Suns looking to move up?

[scoutmasterdave]

Marion & #21 = Nocioni & #2
Barbosa = Gordon
Jones & #27 = Hinrich

At least that's how I look at it....

I'd do the Marion trade. I'd do the Barbosa trade, but I doubt Chicago would.

I'd do the Jones trade in 1 nanosecond, but there is absolutely no way Chicago would. Hinrich is a top 5 (well, at the very least top 10) starting PG, and he's still young and cheap! The only way they trade Hinrich is if they get a proven star in return.

 

[NastyOne]

You guys are talking about Nocioni or Deng replacing Marion, i dont see it that way though.

If we traded Marion for Deng/Nocioni and the #2 pick, i expect us to take Adam Morrison,Andrea Bargnani or Rudy Gay.

Deng/Nocioni would probably come off the bench.Probably Deng cause Chicago really like Nocioni

Morrison would be sick in our offense.He can get that beautiful shot off against anyone and imagine how many wide open looks he would get in this offense with Nash and Amare.

Gay has ridiculous potential, but its gonna take a couple years like it did with McGrady and Kobe, but maybe not as long since he does have some college experience.But when he gets better court vision and improves his handle hes gonna be a terror in the NBA.This guy is already so good with very little years of coaching.

Bargnani would allow Diaw to stay at SmallForward, so already thats a plus.And he supposed to be Dirk Lite with better handle than Dirk.But who knows with Euros, i would take the two proven North American college superstars before him, but hes supposed to be really talented and hes 6ft11.

I don't know if we take a guy like Aldridge or Tyrus Thomas, we need guys that can murder the other team from 3.

Even though Marion was horrible inconsistent from deep, he was still a threat from behind the arc.

Now with Diaw starting and Marion gone in the proposed trade we need to draft someone like Morrison,Gay or Bargnani who can bang the outside shot.

Rudy Gay would be my choice.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

How about just a straight trade with CHI:

Marion/Barbosa/#21/#27

for

Nocioni/Gordon/Hinrich (or Duhon)/#2

We get depth at 1, 2 and 3 as well as the 2nd pick, which would hopefully net us Aldridge. I would even include Jones in that trade to CHI. We'd be overpaying, but we'd also be dumping some salary....

Nash/Hinrich
Bell/Gordon
Diaw/Nocioni
Stoudemire/TThomas
Aldridge/KThomas

Horribly unbalanced. No way that Hinrich gets traded, and I would be really surprised if Nocioni does. I would say the same thing about Deng, but if they get Marion someone would have to go from their 3 spot.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

i'm sorry, but you are just plain old WRONG.

Since you broke it down the way you did, you are probably right. There is a slight deficiency in the Marion side of the trade, so maybe leave it as is and take back Duhon instead of Hinrich or throw in ATL#1 and take back Hinrich. Are we closer?

 

[NastyOne]

Horribly unbalanced. No way that Hinrich gets traded, and I would be really surprised if Nocioni does. I would say the same thing about Deng, but if they get Marion someone would have to go from their 3 spot.

Agreed, Suns fan overvalue Marion way too much.

Hinrich is one of the best young PGs in the NBA, and Nocioni really opened some eyes with his first round performance this year.

That would be way to much to trade considering Marion is a product of the Suns system, and hes always played with one of the best PGs in the NBA.So teams will be wondering if he will beable to put up the same numbers with their club.

Deng,#2 and #16 would probably be the most we can get from Chicago, and we would probably have to throw in the #21 pick.

Bulls might do it cause they're trying to run a similar system to the Suns, so Marion might fit in with them.

 

[clif]

Agreed, Suns fan overvalue Marion way too much.

.

Funny, the exact opposite can be said for other so called "suns fans"

 

[NastyOne]

Funny, the exact opposited can be said for other so called "suns fans"

So cause we don't go crazy over a big game choker that can't dribble or shoot, we're not Suns fan?

When you think of guys making 15+mil a year, you think of guys that can takeover a game like Wade and Dirk are doing in the finals.

Not guys that totally rely on his PG finding him for wide open looks at the basket and defenses leaving him alone to focus on someone else.

