Suns @ Lakers Wednesday game thread 3-22-2023

[Mainstreet]

That would be the end of his Suns career and likely the end of his career in the NBA.

James Jones was obligated as the GM to complete the trade if instructed by the owner. However, that doesn't prevent him from giving the owner his best advice. My hope is James Jones was opposed to trading Mikal Bridges.

 

[Mainstreet]

For me the dividing line centered around Mikal. If they insisted on Bridges, it should have been something like 2 lottery protected picks and top 3 protection for the final 2 picks. If they insisted on unprotected picks, it should have been matching contracts without any player value (no Mikal). And even that is an overpayment to me because KD is almost definitely not going to be worth his contract (as he hasn't been for a few years now).

I simply wouldn't have traded Bridges in a trade for Durant unless it was almost straight up.

It would have resembled Bridges plus filler and a maximum of three first round picks with some protection.

If the Nets said no, which they probably would, I could live with it.

If I were the Suns, I would have rather taken some of those draft picks and filler, e.g. Crowder, Saric, Shamet and added to the team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I simply wouldn't have traded Bridges in a trade for Durant unless it was almost straight up.

It would have resembled Bridges plus filler and a maximum of three first round picks with some protection.

If the Nets said no, which they probably would, I could live with it.

If I were the Suns, I would have rather taken some of those draft picks and filler, e.g. Crowder, Saric, Shamet and added to the team.

Oh you would have traded steaming hot pile of crap and a couple picks to get better? That’s great, but that doesn’t mean any team would have bent over and let you screw them simply because you said so.

To get isomeone who can make an actual difference between being a pretender and a contender, you have to give something of value up.

 

[Dr dumas]

Interesting that okogie was essentially benched.

And WHY THE €£¥€ is Booker player 40 minutes tonight?!?

F you monty. I watched game. We are terrible defensively. Every call on us was legit. And you have a team full of guys that shy away from contact and your sets don’t have guys going to the rim hard.

I’m surprised we had as many FT attempts as we did considering our entire team loves the midrange game. Even when Book drives, he usually pulls short to take the side bank shot after he feels ANY contact.

 

[TJ]

Well, sure it is. He's a walking poster boy for knee and ankle injuries and has been for several years. And he's 34 with a huge contract. If you can't debate the wisdom of giving up two starters, 4 unprotected picks and a pick swap for this version of KD then nothing is debatable. On top of this, I know I'm in the minority on this but I'm not alone in believing we were more than a KD trade away from winning it all given the decline of CP3.

I still believe the Nets were moving KD by the deadline, one way or the other. We should have held steady on some pick protection and Bridges, and if we had I believe they'd have caved. And that team would have had a decent chance of winning it all. And if they didn't cave, we should have moved on to the next best deal instead of overpaying for damaged goods.

We traded away a guy in Bridges that didn’t fit what this team needs to win a championship (strong perimeter defender who can legitimately make guys like Luka work hard for their points). bridges would’ve been nice depth here, but he doesn’t take the team to the next level like Durant. I know people adore him in Phoenix, but the best thing he did for this team was be the piece that got us Durant.

The only thing I’m sad about with this trade is losing Cam. On a relatively cheap contract for one season, he would’ve been a great depth guy coming off the bench.

As they say, scared money don’t make money

 

[82CardsGrad]

We traded away a guy in Bridges that didn’t fit what this team needs to win a championship (strong perimeter defender who can legitimately make guys like Luka work hard for their points). bridges would’ve been nice depth here, but he doesn’t take the team to the next level like Durant. I know people adore him in Phoenix, but the best thing he did for this team was be the piece that got us Durant.

The only thing I’m sad about with this trade is losing Cam. On a relatively cheap contract for one season, he would’ve been a great depth guy coming off the bench.

As they say, scared money don’t make money

Here's the reality... as I see it. Ishbia might've thought that making this KD trade meant that the Suns were instantly the favorite to win a championship. Jones knew differently...he knew that as constructed and compounded with the loss of Bridges and Johnson, the addition of KD is not nearly enough.
So, the hope now is that we can get enough great play out of KD over the next 2 years, while Jones builds a team around KD that is vastly superior to what we have today. Theoretically, a healthy KD with Book and Ayton (all of his massive short-comings not-withstanding), supported by legit "next-tier" starters (Craig/Okogie/Ross are not next-tier starters) and a vastly improved bench (I'd keep Payne, Shamet, Ish and Jock)...the Suns might be considered a credible Championship caliber team.

