Suns hire Frank Vogel as next head coach

[Yuma]

I would expect Ishbia to at least have a very stern talking to with Vogel and staff. Or at the very least, an explanation on how this mess is going to be fixed. If no acceptable answers are forthcoming, it would be time to find management/coaches that could be brought in to change the predicament. My fear is like I said earlier, everyone is telling Ishbia to not meddle and he's listening to them.

 

[Raindog]

My fear is like I said earlier, everyone is telling Ishbia to not meddle and he's listening to them.

Possibly. It could be also that egos are at stake. I don't know whose bright idea hiring Vogel was. Ishbia, Isiah, Jones... who knows? But whoever it was is probably pretty invested in trying not to look like a dummy who made a big mistake now.

So if it was Ishbia, then Vogel is probably going to get a long opportunity before the plug is pulled. If it was James Jones (and I hope it was), Ishbia is probably far more likely to cut losses (and hopefully can Jones in the process).

If it was Isiah or someone else, well hopefully Ishbia will stop taking his/their advice on anything.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would expect Ishbia to at least have a very stern talking to with Vogel and staff. Or at the very least, an explanation on how this mess is going to be fixed. If no acceptable answers are forthcoming, it would be time to find management/coaches that could be brought in to change the predicament. My fear is like I said earlier, everyone is telling Ishbia to not meddle and he's listening to them.

I don't get it? What makes you think Ishbia isn't meddling?

As for fixing this mess, I don't believe it's fixable in the short term (not for several years) unless it's actually because of the coaching. And to me, coaching is rarely the problem in pro basketball when a team is playing this poorly.

 

[1982baskets]

I don't know how anyone thinks it's on Vogel. Monty's team has lost 25 straight. He's never won a title. Vogel won a title with the Lakers, and they've not been better without him (They're right there with us in the standings despite having better players).

Just look at the roster and tell me where the points are going to come from, and where the defense is going to? We know Durant and Book will get theirs. Who after them is a consistent threat on offense? Probably Nurk. What about defense? Who can give you defense but also respectable enough 3 point shooting around Book and Durant, and Nurk, if you deem him the third best player.

When Vogel got hired, one of the first moves he made was connect with CP3. He wanted to coach him. He wanted to coach Ayton. Instead he's having to end up coaching a roster without a point guard, without Bradley Beal, and without any depth. 5 or 6 guys out of our top 10 are veteran minimum players. That's when happens when you build top heavy rosters. Beal, seems to be on decline. 2 of the top 3 stars we've traded for to form a top heavy roster, they're past their athletic prime.

Even then, if Beal had been healthy, maybe this would have worked. We just won't know, because Beal has been unhealthy most of his last 3 seasons. 40/82 games, 50/82 games and now so far 6/28 games. You can't evaluate a coach when you give him this kind of situation. If I told you before the season that the Suns would have Book 19/28, and Beal 6/28 games, and the big 3 only play 2 games together. What's our record through 28 games with a brand new roster ....? Not many would say better than 14-14. When the Suns made the Finals or had a 60 win level rosrer, they had a lot more talent spread out than this squad. CP3, Book, Bridges, Ayton, Crowder, Cam, Payne. I would have liked to have seen Frank coach a team like that.

 

[Sparky16]

This worthless POS and his clown bubble trophy needs to be canned by the end of the day today

 

[Hoop Head]

ESPN updated their trade asset article where they list all the pieces a team has and what can be moved. Not looking pretty for us but I'm sure most everyone knew that. It's nice to see it all spelled out by a reputable source though so if anyone has any questions this should answer them.

Here is the Suns portion,

Trade targets, draft capital and big questions facing every NBA team

The NBA's trade deadline is less than two months away and teams are already looking at their rosters, lining up what they have and what they need.

www.espn.com

Front office discussions: Does Phoenix get a chance to evaluate this roster when healthy prior to the deadline so it can determine undiscovered needs? Is a healthy Bradley Beal comparable to a trade deadline acquisition? Beal has played six games this season. Should Phoenix target a point guard like Tyus Jones at the cost of Grayson Allen and Nassir Little? Besides their own players, the Suns have two trade exceptions ($6.5M and $5M) and three second-round picks. Once the trade deadline is over, the trade exceptions are no longer available in the offseason because of the second apron rules. What is the priority of need for the final roster and two-way spot? The Suns are allowed to also sign a player bought out of his contract, but only if his preexisting salary was less than $12.4 million.