Any of you guys think Marion would even avg 18ppg if he played on a team as their first option, and he had to create his own shot to score?

When defenses set their sights on Marion, he is taken out of the game completely.

Thats why his value isnt as high as the other 20/10 guys in the NBA.

 

[myrondizzo]

That would be way to much to trade considering Marion is a product of the Suns system, and hes always played with one of the best PGs in the NBA.So teams will be wondering if he will beable to put up the same numbers with their club.

marion was putting up around 19 and 9 since his second year. marbury is not a PG that makes his teamates better. if you put marion on any team in the league and he will average around 20 & 10.

 

[myrondizzo]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Shaquille O'Neal Miami[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$20,000,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Allan Houston New York[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$19,125,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Chris Webber Philadelphia[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$19,125,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Michael Finley Dallas / San Antonio[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$18,612,500[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Kevin Garnett Minnesota[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$18,000,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Stephon Marbury New York[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$16,453,125[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Allen Iverson Philadelphia[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$16,453,125[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8. Jason Kidd New Jersey[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] $16,440,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9. Jermaine O'Neal Indiana[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] $16,425,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10. Brian Grant LA Lakers / Phoenix[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$16,128,438[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,946,875[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12. Tim Duncan San Antonio[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,845,156[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13. Anfernee Hardaway Orlando[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] $15,750,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14. Grant Hill Orlando[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,694,250[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Keith Van Horn Dallas[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,694,250[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Jalen Rose New York[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,694,250[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Tracy McGrady Houston[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$15,694,250[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18. Eddie Jones Memphis[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$14,560,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19. Tim Thomas Chicago / Phoenix[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$14,364,063[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20. Antonio Davis Toronto[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,860,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21. Antawn Jamison Washington[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,843,157[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Vince Carter New Jersey[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,843,157[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Dirk Nowitzki Dallas[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,843,157[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Paul Pierce Boston[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,843,157[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25. Baron Davis Golden State[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,770,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Shawn Marion Phoenix[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,770,000[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-. Steve Francis New York[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$13,770,000[/FONT]​

 

[myrondizzo]

So cause we don't go crazy over a big game choker that can't dribble or shoot, we're not Suns fan?

When you think of guys making 15+mil a year, you think of guys that can takeover a game like Wade and Dirk are doing in the finals.

Not guys that totally rely on his PG finding him for wide open looks at the basket and defenses leaving him alone to focus on someone else.

Any of you guys think Marion would even avg 18ppg if he played on a team as their first option, and he had to create his own shot to score?

When defenses set their sights on Marion, he is taken out of the game completely.

Thats why his value isnt as high as the other 20/10 guys in the NBA.

so what he isnt a first option? the thing is he gets 20 and 10 being the third option. that can be very valuable to a team that already has a first and second option. how many 3rd options put up 20 & 10?

he's far from a big time choker.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Any of you guys think Marion would even avg 18ppg if he played on a team as their first option, and he had to create his own shot to score?

Absolutely since Marion as a starter has always averaged at least 17 points a game, yes...yes he would.

Marion has played in numerous systems with different players, pgs, ect...

His stats are almost always the same. He is a legit 19 and 9 player with small variances therein from season to season. But of course anyone can average 19 and 9 which is why every small forward in the NBA does it.

 

[clif]

So cause we don't go crazy over a big game choker that can't dribble or shoot, we're not Suns fan?

When you think of guys making 15+mil a year, you think of guys that can takeover a game like Wade and Dirk are doing in the finals.

Not guys that totally rely on his PG finding him for wide open looks at the basket and defenses leaving him alone to focus on someone else.

Any of you guys think Marion would avg 18ppg if he played on a team as their first option?

When defenses set their sights on Marion, he is taken out of the game completely.

Thats why his value isnt as high as the other 20/10 guys in the NBA.

I did not say you weren't a Suns fan... I was simply pointing out that the exact opposite can be said... ALOT of posters UNDER VALUE Shawn Marion and continually bring of trade scenarios with him. Posters continually point to him not being the focal point of the offense and how he is a product of the system. Here is a thought.... how about thinking that maybe the system is a result of his athleticism... or perhaps Dantoni was just smart enough to find something that works for the players he has.