 

[Mainstreet]

We traded away a guy in Bridges that didn’t fit what this team needs to win a championship (strong perimeter defender who can legitimately make guys like Luka work hard for their points). bridges would’ve been nice depth here, but he doesn’t take the team to the next level like Durant. I know people adore him in Phoenix, but the best thing he did for this team was be the piece that got us Durant.

The only thing I’m sad about with this trade is losing Cam. On a relatively cheap contract for one season, he would’ve been a great depth guy coming off the bench.

As they say, scared money don’t make money

Have you noticed how much weaker the Suns defense is without Bridges? They can't get stops. The Suns used to win a lot of close games. Part of it was because Mikal Bridges played good defense and offense. Also he never missed games.

When Kevin Durant returns he should help fix a lot of these problems but let's not minimize what the Suns gave up in the trade. They essentially gave up a lot of their future for one player who is presently not playing.

 

[Mainstreet]

Good game.

Where are the Moderators when you need them! Oh, never mind.

 

[TJ]

Have you noticed how much weaker the Suns defense is without Bridges? They can't get stops. The Suns used to win a lot of close games. Part of it was because Mikal Bridges played good defense and offense. Also he never missed games.

When Kevin Durant returns he should help fix a lot of these problems but let's not minimize what the Suns gave up in the trade. They essentially gave up a lot of their future for one player who is presently not playing.

The defense wasn’t getting stops with Mikal in the lineup either. The main issue beforehand was teams switching Ayton out of the post and exploiting smaller defenders underneath the basket (an adjustment Monty never found an answer for). With KD, you can’t do that because when Ayton is switched out, KD is there waiting. Okogie is a stronger perimeter defender than Mikal, so he fits more of what this team needs at the moment.

Right now, the issue isn’t the loss of Mikal; it’s Monty being in over his head

 

[Mainstreet]

The defense wasn’t getting stops with Mikal in the lineup either. The main issue beforehand was teams switching Ayton out of the post and exploiting smaller defenders underneath the basket (an adjustment Monty never found an answer for). With KD, you can’t do that because when Ayton is switched out, KD is there waiting. Okogie is a stronger perimeter defender than Mikal, so he fits more of what this team needs at the moment.

Right now, the issue isn’t the loss of Mikal; it’s Monty being in over his head

The issue right now is the Suns don't have enough talent to win, especially at forward. The Suns need Durant and Ayton back soon.

 

[TJ]

Here's the reality... as I see it. Ishbia might've thought that making this KD trade meant that the Suns were instantly the favorite to win a championship. Jones knew differently...he knew that as constructed and compounded with the loss of Bridges and Johnson, the addition of KD is not nearly enough.
So, the hope now is that we can get enough great play out of KD over the next 2 years, while Jones builds a team around KD that is vastly superior to what we have today. Theoretically, a healthy KD with Book and Ayton (all of his massive short-comings not-withstanding), supported by legit "next-tier" starters (Craig/Okogie/Ross are not next-tier starters) and a vastly improved bench (I'd keep Payne, Shamet, Ish and Jock)...the Suns might be considered a credible Championship caliber team.

I like how you can’t type Ayton’s name without including some hyperbole. Definitely says objective analysis….

At any rate, I can’t see why you can say things like “James Jones knew (blank).” This is the same James Jones who is in charge of formulating the bench that you just ridiculed in your post. Which is it? Does he know how to create a championship roster or not? Sure, maybe part of the reason why Ishbia traded for Durant was for business reasons, but what I liked about the deal was that he hadnt created emotional bonds with anyone on the team and could look at the roster objectively and see what works and what doesn’t. The problem with a guy like Mikal was that he was well-liked in the building and by fans, which likely skewed the perceived value a bit.

This reminds me of the hand-wringing people did when Hornacek was included in the Barkley deal. come on. You can’t trade Whoopi Goldberg and a ham sandwich for Kate Upton. That’s not how sports trades work. You gotta give a lot to get a lot.

 

[TJ]

The issue right now is the Suns don't have enough talent to win, especially at forward. The Suns need Durant and Ayton back soon.