Off the board: Durant ($47.6M, UFA 2026), Devin Booker ($36M, UFA 2028) and Beal ($46.7M, Team 2026, no trade clause)

Players with trade value: Allen ($8.9M, UFA 2024) and Little ($6.2M, UFA 2027)

Free agents in July: Allen (UFA), Eric Gordon ($3.2M, Player), Josh Okogie ($2.8M, Player), Damion Lee ($2.5M, Player), Keita Bates-Diop ($2.3M, Player), Drew Eubanks ($2.3M, Player), Yuta Watanabe ($2.3M, Player), Bol Bol ($2M, UFA), Chimezie Metu ($2M, UFA) and Jordan Goodwin ($1.9M, Team)

Controllable contracts: None

Long-term salary: Jusuf Nurkic ($16.9M, UFA 2026)

Draft capital: Washington has the right to swap firsts with Phoenix in 2024 if the Wizards' first (if 13-30) to New York is not conveyed. Phoenix can trade its 2024 first but not until the night of the draft. The Wizards also have the right to swap firsts in 2026 (if 9-30), 2028 (if 9-30) and 2030. Orlando then has the right to swap its 2026 first with the less favorable from Phoenix or Washington. Memphis has the right to swap the less favorable firsts of Phoenix and Washington in 2030. The Suns owe Brooklyn unprotected firsts in 2025, 2027 and 2029. Brooklyn also has the right to swap firsts with Phoenix in 2028. The Wizards then have the right to swap the least favorable first from the Nets, Suns or the 76ers first in 2028. Phoenix has three second-round picks available to trade.

The finances: The Suns are $21.5M over the luxury tax and projected to pay a $50.7M tax penalty. The Suns have four trade exceptions ($6.5M, $5M, $1.8M and $1.1M).

 

[Yuma]

ESPN updated their trade asset article where they list all the pieces a team has and what can be moved. Not looking pretty for us but I'm sure most everyone knew that. It's nice to see it all spelled out by a reputable source though so if anyone has any questions this should answer them.

Here is the Suns portion,

Trade targets, draft capital and big questions facing every NBA team

The NBA's trade deadline is less than two months away and teams are already looking at their rosters, lining up what they have and what they need.

www.espn.com

Thanks for posting this!

We have one good, and possibly two average moves here. We need that solid fifth starter. Whether that is PG or PF. Someone that moves the meter for us. We probably only play a good 7-8 guys in the playoffs anyways. That's as far as the talent will go to help us. The elephant in the room is why this team is so unmotivated and how coaching affects that.

 

[GatorAZ]

A lot of cooks in the kitchen…
.

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[Yuma]

A lot of cooks in the kitchen…
.

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In all honesty, that's probably how most franchises roll. LeBron has no say in the Lakers? The Greek Freak just sits silently by? The owners all get input from all over. My question would be, is there an owner in the NBA that blindly follows his GM only?

 

[Chaplin]

In all honesty, that's probably how most franchises roll. LeBron has no say in the Lakers? The Greek Freak just sits silently by? The owners all get input from all over. My question would be, is there an owner in the NBA that blindly follows his GM only?

Philly

Last year I would have also said Golden State

 

[AzStevenCal]

In all honesty, that's probably how most franchises roll. LeBron has no say in the Lakers? The Greek Freak just sits silently by? The owners all get input from all over. My question would be, is there an owner in the NBA that blindly follows his GM only?

Show me a franchise where the person in the position to do that job can be overruled or outvoted by 6 others and I'll show you a dysfunctional organization. It's one thing to accept input from a key player or two, it's another thing altogether to have relatives and friends holding power over your GM. We're in trouble. Too many cooks is always a problem, too many clueless cooks takes the situation nuclear.

 

[Yuma]

In all honesty, we don't know who has power in this situation. At the end of the day, Ishbia does what he wants.

 

[95pro]

In all honesty, we don't know who has power in this situation. At the end of the day, Ishbia does what he wants.

Yes and the guys in power spots 2,3 and 4 are his choice.

