBA.com now converts per minute number into per 40 minutes, which is Diaw at 6.7, KT at 11.7 and Amare's career at 10.3.)

The single biggest issue for Boris Diaw is his shooting. If he had a consistent jump shot that he trusted the Phoenix Suns could have beaten the Dallas Mavericks without Amare Stoudemire, Kurt Thomas, or Raja Bell. Until he gets a consistent shot his defender should end most likely will play him like Diop on the perimeter. This allows them to stop his penetration as well as play helped defense around the basket.

His defense and rebounding will improve as long as he continues to put out the same amount of effort in those areas. His jump shot should be his primary focus though.

Joe

 

[George O'Brien]

It looked to me like Boris made huge strides with his mid range game as the season went on. I think he'll increase his confidence as well as his range, though that will take a lot longer.

 

[Joe Mama]

It looked to me like Boris made huge strides with his mid range game as the season went on. I think he'll increase his confidence as well as his range, though that will take a lot longer.

I don't think he made big strides much less huge strides. He's pretty consistent shooting jumpers as long as there is 10 feet of space between him and his nearest defender. He needs to make defenders pay for playing way off him.

Joe