This I agree with. You’re playing end of the rotation players 20-30 min per game as a result of those injures

 

[AzStevenCal]

Have you noticed how much weaker the Suns defense is without Bridges? They can't get stops. The Suns used to win a lot of close games. Part of it was because Mikal Bridges played good defense and offense. Also he never missed games.

When Kevin Durant returns he should help fix a lot of these problems but let's not minimize what the Suns gave up in the trade. They essentially gave up a lot of their future for one player who is presently not playing.

Yep, he was a great team defender for us. There's a reason he's been the top on/off player for us all along (although I suspect the 6 weeks following his knee injury the numbers shifted a bit). But people want to blame him for not being able to guard Luka which is way off given that we switch so much it becomes a team failure when Doncic goes off on you not a player failure.

And sure, our Doncic defense troubles were exacerbated by the fact that Mikal simply can't guard a player that much stronger than he is but it was the Suns more than Bridges that failed to contain Luka.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yep, he was a great team defender for us. There's a reason he's been the top on/off player for us all along (although I suspect the 6 weeks following his knee injury the numbers shifted a bit). But people want to blame him for not being able to guard Luka which is way off given that we switch so much it becomes a team failure when Doncic goes off on you not a player failure.

And sure, our Doncic defense troubles were exacerbated by the fact that Mikal simply can't guard a player that much stronger than he is but it was the Suns more than Bridges that failed to contain Luka.

It's somewhat similar to the situation where Shawn Marion was blamed for not being able to guard Dirk Nowitzki.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Anyone know if Ayton is playing tonight

 

[Raindog]

Another point to consider re James Jones... the Suns roster is comprised of about three quarters undersized wings. Which wouldn't in and of itself necessarily be problematic in today's NBA... after all, the Warriors have succeeded with just such a formula.

However, the difference is the wings that make up most of our roster are bunch of "heady" overachievers who can't shoot or score consistently enough to be a dependable part of any real rotation anywhere else. In other words, basically a bunch of what James Jones was when he was a player.

I remember a few people complaining when Jones was first hired that he seemed to favor acquiring guys who were more or less the style of player he was when he played. I didn't give it much thought at the time, but now I'm beginning to see that might not have been so far off.

 

[TJ]

Anyone know if Ayton is playing tonight

You mean tomorrow? I doubt it

 

[Absolute Zero]

Anyone know if Ayton is playing tonight

Absolutely, he and Kyler have scheduled a round of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II/Warzone 2.0.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I like how you can’t type Ayton’s name without including some hyperbole. Definitely says objective analysis….

At any rate, I can’t see why you can say things like “James Jones knew (blank).” This is the same James Jones who is in charge of formulating the bench that you just ridiculed in your post. Which is it? Does he know how to create a championship roster or not? Sure, maybe part of the reason why Ishbia traded for Durant was for business reasons, but what I liked about the deal was that he hadnt created emotional bonds with anyone on the team and could look at the roster objectively and see what works and what doesn’t. The problem with a guy like Mikal was that he was well-liked in the building and by fans, which likely skewed the perceived value a bit.

This reminds me of the hand-wringing people did when Hornacek was included in the Barkley deal. come on. You can’t trade Whoopi Goldberg and a ham sandwich for Kate Upton. That’s not how sports trades work. You gotta give a lot to get a lot.

LOL... and I like how you are always able to remain objective and unbiased when you type Ayton's name...

At any rate, not sure why this is so difficult to grasp. Jones wasn't gonna trade for KD with Bridges in that trade. Nothing about that equates to Jones believing he had built a championship roster. It simply means Jones wasn't done and although, this year was not that championship season, the process would continue. Now, without Bridges and Johnson, but with an alltime great in KD.
I might've missed it, but I don't recall hearing Jones speak about this team, pre or post the trade, as a Championship team.

And for the record, I have never said I'm against the trade. I'm just being realistic about it... which means I can plainly see that, with KD and no Bridges/Johnson, and with players who are starting, namely Craig and Okogie, who would never be starters on any other legit contender, and with a sub-par (I'm being kind) bench, this season is not "that" season for a championship run.
We can all make our assessments of the trade in the present...however, IMHO, next season and the season after will be the true tests of this trade. If we don't at minimum get back to playing for a championship within the next 2 seasons, this trade can easily be considered a flop. Trading for KD mandates a playing for, if not winning, a first-ever championship!

