Suns looking to move up?

[clif]

I feel Marion would suffer in a slow down system or one with a go to guy that shot often (Like Iverson). He works great with the suns becuase of the movement and fastbreaks, and the ability of Nash and Diaw to pass. The main set plays for Marion are lobs usually. Other than that his offense comes from hustle, and the occasional shot he takes.

Let's be honest... does anyone other than Iverson succeed?

 

[Cheesebeef]

good grief guys, don't y'all ever get tired of this conversation? The topic of Shawn Marion is now akin to what Josh McCown was on the Cards board... a dead, freaking horse. But, I guess the beat must go on...

Bottom line - keep the team together (unless for some ridiculous reason we can get KG) and see what they can do - if they win the title, yahtzee (and to be honest, I could care less what the hell happened after that because it would just be a toal dream come true)! If they don't, it'll be time to send Shawn packing - it's really just that simple.

Seriously - the Bulls are going to give up the equivalent of three lottery picks for Shawn Marion? Come on now.

 

[clif]

You really think Marion would put up 20/10 on a team where they're relying on him as their #1 option?

When has Marion shown the ability to create his own shot with defenses playing him tightly?

You think he would succeed in Boston if we traded Marion Straightup for Paul Pierce? Cause then he would really be their #1 option and without a top pointguard.He would need to create his own shot since teams would collapse on him when he tried tried to make his move and force him to shoot over someone and we know he can't.

Thats what they do to Pierce right now in Boston and he still gets his points cause hes a true superstar.Same with Kobe.

Marion cannot score unless its garbage points or wide open shots. And on a normal team that doesnt run as much as us, and get as many possesions as us, he would average about 16 & 10.

You don't pay max money for that.

Which one of the players in any of the supposed trades would be a #1 option on this team if they were to come to the Suns? Isn't that a part of evaluating the trade?

Again I agree that he is not a max player, but it is what it is. That should have been discussed before he signed the deal. Now seeing what he brings to the table.... hey the suns are probably overpaying for his services... but atleast we know what we got.... and as Chris stated... a team that is two wins from the NBA finals.

 

[myrondizzo]

You really think Marion would put up 20/10 on a team where they're relying on him as their #1 option?

When has Marion shown the ability to create his own shot with defenses playing him tightly?

You think he would succeed in Boston if we traded Marion Straightup for Paul Pierce? Cause then he would really be their #1 option and without a top pointguard.He would need to create his own shot since teams would collapse on him when he tried tried to make his move and force him to shoot over someone and we know he can't.

Thats what they do to Pierce right now in Boston and he still gets his points cause hes a true superstar.Same with Kobe.

Marion cannot score unless its garbage points or wide open shots. And on a normal team that doesnt run as much as us, and get as many possesions as us, he would average about 16 & 10.

You don't pay max money for that.

yes he is over paid noone has argued that. but the way i look at it is i dont have to sign the checks so im okay with. also there are a bunch of players that get paid more than him with less production. every team is going to have at least one boo boo signing and i'll deal with him being 3-4 mil a year overpaid instead of trading him off for a down grade in talent. and for everyone that thinks that getting 3 ok guys is going to help the team i think you'll be in for a suprise when they wont let them on the court because we can only play 5 guys. he is one of the best rebounders in the league and we have a huge weakness on the boards so trading away our best rebounder doesnt seem like a good idea. and if you think that boris is going to start grabbing more rebounds you better hope he can double his average because that is what its going to take to make marions output.

 

[NastyOne]

Which one of the players in any of the supposed trades would be a #1 option on this team if they were to come to the Suns? Isn't that a part of evaluating the trade?

Again I agree that he is not a max player, but it is what it is. That should have been discussed before he signed the deal. Now seeing what he brings to the table.... hey the suns are probably overpaying for his services... but atleast we know what we got.... and as Chris stated... a team that is two wins from the NBA finals.

They don't have to be our #1 option, we already have Amare and Nash, plus now with Diaw busting out they would only need to come in and be our new garbage man but for way less money.