 

[Hoop Head]

So we're taking this pecking order written in a Tweet by a nobody as gospel now?

I have no doubt Ishbia is active and influential in the Suns front office but the rest is conjecture.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So we're taking this pecking order written in a Tweet by a nobody as gospel now?

I have no doubt Ishbia is active and influential in the Suns front office but the rest is conjecture.

I have absolutely no doubt that Isiah has been a player in some if not all of our post-Sarver player decisions. But I'm not sure how much involvement there's been from the rest of that list including the owner. Maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not but just the fact we're such a mess that someone would put out that list says a lot about our front office IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have absolutely no doubt that Isiah has been a player in some if not all of our post-Sarver player decisions. But I'm not sure how much involvement there's been from the rest of that list including the owner. Maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not but just the fact we're such a mess that someone would put out that list says a lot about our front office IMO.

And who made the list? Literally never seen that person before quoted for anything. I can make a list and share it here also. It seems like someone trying to create a narrative. That being JJ isn't to blame.

As far as the list, 1 is obvious and not changing. 2 beinf Mat's brother seems dubious simply because they're likely on the same page. I'd say he's more 1b than 2. How many times has Justin wanted something Mat didn't or Justin approved something Mat shot down. Then Zeke at 3 seems odd simply because the narrative has always been that he has Mat's ear. He'd be 1c on my list.

Josh at 4 is fine simply because he's the Suns CEO and all teams seem to have different hierarchies or structure. Some have VP or President of Basketball Ops doing everything, some have GM's, some have both, and others have CEO's. So he's definitely someone with power. I'm not sure if he's above or below JJ but his inclusion is fine for the sake of this discussion.

Booker and Durant being present makes sense because star players have pull but if Booker had his way then maybe Mikal and Cam J are still here. He's gone out of his way to be front row a couple times for Brooklyn games. There's clearly a bond there and I have trouble believing he was 100% supportive of the KD trade. Also it seems all of his buddies have been sent packing, which seems weird if he has so much say. I Dont doubt he's consulted but I don't think it's the other way around and JJ has to get his approval for a move, as this list would lead you to believe.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Possibly. It could be also that egos are at stake. I don't know whose bright idea hiring Vogel was. Ishbia, Isiah, Jones... who knows? But whoever it was is probably pretty invested in trying not to look like a dummy who made a big mistake now.

So if it was Ishbia, then Vogel is probably going to get a long opportunity before the plug is pulled. If it was James Jones (and I hope it was), Ishbia is probably far more likely to cut losses (and hopefully can Jones in the process).

If it was Isiah or someone else, well hopefully Ishbia will stop taking his/their advice on anything.

this is why I think Vogel probably isn't going anywhere until we actually see the Big 3 play together. Someone on high made the call to hire him and I doubt that person is willing to admit that big of a mistake this early and is using injuries as the excuse not to drop the hammer.

 

[Phrazbit]

this is why I think Vogel probably isn't going anywhere until we actually see the Big 3 play together. Someone on high made the call to hire him and I doubt that person is willing to admit that big of a mistake this early and is using injuries as the excuse not to drop the hammer.

I would have assumed that Vogel will get a few games with the team reasonably healthy (should that ever happen) but if Durant continues on like he did last night, then it’s clear that he isn’t going to try until he gets another severed ear for his necklace.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And who made the list? Literally never seen that person before quoted for anything. I can make a list and share it here also. It seems like someone trying to create a narrative. That being JJ isn't to blame.

As far as the list, 1 is obvious and not changing. 2 beinf Mat's brother seems dubious simply because they're likely on the same page. I'd say he's more 1b than 2. How many times has Justin wanted something Mat didn't or Justin approved something Mat shot down. Then Zeke at 3 seems odd simply because the narrative has always been that he has Mat's ear. He'd be 1c on my list.

Josh at 4 is fine simply because he's the Suns CEO and all teams seem to have different hierarchies or structure. Some have VP or President of Basketball Ops doing everything, some have GM's, some have both, and others have CEO's. So he's definitely someone with power. I'm not sure if he's above or below JJ but his inclusion is fine for the sake of this discussion.