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's somewhat similar to the situation where Shawn Marion was blamed for not being able to guard Dirk Nowitzki.

No one blamed Marion for not being able to guard Dirk. People bashed DA for putting him in that position and fans who thought he could as well.

 

[Covert Rain]

We know a lot but I guess your point is that we don't know anything more than we did when we traded for him and on that we agree. But I think we know what this team can do when healthy. I don't see a team in the West that this team healthy couldn't beat.

But I think we'd still come up short against Philly and Milwaukee and maybe Boston. We'd have the best two man combination in the league and the worst 3 through 8 of any contending team. I think that's too much to make up for. We'd have to hope that we could find a servicable point guard and add another starter caliber player for next season. Without tradable picks that's not going to be easy.

I don't think we do. We have seen glimpses of what could be. We don't know if KD will hold up. We don't know if the team will just get better and better the more games they have with KD. We don't know if when he is in the lineup pushing another player to the bench will be enough. We don't know if this team simply is going to be unstoppable once healthy no matter who they play. We don't know what this team can do in the offseason or which pieces they can move.

Right now it's all just prognostication. My point being, we need to see this play out before all the Chicken Little platitudes starting flying. IMO, we have not see enough of KD and this team healthy to draw any conclusions one way or the other.

 

[TJ]

LOL... and I like how you are always able to remain objective and unbiased when you type Ayton's name...

Ok, but you literally added a jab about him in your post without him even being a main topic of conversation. At least when I talk about Ayton, I dont perpetuate the histrionics on here and on social media.

At any rate, not sure why this is so difficult to grasp. Jones wasn't gonna trade for KD with Bridges in that trade. Nothing about that equates to Jones believing he had built a championship roster. It simply means Jones wasn't done and although, this year was not that championship season, the process would continue. Now, without Bridges and Johnson, but with an alltime great in KD.
I might've missed it, but I don't recall hearing Jones speak about this team, pre or post the trade, as a Championship team.

The team is two years removed from a Finals appearance and one season removed from the best record in the NBA. If James Jones isnt thinking chapionship, he's derelict of duty. Doing those C- trades that were rumored, such as Ayton for John Collins et al doesnt move the meter in that direction. That's what rebuilding teams do.

And for the record, I have never said I'm against the trade. I'm just being realistic about it... which means I can plainly see that, with KD and no Bridges/Johnson, and with players who are starting, namely Craig and Okogie, who would never be starters on any other legit contender, and with a sub-par (I'm being kind) bench, this season is not "that" season for a championship run.
We can all make our assessments of the trade in the present...however, IMHO, next season and the season after will be the true tests of this trade. If we don't at minimum get back to playing for a championship within the next 2 seasons, this trade can easily be considered a flop. Trading for KD mandates a playing for, if not winning, a first-ever championship!

We can absolutely win a championship with the roster as currently constructed health withstanding. Look at the Miami Heat teams of 10 years ago. Extremely top heavy with a crap bench. It's about how Monty utilizes his top 4. It would help if James Jones focus on bolstering the bench next season and the following, but we should absolutely play for the natty now and in the near future.

 

[TJ]

No one blamed Marion for not being able to guard Dirk. People bashed DA for putting him in that position and fans who thought he could as well.

Marion wasnt going to guard a guy 6" taller than him who could hit fall-away jumpers from 16' out, and Amare certainly didnt have the skill to neutralize him. Having small lineups that were gassed towards the end of the year were D'Antoni's undoing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Marion wasnt going to guard a guy 6" taller than him who could hit fall-away jumpers from 16' out, and Amare certainly didnt have the skill to neutralize him. Having small lineups that were gassed towards the end of the year were D'Antoni's undoing.

Yup.

 

[Phrazbit]

Maybe swap Paul for Ben Simmons?

I can't believe I'd be ok with that deal. Not saying they should do it or even make the call but if the Nets called and made that offer, I'd take it as long as they give up at least the swap rights for the 2027 pick.

I don't think you have a grasp on how bad Ben Simmons is.

If we had him on our team he would not be in the rotation.

His contract is, easily, the worst in the NBA.

IMO, he was always tremendously overrated and now he is flat out terrible.