Suns hire Frank Vogel as next head coach

[1982baskets]

Sometimes you go for things, and they just don't work out. The silly people overtreact, the smart people wait until the right time to correct the mistakes.

Hiring Vogel was not a mistake, the mistake was giving him this roster. When you saw Durant on the Nets you saw exactly the same issues. Durant is a max player, Booker is a max player and so is Beal. This leaves you with a roster without much talent to build around. The only way it would work is all 3 max players play together and well. We just haven't seen that, due to injuries. We don't even know if they work. The Nets had Kyrie, Durant and Harden, yet struggled to win games. They just never played together. Didn't even have time to develop chemistry.

To evaluate everything without even giving the 3 main players a significant time to make it work, is weird. However even then, I don't think we have enough depth and balance to win a ring with this squad. Similar to the Nets, this is a top heavy situation. Not like the Warriors, where KD joined a team with talent spread across each position.

The best thing to do right now is wait for a trade and opportunity to bring in a better final product. I am not sure what is available out there, but the team needs more help. Number 1 thing they need is a point guard it seems. How can they get a starting level point guard while still keeping Nurk. Would Grayson/Goodwin/second rounders fetch you a starting caliber point guard? Even if we got a PG to come off the bench in a sixth man role, it would do wonders for this team.

 

[wagon mound 464]

As loses mount up and Matt I. seeing more unsold tickets for home games due to unsatisfied fans, his wheels have to be turning.

What will he decide?

 

[1982baskets]

As loses mount up and Matt I. seeing more unsold tickets for home games due to unsatisfied fans, his wheels have to be turning.

What will he decide?

First thing he should do is look back to all the best Suns teams always having a great PG leader. Nash, Paul. He didn't look at that. The way we just off loaded Paul, even Payne, never made sense to me. We didn't need to keep Paul. He was getting old and broken down. But Paul was a leader, and a closer. We don't have one. Book is not that type of player. Book is a scorer, and needs to be more free. He can do it in stretches, but not full time. He is not Lebron. He is more a SG/wing scorer who can create if doubled hard. Not set your offense up type.

So we need to get a PG in badly. Matt is wiling to pay. I wonder what we could fetch with a combo of Eubanks/Grayson (expiring contracts) maybe Nas Little, plus second rounders. Maybe we can get a point guard or at the very very least a combo guard, if the team on the other side wants to shed salary.

Some names in that salary range - Anfernee Simmons. Jordan Clarkson. Malcom Brogdon. Terry Rozier. Spencer Dinwiddie. Buddy Hield. Marcus Smart. Collin Sexton. Markelle Fultz.

Not say I like all of them. just in the salary range of 15 to 20M where we may be able to do a 3 or 4 for 1 type of swap.

 

[Yuma]

I know people make a big deal about not keeping Cam Payne. He certainly had his hot and cold streaks with us. I can only imagine the coaches didn't see the value of keeping him, when you are going to play Gordon, Allen, and at the time it looked like Watanabe, Okogie, Goodwin, and of course Beal were going to get high minutes. Throw Bates-Diop in there. I am not counting the Centers, because they are playing no matter what. It looked at the time like Cam wasn't going to sniff the court. Plus you never knew if he was an a heater, or was hurt, or in a slump. You need a guy like CP3 prior to his birthday slump that was reliable and a set up guy. He just aged too fast overnight.

In theory, Okogie SHOULD be the answer. Our on ball defense stopping the opposing point has been weak. That seems just like a job for Okogie, or even Goodwin for that matter. It's just those two always end up the open shooter by other teams, and they are not making teams pay for helping off them.

We need a fifth guy that can shoot AND play defense. Ideally we have a guy that stops the opposing PG. So out of the list above, by 1982baskets, we need a guy that can D and shoot.

 

[95pro]

I know people make a big deal about not keeping Cam Payne. He certainly had his hot and cold streaks with us. I can only imagine the coaches didn't see the value of keeping him, when you are going to play Gordon, Allen, and at the time it looked like Watanabe, Okogie, Goodwin, and of course Beal were going to get high minutes. Throw Bates-Diop in there. I am not counting the Centers, because they are playing no matter what. It looked at the time like Cam wasn't going to sniff the court. Plus you never knew if he was an a heater, or was hurt, or in a slump. You need a guy like CP3 prior to his birthday slump that was reliable and a set up guy. He just aged too fast overnight.

In theory, Okogie SHOULD be the answer. Our on ball defense stopping the opposing point has been weak. That seems just like a job for Okogie, or even Goodwin for that matter. It's just those two always end up the open shooter by other teams, and they are not making teams pay for helping off them.

We need a fifth guy that can shoot AND play defense. Ideally we have a guy that stops the opposing PG. So out of the list above, by 1982baskets, we need a guy that can D and shoot.

Cam Payne could have been an on-the-ball defender. And could shoot. And pg.

 

[Proximo]

So I just watched a clip for PHNX where Flex says his sources are saying some of the players are Kevin Young loyalists and some are Vogel loyalists and it is causing a divide.