I'm not saying just trade Marion to trade him, cause if all we could get for Marion was cap relief i wouldnt even think about moving him.

But the proposed deal was Deng/Nocioni and the #2 pick, and that would be hard to turn down.

Thats talent and cap relief, how do you turn that down to keep your 4th option who makes max money?

With Marion Gone we would now have the money to also pickup a good freeagent PG to backup Nash.

I guess i just think Marion is more replaceable than some of you.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

How about a NBA Championship? I honestly believe that if Amare comes back at even 75% if we keep the same team we win the title. I can't say that when you toss in a rookie and two young guys to try to replace a guy who gets 20 and 10 without a single play being run for him.

This is very true - and why most people would only move Marion if it got the Suns a better player, a la KG...

The problem is that the financial implications are going to be very strong after next season. I would personally like to hold off on a deal until then, but like people have pointed out his value will go down because the Suns would be in a "must move" situation.

If we can get a very good deal for 3 good players on rookie contracts we may have to take it - and hope that the team does what it always does, and finds a way to win.

 

[Ryanwb]

Marion and trade exception to Philly for Iverson

 

[NastyOne]

Marion and trade exception to Philly for Iverson

That would be the end of our championship run

Atleast after Iverson kills this team and Amare is suspended for killing Iverson, we can draft Oden with the #1 pick in 2007!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Marion & #21 = Nocioni & #2
Barbosa = Gordon
Jones & #27 = Hinrich

At least that's how I look at it....

no way.

marion + 21 and nocioni + 2 is close

barbosa doesn't come close to gordon's value yet

and jones + 27 for hinrich is laughable at best.

 

[SunsTzu]

and jones + 27 for hinrich is laughable at best.

I agree. If I were to compare Hinrich's value to someone on the Suns it'd probably be Diaw, even then I think almost every team would prefer Hinrich.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

People who say he is the product of the system can't have been Suns fans for long because Marion's stats don't change much regardless of the system.

He can get his garbage/hustle points in any system. He is a better version of Cedric Ceballos.

Ok this is the first time i have agreed with you on this. Hes actually a much better athlete, defender, and rebounder than Ceballos could ever dream. But Ceballos had WAY better one on one offensive moves. So i guess there really nothing alike

But i see what you are saying and i agree Marion would get "his" in any system with his garbage points. In fact he would be extremely valuable to a team who has trouble scoring as he would allow for you to maintain a defensive lineup but he is much better at getting "garbage" points more than anyone on the league. Much like the Bulls.

(sidebar: for the poster who compared how the Bulls could use Marion because they are trying to run the Suns type of ball - my only question is "Huh?" You remember Skiles coached here right? You seen how he has transformed the Bulls into playoff contenders through being near the top of the league in defensive fg % right? They play halfcourt offense.....not quite D'Antoni ball)

I guess I don't feel like the Suns need that that type of player and could either use a better defender at the three or another go-to-guy at the position. I also feel you could get 80% production for 1/3 the cost (thats good value....do the math) out of several players in the NBA and possibly even Tyrus Thomas. The stat line provided for Nocioni over 41mpg is an excellent indicator of this value, as i feel Nocioni is a level below Marion but a good player. And he was playing in Skiles offense the whole year.

I dont think the argument is really "...is he valuable?"

It's more like "....is he irreplacable?"

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I agree. If I were to compare Hinrich's value to someone on the Suns it'd probably be Diaw, even then I think almost every team would prefer Hinrich.

Hmmmmm....thats interesting. I I don't think i agree with the second part. I love Hinrich as a player and i see him being a top 5 PG in this league at some point but other teams would really have to like Diaw's offensive potential at his size now that you have seen the confidence he has gained. And if he was to move onto anther team, i could absolutly see him continue to progress after what he learned this year and the better opportunity he would have gained after last season.

The POTENTIAL (worst word in sports) of this kid is ridiculous. Hinrich tops out at Mark Price i believe. Diaw could be like Magic or a better passing version of Scottie Pippen. No one his size can combine how he guards the post, handles the ball, passes the ball, and towards the end of the season, makes that mid range jumper at that size. And he is getting more and more agressive and every time i saw him rise up and dunk a special feeling came over me much like i felt when i watched Amare as a rookie.