No I don't consider him on the same level as Dirk or Wade, but he is still a damn good basketball player that brings alot to the table. This was by far his best postseason and I can only think he will continue to improve. He was top ten in damn near every statistical category (if I'm not mistaken) so that has to be worth more than what is being thrown around.

As far as his salary goes that's the Suns fault. They are the ones who signed him to that deal. He obviously was worth it in the minds of someone other than Suns fans. I never thought he was a Max player, but I sure as hell think he is worth more than what is being discussed here.

 

[NastyOne]

marion was putting up around 19 and 9 since his second year. marbury is not a PG that makes his teamates better. if you put marion on any team in the league and he will average around 20 & 10.

Yeah no he wont

Even though Marbury isnt great at passing, he is the best PG in the league when it comes to attacking the paint and breaking down a defense.

And guess what? That fits Marion perfectly

When teams tried to prevent Marbury from getting in the lane, Marion would cut to the weakside and either get a wide open look from Marbury or get the offensive putback.

Marbury averaged over 8 assist every year with us, so once again Marion had one of the top PGs in the NBA.

I would really love to see Marion go to a team with an average PG and now he has to create his own shot to score against defenses that are keyed in on him.Some of you guys will really see how one dimensional he is on offense.

Like i said hes great on our team during the regular season, and i love him for that.But deep in the playoffs against the best teams, Marion cannot do much cause these teams take him out of games with good defense.

No matter how good of defense you play against guys like Dirk,Amare,Wade,Duncan or Kobe they still find ways to hurt you badly.

Marion just vanishes.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

People who say he is the product of the system can't have been Suns fans for long because Marion's stats don't change much regardless of the system.

He can get his garbage/hustle points in any system. He is a better version of Cedric Ceballos.

 

[NastyOne]

Absolutely since Marion as a starter has always averaged at least 17 points a game, yes...yes he would.

Marion has played in numerous systems with different players, pgs, ect...

His stats are almost always the same. He is a legit 19 and 9 player with small variances therein from season to season. But of course anyone can average 19 and 9 which is why every small forward in the NBA does it.

And thats the reason hes not worth a max contract.

If we can replace him with 3 players in a trade, i do it.

There are many guys that can put up Marion like numbers in our offense.

Maybe they won't rebound as much, but atleast we won't be paying them max money to be our 3rd/4th option.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Marion just vanishes.

I know you are trying to make a point, but broad generalization and exaggerations aren't helping you make them.

For the playoffs, Marion shot 49% from the field. He averaged 20.4 points and 11.7 rebounds.

That is hardly vanishing. He had some great games and some bad ones. Just like everyone else in the playoffs.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And thats the reason hes not worth a max contract.

If we can replace him with 3 players in a trade, i do it.

There are many guys that can put up Marion like numbers in our offense.

Maybe they won't rebound as much, but atleast we won't be paying them max money to be our 3rd/4th option.

You can't just replace 19 and 9. There are a handful of players who average that. That's the entire point.

I will leave Sarver to worry about the salary and the cap implications. If you have any aspirations of winning a championship next year, it makes no sense to make a trade from a team that was 2 wins from the NBA championship.

 

[Folster]

How about Duhon, Deng/Nocioni, and the #2 for Marion.

 

[boisesuns]

People who say he is the product of the system can't have been Suns fans for long because Marion's stats don't change much regardless of the system.

He can get his garbage/hustle points in any system. He is a better version of Cedric Ceballos.

I would say Marion's game style fits best in Diantoni's system. I know he would get some points in other systems, but not every team has players that can get the oops to him like we had this year. He's most effective with a great passer.

I feel Marion would suffer in a slow down system or one with a go to guy that shot often (Like Iverson). He works great with the suns becuase of the movement and fastbreaks, and the ability of Nash and Diaw to pass. The main set plays for Marion are lobs usually. Other than that his offense comes from hustle, and the occasional shot he takes.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

How about Duhon, Deng/Nocioni, and the #2 for Marion.