If that is true 1 or both needs to go ASAP.

 

[elindholm]

So I just watched a clip for PHNX where Flex says his sources are saying some of the players are Kevin Young loyalists and some are Vogel loyalists and it is causing a divide.

If that is true 1 or both needs to go ASAP.

How can anyone other than Booker be a "loyalist" to anyone in the organization? The other players all just got here.

 

[95pro]

How can anyone other than Booker be a "loyalist" to anyone in the organization? The other players all just got here.

It’s easy pick a leader. Apparently there are two leaders in the clubhouse for the players. One for defense and one for offense, which was exact the role they were hired for.
I’ve alluded to the too many cooks in the kitchen already, and one needs to go. Who is more at fault right now, idk. Maybe Vogel.

 

[Yuma]

How can anyone other than Booker be a "loyalist" to anyone in the organization? The other players all just got here.

Meaning KD? LOL!

 

[Proximo]

How can anyone other than Booker be a "loyalist" to anyone in the organization? The other players all just got here.

It can easily be true since 90% of the team has no experience with either - they just got here this season.

 

[1982baskets]

I do feel it wasn't the best choice to go with someone who interviewed and was deemed a favorite to land the job on the same staff as the person who beat him. I didn't follow the offseason coaching situation on a daily basis, but it did seem that Young was someone they were seriously considering, however Frank and the Ishbia hit it off and Ishbia wanted Frank.

Cam Payne could have been an on-the-ball defender. And could shoot. And pg.

He was at least a legit NBA level rotation PG. Our top 7 last night.

F/SG Durant
SG Booker
G/F Beal
G/F Allen
SG Gordon
C Nurk
F Metu

We're now hoping Saben Lee becomes a quality PG. We don't have a proven NBA rotational level PG and it clearly impacts the team. There's been teams that have had success with this big 3 or non-PG star studded lineup. Many teams have even won titles this way. But they at least had a starting level or quality PG within their top 7. We're a team full of shooting guards, wings, and bigs. Saben Lee is our best hope at the moment.

 

[95pro]

I do feel it wasn't the best choice to go with someone who interviewed and was deemed a favorite to land the job on the same staff as the person who beat him. I didn't follow the offseason coaching situation on a daily basis, but it did seem that Young was someone they were seriously considering, however Frank and the Ishbia hit it off and Ishbia wanted Frank.


He was at least a legit NBA level rotation PG. Our top 7 last night.

F/SG Durant
SG Booker
G/F Beal
G/F Allen
SG Gordon
C Nurk
F Metu

We're now hoping Saben Lee becomes a quality PG. We don't have a proven NBA rotational level PG and it clearly impacts the team. There's been teams that have had success with this big 3 or non-PG star studded lineup. Many teams have even won titles this way. But they at least had a starting level or quality PG within their top 7. We're a team full of shooting guards, wings, and bigs. Saben Lee is our best hope at the moment.

Right now Saben is catching other rosters by surprise. Once they actually scout him they’ll realize he can’t shoot just like JO. I couldn’t believe some Hornets closed out hard on him last night.

 

[1982baskets]

Once again, say it's worth saying. We've gotten 3 games out of the Beal/Durant/Booker trio. This team is not very deep or talented after them, and to have only gotten 3 full games out of them. In those 3 games, the team is 2-1, and had a lead going into the fourth Q vs the Nets.

What has hurt us will continue to hurt us unless we have all 3 stars playing well. Lack of a PG and depth. You can probably get away with it if Beal and Book both play well in the same game, as you'll have someone on throughout the game. So when the fourth quarter comes around, you're still effective.

But if Beal isn't on (Or Book) then we just don't have the weapons to keep a high octane offense going. Now the other way to become elite is to have an elite defense. We lack the weapons for that. Top 6 players on this team (not in order) Nurk, Durant, Beal, Allen, Book, Gordon. Not a lot of defensive talent there. Especially missing a quality 3andD wing and a more athletic 5 that can come out and defend the perimeter.

Which is why I don't think this is Frank Vogel's coaching. I have seen some consistent efforts from the staff. I think this a good team, but not a great team. Blaming the coaches, would be a mistake. We first need to get our rotation and top 7 players right.

 

[Chaplin]

As was discussed when the trade happened, a healthy Beal makes the addition of another point guard far down the list of priorities.

Right now our biggest issue is rebounding with turnovers a close second. But we've already seen a big improvement in that area since Beal came back.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Enjoying the tinkering - enjoyed Bol Bol and his impressive production - but man - I think there's a clear message being sent to the entire bench - when Vogel asks you to do something you do it - can't hit a shot? You better rebound play defense and not turn the ball over

 

[Yuma]

Enjoying the tinkering - enjoyed Bol Bol and his impressive production - but man - I think there's a clear message being sent to the entire bench - when Vogel asks you to do something you do it - can't hit a shot? You better rebound play defense and not turn the ball over

I just liked how it reset the other squad. They were trying to take it to the hole every play, and Bol Bol comes in and definitely altered a few shots. Suddenly, their guys were hesitating more before just plowing into the lane. So some size did make a difference. Gotta keep that in mind if we make a trade before the deadline.

