Suns looking to trade KT for Gooden or Wilcox?

[Cheesebeef]

What if the Suns attached two first round picks with a KT trade for Wilcox? I think the Suns might consider this option if they are high on him. It seems to me that D'Antoni favors players that are ready to play now. And I'm sure they could put stipulations on the picks to make sure they do not give up a high pick.

It would seem to me that some other teams might be more interested in this type of trade, perhaps a team like Cleveland for Gooden. However, hopefully just one first round pick would get it done.

Anyway, just a thought. I do think D'Antoni would give up two first round picks for the right player and to move KT's contract. Also most teams would probably consider themselves lucky to draft a young 4/5 that can play now if they had two first round picks.

A bird in the hand, rather than two in the bush philosphy so to speak.

I'd go for the two first round picks if I was guaranteed to know Diaw and Marion were gonna be around paast this year. A four man rotation of Amare, Marion, Diaw and Wilcox would be pretty sick in DA's rotation. But i don't see how the salaries are going to work together. I also worry about our defense without KT, but then again, I also worry about KT's durability to last a full season with us as well.

 

[F-Dog]

why would Seattle want KT though? That's what makes me question the trade.

Because the Sonics are awful defensively, and KT will single-handedly make them into a top-5 defensive squad. Geez, haven't you been reading this board at all?

The only question now is, how many first-round picks will the Sonics throw in to get this done.




Seriously, I don't see it. If the Sonics have agreed to sign Wilcox for 3 years anyway, why not just keep him?

 

[Covert Rain]

I also worry about our defense without KT, but then again,

Exactly. This team cannot afford to give up anymore defense. This team needs to add defense not take away from it. They should just stay put with Kurt Thomas and give it a go.

I like next years team both offensively and defensively. I would change my mind about the teams defense if that trade is true.

 

[George O'Brien]

I get the feeling that David Griffin calls up every team about once a week, so it appears the Suns are not on the trail of every disgruntled trade prospect in the NBA. (D'Antoni's been busy with team USA).

I don't think it means anything.

BTW, one of the issues with most deals for KT is that they would require taking on a long term contract. My suspicion is that the Suns hope to keep him his two years and perhaps keep him for a minimum deal later -- but they will need the salary relief when he comes off contract.

In any case, I can't see Sonics trading Wilcox for KT unless there is a lot of extras thrown in.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I get the feeling that David Griffin calls up every team about once a week, so it appears the Suns are not on the trail of every disgruntled trade prospect in the NBA. (D'Antoni's been busy with team USA).

I don't think it means anything.

I was thinking the same thing. It looks like someone in the Suns front office is always making calls--bottom fishing.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was thinking the same thing. It looks like someone in the Suns front office is always making calls--bottom fishing.

I used to really enjoy fishing. One thing I always noticed, I caught some of my biggest fish off the bottom.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Yes, JJ is better than James, but the notion his PERFORMANCE makes him a super max guy -- I don't think so. JJ has good stats, but for that money his stats should be a lot better than James' and quite frankly they're not.

Considering the Suns offered $60 million for six years to JJ. I think that was a fair offer. $75 over FIVE years for 20 ppg is not.

George - quit putting up statisics and watch the games.....I know you do but sometimes i am not so sure.

Antoine Walker and his inflated statistics on the Atlanta Hawks would be more of a analogous situation but just putting up JJ's numbers and then comparing him to Mike James is just ludicrious. The one thing i think we are going to miss about JJ is his end of game play. There are only a handful of guys in the league i would want shooting the ball from the perimeter over him at the end of a game and i am hoping that Diaw develops that trait. JJ is a great player and while he maybe overpaid it does not diminish his value as player. He is a better player than Marion and makes like 5 mill a year less for a bit of perspective.

I'm still a little bit bitter that we failed to recognize his potential and pay him accordingly. Like Sly fly said, Diaw or no Diaw I still miss JJ....He will have a breakout season this year and will prove to be one of the 15 best players in the NBA IMO....

 

[myrondizzo]

He is a better player than Marion and makes like 5 mill a year less for a bit of perspective.

try 2.5 mil

 

[Covert Rain]

He is a better player than Marion and makes like 5 mill a year less for a bit of perspective.