How about a NBA Championship? I honestly believe that if Amare comes back at even 75% if we keep the same team we win the title. I can't say that when you toss in a rookie and two young guys to try to replace a guy who gets 20 and 10 without a single play being run for him.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I would say Marion's game style fits best in Diantoni's system. I know he would get some points in other systems, but not every team has players that can get the oops to him like we had this year. He's most effective with a great passer.

I feel Marion would suffer in a slow down system or one with a go to guy that shot often (Like Iverson). He works great with the suns becuase of the movement and fastbreaks, and the ability of Nash and Diaw to pass. The main set plays for Marion are lobs usually. Other than that his offense comes from hustle, and the occasional shot he takes.

If that were the case then Marion's numbers would be dramatically different since D'Antoni came along. They simply aren't that different. He gets his stats regardless of how fundamentally unsound his shot is.

 

[SunsTzu]

There are many guys that can put up Marion like numbers in our offense.

Maybe they won't rebound as much, but atleast we won't be paying them max money to be our 3rd/4th option.

Suns biggest weakness is rebounding though. I'd be inclined to keep the teams best rebounder who also happens to score 20ppg hitting 1/2 his shots.

I'd also like you to define option, if it's the guy who takes the shots Marion has been 1st or 2nd in fga on the team ever since his 2nd season.

 

[NastyOne]

People who say he is the product of the system can't have been Suns fans for long because Marion's stats don't change much regardless of the system.

He can get his garbage/hustle points in any system. He is a better version of Cedric Ceballos.

You really think Marion would put up 20/10 on a team where they're relying on him as their #1 option?

When has Marion shown the ability to create his own shot with defenses playing him tightly?

You think he would succeed in Boston if we traded Marion Straightup for Paul Pierce? Cause then he would really be their #1 option and without a top pointguard.He would need to create his own shot since teams would collapse on him when he tried tried to make his move and force him to shoot over someone and we know he can't.He would be a turnover machine as anyones top option.

Thats what they do to Pierce right now in Boston and he still gets his points cause hes a true superstar.Same with Kobe.

Marion cannot score unless its garbage points or wide open shots. And on a normal team that doesnt run as much as us, and get as many possesions as us, he would average about 16 & 10.

You don't pay max money for that.

I rather three players that deepens our bench without killing our cap.

Those three combined would average more PPG and Rebounds than Marion.And possibly more of an impact since it allows D'antoni to rest other guys and this helps avoid injuries.

We can't deepen the bench with Marion's contract on our hands.

Role players(Even if hes the best role player in the NBA) shouldnt get payed max money if you want to build a championship teams.

 

[boisesuns]

If that were the case then Marion's numbers would be dramatically different since D'Antoni came along. They simply aren't that different. He gets his stats regardless of how fundamentally unsound his shot is.

True. He's had some of his best games of his career this year. Part of it is we've had to rely on him so much, and for the most part he's done well.

I'm not totally in the trade Marion camp, but I would listen and explore options if I were the Suns. If you don't get something that looks like it will work, you are fine becuase Marion fits well with the team. If something is there, you consider it, but only if it makes the team deeper and solves some of the cap stuff in the future.

All that said, I think it would be best to wait on trading Marion. Amare coming back (Hopefully healthy) will open Marion up a lot more and hopefully he will be able to defend guys more his size. Next summer someone will most likley have to go because of our cap situation. Maybe there could be a midseason trade depending on how the team looks.

A lot of it hinges on Amare. If he can come back and we can stay healthy we really shouldn't make any moves becuase we are very close to the Championship. We do, on the other hand need to address some issues with depth that hurt us when our guys went down.

 

[Folster]

How about a NBA Championship? I honestly believe that if Amare comes back at even 75% if we keep the same team we win the title. I can't say that when you toss in a rookie and two young guys to try to replace a guy who gets 20 and 10 without a single play being run for him.

I definitely agree. I want to keep this team together. As I have stated earlier, my hypothetical trade proposals are under the possible assumption that we have to trade Marion. Plus it's fun to speculate.