Booker and Durant being present makes sense because star players have pull but if Booker had his way then maybe Mikal and Cam J are still here. He's gone out of his way to be front row a couple times for Brooklyn games. There's clearly a bond there and I have trouble believing he was 100% supportive of the KD trade. Also it seems all of his buddies have been sent packing, which seems weird if he has so much say. I Dont doubt he's consulted but I don't think it's the other way around and JJ has to get his approval for a move, as this list would lead you to believe.

I don't see it that way. One way or another, this reflects poorly on JJ and will likely cost him opportunities in the future. He either made some really awful moves while GM or he allowed himself to be used as a puppet to Sarver and Ishbia.

 

[95pro]

I don't see it that way. One way or another, this reflects poorly on JJ and will likely cost him opportunities in the future. He either made some really awful moves while GM or he allowed himself to be used as a puppet to Sarver and Ishbia.

JJ is stuck between a rock and hard place. He obviously didn’t want to do the KD trade but Ishibia overrode him.

I don’t remember the the videos and clips but early on in the ownership it mentioned Bartelstein’s involvement in the team and there were some eyebrows raised. Add to that the cloud surrounding IT.

It might have been during summer league or free agency.

 

[Hoop Head]

JJ also said a few times back under Sarver's ownership when questioned about Sarver's meddling and any possible restrictions that he would step down if he didn't have the freedom to do his job as he believes a GM should. Essentially saying he's not a yes man or a puppet but an active GM and the team is what he makes it by his choice. I'm trying to find a quote but of course it's difficult with such a generic name like "James Jones" but if I find one I'll add it here.

 

[Yuma]

JJ also said a few times back under Sarver's ownership when questioned about Sarver's meddling and any possible restrictions that he would step down if he didn't have the freedom to do his job as he believes a GM should. Essentially saying he's not a yes man or a puppet but an active GM and the team is what he makes it by his choice. I'm trying to find a quote but of course it's difficult with such a generic name like "James Jones" but if I find one I'll add it here.

I remember he kept saying Sarver didn't keep him from doing what he needed to do. It was always worded weirdly, but in essence he kept trying to say Sarver was not interfering. I don't think that means he wasn't given direction by Sarver.

 

[Raindog]

JJ also said a few times back under Sarver's ownership when questioned about Sarver's meddling and any possible restrictions that he would step down if he didn't have the freedom to do his job as he believes a GM should. Essentially saying he's not a yes man or a puppet but an active GM and the team is what he makes it by his choice. I'm trying to find a quote but of course it's difficult with such a generic name like "James Jones" but if I find one I'll add it here.

I would also venture that the Suns recent history of blowing off the draft and dumping future draft picks has a lot to do with Jones. He has been on record for years saying he doesn't think the draft is useful unless you happen to have one of the top handful of picks.

So it's not at all surprising to me that so many of the deals made by the Suns since he has been here have involved trading away draft picks. He has clearly expressed he doesn't really want to bother with building through the draft, and apparently always seems to prefer digging through the waiver wire and the end of other team's benches for low cost talent.

 

[Hoop Head]

I would also venture that the Suns recent history of blowing off the draft and dumping future draft picks has a lot to do with Jones. He has been on record for years saying he doesn't think the draft is useful unless you happen to have one of the top handful of picks.

So it's not at all surprising to me that so many of the deals made by the Suns since he has been here have involved trading away draft picks. He has clearly expressed he doesn't really want to bother with building through the draft, and apparently always seems to prefer digging through the waiver wire and the end of other team's benches for low cost talent.

And lets talk about the high level picks JJ supposedly values. He had #6 in 2019 and #10 in 2020. I won't hold the 29th pick against him in 2021. Striking out in the 20's or 2nd round happens more often than anything but he had 2 top 10 picks he didn't view as valuable as he should have. I'm just thankful we had Jeff Bower here to get us Cam Johnson because god only knows what JJ would have done with that pick otherwise. So how high of a pick does JJ really want? I guess if it's not #1 or #2 where there's a consensus across the league of who gets pick there then they're just skeletons to JJ.

 

[Superbone]

What about the dynamic between Vogel and Young? Vogel was pretty much forced to take on Young as his lead assistant. Could there be some friction there? I could see where the players were divided over this too. Something doesn't seem right in our locker room. I don't see either the offense or defense improving much from game to game.