He will have a breakout season this year and will prove to be one of the 15 best players in the NBA IMO....

Wow talk about over statement...... sheesh. First off, I don't remember the Suns every running plays on a regular basis for JJ at the end of games. That never happened. Second, I could name a bunch of players I would rather take the last shot in a game.

Second, THERE IS NO WAY THAT JJ is even close to Marion in terms of overall game. JJ is a better shooter. That's it. Marion is a much better player then JJ. I would take Marion a million times over JJ. To me, JJ still has not filled his entire potential. JJ is a good player. However, Marion is one of the best if not the best at his position. You can't say that about JJ.

Can JJ become that player? Can he become the best at his position? I don't think it will ever happen. However, I think he has potential to get better. However, I much happier with a combo of Diaw and Bell in the lineup, then just having JJ.

 

[Joe Mama]

try 2.5 mil

technically JJ made more money than Shawn Marion last year. I'm almost positive his contract is severely frontloaded, and he made something like $20 million last year. I would take him over Shawn Marion without even thinking about it much though.

George, I hate to keep piling it on, but that comparison with Mike James was absolutely horrible. You would really do well just to admit it was a bad comparison and not even try to defend it. Like Chap I've always defended the original position of Sarver in the summer of 2004 regarding JJ. I actually don't think he is so drastically overpaid now as much as I believe that this particular Phoenix Suns team could not handle his salary.

To play devil's advocate here something else we can all think about. If the Phoenix Suns had matched JJ's offer and kept him here in Phoenix we would not have those first-round draft picks from Atlanta, but I'm not so sure it would mean no Boris Diaw. If they wanted him badly enough they probably could have gotten him for a first-round draft pick or just signed him as an unrestricted free agent (not sure Atlanta would have picked up his last season and definitely would not have signed him to an extension/made a qualifying offer next summer). I know I'm going way into hypotheticals, but we might have gotten him for next to nothing. I mean he was doing nothing in Atlanta, and the Phoenix Suns have always loved him. Then again Toronto would have probably outbid us.

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

Wow talk about over statement...... sheesh. First off, I don't remember the Suns every running plays on a regular basis for JJ at the end of games. That never happened. Second, I could name a bunch of players I would rather take the last shot in a game.

Second, THERE IS NO WAY THAT JJ is even close to Marion in terms of overall game. JJ is a better shooter. That's it. Marion is a much better player then JJ. I would take Marion a million times over JJ. To me, JJ still has not filled his entire potential. JJ is a good player. However, Marion is one of the best if not the best at his position. You can't say that about JJ.

Can JJ become that player? Can he become the best at his position? I don't think it will ever happen. However, I think he has potential to get better. However, I much happier with a combo of Diaw and Bell in the lineup, then just having JJ.

the Phoenix Suns might not have run many plays at the end of games for JJ, but how about the Atlanta Hawks last year?

Okay, if you had said something like, "JJ isn't quite as good as Shawn Marion yet," I might not have said anything, but "even close"? You must be joking. For the same money, and frankly even at their current contracts, I would take JJ. The only area I think Shawn Marion is better then JJ is rebounding. Everywhere else I would say they are even or JJ is better. Most importantly JJ is very good at creating his own shot. In fact he's very good at creating shots for others. Shawn Marion does neither of those things.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

the Phoenix Suns might not have run many plays at the end of games for JJ, but how about the Atlanta Hawks last year?

Okay, if you had said something like, "JJ isn't quite as good as Shawn Marion yet," I might not have said anything, but "even close"? You must be joking. For the same money, and frankly even at their current contracts, I would take JJ. The only area I think Shawn Marion is better then JJ is rebounding. Everywhere else I would say they are even or JJ is better. Most importantly JJ is very good at creating his own shot. In fact he's very good at creating shots for others. Shawn Marion does neither of those things.

Joe Mama

Except Shawn Marion is much better in the one area that the Suns lack the most--rebounding.