 

[BirdGangThing]

I just liked how it reset the other squad. They were trying to take it to the hole every play, and Bol Bol comes in and definitely altered a few shots. Suddenly, their guys were hesitating more before just plowing into the lane. So some size did make a difference. Gotta keep that in mind if we make a trade before the deadline.

yessir and that's the thing - Bol Bol figuring out his roll - I don't think Vogel had him in there to shoot threes or speed up the tempo with fast breaks - pretty sure Vogel wanted rebounding and rim protection which Bol Bol also provided

 

[95pro]

yessir and that's the thing - Bol Bol figuring out his roll - I don't think Vogel had him in there to shoot threes or speed up the tempo with fast breaks - pretty sure Vogel wanted rebounding and rim protection which Bol Bol also provided

Bol wanted to shoot those 3's he was open for last night against the blazers so bad, but he did the right thing and made some plays happen. Making that first one helped open things up.

 

[1982baskets]

Bol Bol and even Metu to an extent show what some length can do on this squad. The issue is we just don't have these long athletic players who can make an impact on the glass and defense on a consistent basis. Mainly due to their inability to score on the other end.

The choice for the coaching is always should I go with some offense or defense. Nurk, Grayson and Gordon will give you offense, enough around Beal/KD/Book. What about defense? On the flip, you run players like Metu, Okogie, Bol Bol (etc) and now teams double Book/Beal that much more. Our offense isn't as strong.

I actually find it impressive that we're sitting 15th in the NBA on defense as of today.

 

[Yuma]

Bol Bol and even Metu to an extent show what some length can do on this squad. The issue is we just don't have these long athletic players who can make an impact on the glass and defense on a consistent basis. Mainly due to their inability to score on the other end.

The choice for the coaching is always should I go with some offense or defense. Nurk, Grayson and Gordon will give you offense, enough around Beal/KD/Book. What about defense? On the flip, you run players like Metu, Okogie, Bol Bol (etc) and now teams double Book/Beal that much more. Our offense isn't as strong.

I actually find it impressive that we're sitting 15th in the NBA on defense as of today.

Old school talent evaluators and coaches used to say, "You can't coach size." Bol Bol is a polarizing fan topic. I am skeptical, but to give him his due, last game the game changed when he came in. Guys were hesitating to drive the lane on us to see where he was. That gave the guys guarding them enough time to react and get in position.

 

[Hoop Head]

Bol produced the other night but Vogel switching up the rotation in the middle of a winning streak was foolish. Azubuike was playing great as Nurkic's backup. I understand KD went out but he should have changed as little as possible to adapt rather than making big changes. Where is Saban Lee also? Vogel isn't a good coach.

For those who say this roster doesn't match his style, I don't care. Good coaches adapt to the teams they have. They dont force the players to fit their system. There's give and take and we've seen little to believe in Vogel's ability to build a system around our best players. I know the big 3 haven't played a lot together but the supporting cast has largely been the same all year and he hasn't figured that part out yet.

 

[Chaplin]

Bol produced the other night but Vogel switching up the rotation in the middle of a winning streak was foolish. Azubuike was playing great as Nurkic's backup. I understand KD went out but he should have changed as little as possible to adapt rather than making big changes. Where is Saban Lee also? Vogel isn't a good coach.

For those who say this roster doesn't match his style, I don't care. Good coaches adapt to the teams they have. They dont force the players to fit their system. There's give and take and we've seen little to believe in Vogel's ability to build a system around our best players. I know the big 3 haven't played a lot together but the supporting cast has largely been the same all year and he hasn't figured that part out yet.

If the roster doesn't match his style he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

 

[Hoop Head]

If the roster doesn't match his style he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

That too. This stop seems to resemble his Orlando stint much more than Indiana or LA. He seems like a nice guy but ultimately he's probably best as an assistant. Since he has a title on his resume he'll continue to get opportunities though. Unfortunately we were the first suckers to hire him post Lakers.

 

[clyde2tw]

Actually, I like coach Vogel's actions the last couple games. They are not all perfect but he seems to adapt to the situations better. In this game, Book stopped dominating the ball from the beginning of possessions, and he stuck to Bol to end the game. He may have pulled Okogie too early though as we couldn't stop KL after that. We were in the deep hole because of bad defense from the starters. Book in particular was abused repeatedly by everyone from PG to Mann, while on offense they figured his point guard tendency out made him commit many TOs and generally not productive as the primary initiator.
Vogel's problem is he gave chances to Yuta and Goodwin for too long that were toxic both on O and D, which cost us several games. Now he has much shorter leash and sit players when better options are out there. He sat Nurk in the final min., maybe for the first time. Metu and KBD also got fewer court time than maybe expected, not to mention Azubuike.

 

[taz02]

A lot of tinkering 34 games in.

I'm no expert and I know injuries and new players play a big part but doesn't feel like anything is figured out or set.

Seems like the strategy is hope the supporting guys hit 3's and Book and KD score 30 each.