I am a huge fan of Hinrich. But with just a tiny but of bias, i take Diaw every time.

 

[clif]

echo x 6

 

[boisesuns]

echo x 6

Echo Echo Echo Echo Echo Echo?

 

[boisesuns]

Hmmmmm....thats interesting. I I don't think i agree with the second part. I love Hinrich as a player and i see him being a top 5 PG in this league at some point but other teams would really have to like Diaw's offensive potential at his size now that you have seen the confidence he has gained. And if he was to move onto anther team, i could absolutly see him continue to progress after what he learned this year and the better opportunity he would have gained after last season.

The POTENTIAL (worst word in sports) of this kid is ridiculous. Hinrich tops out at Mark Price i believe. Diaw could be like Magic or a better passing version of Scottie Pippen. No one his size can combine how he guards the post, handles the ball, passes the ball, and towards the end of the season, makes that mid range jumper at that size. And he is getting more and more agressive and every time i saw him rise up and dunk a special feeling came over me much like i felt when i watched Amare as a rookie.

I am a huge fan of Hinrich. But with just a tiny but of bias, i take Diaw every time.

I agree with this post more than the other 5.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

echo x 6

no doubt......my bad


Talk about thread killer

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If I were to compare Hinrich's value to someone on the Suns it'd probably be Diaw, even then I think almost every team would prefer Hinrich.

I think you are wrong. I think Boris is as unique as Marion, and will be better than Marion. Boris has the "Amare" ability to dramatically improve aspects of his game almost instantaneously. His potential at his size and his skill is even more, especially if he perfects his outside game, which seems inevitable. We're talking about a guy who shot emarassingly bad from the free throw line in the Euro tourny last summer, to a consistent shooter from the line, especially in the playoffs shooting 76%. He also averaged around 7 rebounds and 5 assists a game in the playoffs. Have Amare teach him the finer points of the power game, and have Boris lobbing it up to hellboy. Man, I can't wait until next year...

Anyway, I understand that Hinrich is a very good player, but you don't find players of Diaw's size with his skill level. I doubt any GM would prefer Hinrich to Diaw.

 

[panfolk]

Ummm... about the first part of the original rumor: the only player I want that's going in the teens would be Sefolosha. Sene nor Farmar shouldn't go higher than 21 and we couldn't get aldridge in the teens.

As far as the second part goes the only Bulls I want that they should be able to trade are Nocioni and Duhon. I'd much rather have Duhon and both Bulls picks for Marion and both Suns picks (I have no idea how salaries like this work out) so we could have

Nash Duhon
Bell Barbosa
Diaw Sefolosha Jones
Amare TT Skita
Aldridge KT Grant Burke

That team would be unstoppable! Even with a rookie starting! I'd be happy with KT starting as Center as well.

 

[SunsTzu]

I am a huge fan of Hinrich. But with just a tiny but of bias, i take Diaw every time.

I think Diaw has loads of untapped potential and think he's going to not only improve his jumper he has now but extend it to the 3pt line which will make him even more deadly. There is also no way I'd trade him for Hinrich. I do however feel Hinrich's value around the league is atleast as high and probably more so than Diaw's. Hinrich is a true pg who is one of if not the best defensive players at his position. I also think some teams will question Diaw's ability to preform as well outside D'Antoni's system. The point is theirs values are somewhat close, unlike the Jones + pick that was being offered.

 

[cly2tw]

You really think Marion would put up 20/10 on a team where they're relying on him as their #1 option?

When has Marion shown the ability to create his own shot with defenses playing him tightly?

You think he would succeed in Boston if we traded Marion Straightup for Paul Pierce? Cause then he would really be their #1 option and without a top pointguard.He would need to create his own shot since teams would collapse on him when he tried tried to make his move and force him to shoot over someone and we know he can't.He would be a turnover machine as anyones top option.

Thats what they do to Pierce right now in Boston and he still gets his points cause hes a true superstar.Same with Kobe.

Marion cannot score unless its garbage points or wide open shots. And on a normal team that doesnt run as much as us, and get as many possesions as us, he would average about 16 & 10.

You don't pay max money for that.

Well, if Boston were ever to agree to Pierce for Marion, they'd be in a transition mode to shift the primary offense options to Jeffrey and Green, while winning as much as possible along the way. Marion won't be the 1st option.

 

[George O'Brien]

Agreed, Suns fan overvalue Marion way too much.

Hinrich is one of the best young PGs in the NBA, and Nocioni really opened some eyes with his first round performance this year.

That would be way to much to trade considering Marion is a product of the Suns system, and hes always played with one of the best PGs in the NBA.So teams will be wondering if he will beable to put up the same numbers with their club.

Deng,#2 and #16 would probably be the most we can get from Chicago, and we would probably have to throw in the #21 pick.

Bulls might do it cause they're trying to run a similar system to the Suns, so Marion might fit in with them.

IMHO, Skiles is never going to run a system even remotely similar to D'Antoni's nor do the Bulls have a roster that capable of the Suns style.

 

[cly2tw]

Why would the Bulls trade for Marion? They want to win it now. They need enough firepower to do that with a followup plan with FAs. So, first, I don't think they'd part with neither of Hinrich/Gordon/Nocioni. Depending on the cap situation, they likely will do

Sweetney/Deng/#2 for Marion

and try to either get an established shooting guard like Well in FA or trade Gordon for one, and/or try to sign either Ben Wallace or Mohammed. Say they get Wallace. Their lineup would be:

Ben/Chandler/Marion/Nocioni/Hinrich

with backups in Gordon/Duhon/Songaila. If they play small/scramble, replace Chandler with Gordon and rotate Marion and Nocioni at PF. That's formidable already. If they still have some cap for a SG or drafting a Safolosa/Brewer type with their other pick, they'd be a force in the East.

From the Suns' perspective, we just need some cap and a good bench player in Deng who is prob. 1/2 of the player Marion is. Then draft whoever we want, we have a more balanced team and deeper bench already. Resign TT. Trade for some further parts with our huge trade exception from that deal. We will win it all with great insurance already.

 

[playstation]

Ummm... about the first part of the original rumor: the only player I want that's going in the teens would be Sefolosha. Sene nor Farmar should go higher than 21 and we couldn't get aldridge in the teens.

As far as the second part goes the only Bulls I want that they should be able to trade are Nocioni and Duhon. I'd much rather have Duhon and both Bulls picks for Marion and both Suns picks (I have no idea how salaries like this work out) so we could have

Nash Duhon
Bell Barbosa
Diaw Sefolosha Jones
Amare TT Skita
Aldridge KT Grant Burke

That team would be unstoppable! Even with a rookie starting! I'd be happy with KT starting as Center as well.

god bless you

 

[JS22]

True. He's had some of his best games of his career this year. Part of it is we've had to rely on him so much, and for the most part he's done well.

I'm not totally in the trade Marion camp, but I would listen and explore options if I were the Suns. If you don't get something that looks like it will work, you are fine becuase Marion fits well with the team. If something is there, you consider it, but only if it makes the team deeper and solves some of the cap stuff in the future.

All that said, I think it would be best to wait on trading Marion. Amare coming back (Hopefully healthy) will open Marion up a lot more and hopefully he will be able to defend guys more his size. Next summer someone will most likley have to go because of our cap situation. Maybe there could be a midseason trade depending on how the team looks.

A lot of it hinges on Amare. If he can come back and we can stay healthy we really shouldn't make any moves becuase we are very close to the Championship. We do, on the other hand need to address some issues with depth that hurt us when our guys went down.

I'd actually rather have Diaw starting alongside Amare at the SF position, as opposed to Marion. I assume that I'm in the minority though.

 

[JS22]

Marion and trade exception to Philly for Iverson

What the hell is wrong with you!