 

[Cheesebeef]

However, Marion is one of the best if not the best at his position. You can't say that about JJ.

this is a joke, right? "If not THE best" - sorry, but any GM would take Lebron, T-mac, Melo and KG over Marion at SF any day of the week - hell, I bet most value Pierce over him as well. That's not to say Shawn's not a great player, but you holding him up above and beyond every other SF, when he's clearly about 5th on the list, as opposed to JJ, who's behind Kobe, Dwayne Wade, Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter and then in the same argument as Ray Allen and Michael Redd. So, actually seems like you CAN say the same thing about JJ.

 

[Chaplin]

this is a joke, right? "If not THE best" - sorry, but any GM would take Lebron, T-mac, Melo and KG over Marion at SF any day of the week - hell, I bet most value Pierce over him as well. That's not to say Shawn's not a great player, but you holding him up above and beyond every other SF, when he's clearly about 5th on the list, as opposed to JJ, who's behind Kobe, Dwayne Wade, Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter and then in the same argument as Ray Allen and Michael Redd. So, actually seems like you CAN say the same thing about JJ.

Not sure about taking Carmelo and TMac over Marion, but definitely Lebron and KG--although KG shouldn't be thought of as a small forward anymore--he was pigeonholed in that position when he was young, but has been playing power forward for years.

That said, Marion is definitely not the best at his position.

 

[jandaman]

Marion is the league's best rebounder by bounds.. if you account how small his frame is and his height... and weight... He is a Rodman type, in terms of getting to those missed balls before anyone.... How many true SF can say that they are the best at something big bulky 7 footers should be dominating... nada.... and surprisingly Marion is also one of the most versatile defenders, as he can guard the perimeter and taller guys regularly.....

The only thing he cannot do is put up 1 on 1 isolation plays so he can put points on the board... but thats not necessarily a bad thing... because he does cut and position himself to get the ball.... he is easily top 5 in best finishers in the league.

 

[Chaplin]

Marion has a ton of intangibles, but he also is lacking in one fundamental thing--basketball intelligence. I love Marion, and he was my favorite player for years on the team, but there is no denying his faults.

It's amazing what he can do against bigger players and he's not a terrible defensive player either. But I would still take Lebron James over him.

Saying that a good 2 or 3 (or even 4) players would be preferable in a league of 400 is still saying a lot.

The only thing he cannot do is put up 1 on 1 isolation plays so he can put points on the board... but thats not necessarily a bad thing... because he does cut and position himself to get the ball.... he is easily top 5 in best finishers in the league.

This goes back to his intelligence. He does cut and position himself to get the ball--sometimes. There are way too many times when he just stands there and does nothing--good things happen when he cuts, but unfortunately he doesn't do it as much as he should. THAT'S how he ends up with the ball in 3-point range and chucks it up, usually missing.

 

[Joe Mama]

Marion is the league's best rebounder by bounds.. if you account how small his frame is and his height... and weight... He is a Rodman type, in terms of getting to those missed balls before anyone.... How many true SF can say that they are the best at something big bulky 7 footers should be dominating... nada.... and surprisingly Marion is also one of the most versatile defenders, as he can guard the perimeter and taller guys regularly.....

The only thing he cannot do is put up 1 on 1 isolation plays so he can put points on the board... but thats not necessarily a bad thing... because he does cut and position himself to get the ball.... he is easily top 5 in best finishers in the league.

Marion is not the league's best rebounder and to say "by bounds" is way over the top. He does a great job on the boards, especially considering his size. He is not a position rebounder though. He uses his athletic ability and quickness more than anything. Shawn Marion also might guard the players regularly, but he usually is not effective unless he's receiving constant help from the double-team.

I think if you put Joe Johnson at small forward/point forward on the Phoenix Suns he would grab 6-8 rebounds per game like Boris Diaw did last year.

Even at their current salaries I would take Joe Johnson over Shawn Marion. If their salaries were equal it would be a no-brainer.

Joe Mama

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wow talk about over statement...... sheesh. First off, I don't remember the Suns every running plays on a regular basis for JJ at the end of games. That never happened. Second, I could name a bunch of players I would rather take the last shot in a game.

Second, THERE IS NO WAY THAT JJ is even close to Marion in terms of overall game. JJ is a better shooter. That's it. Marion is a much better player then JJ. I would take Marion a million times over JJ. To me, JJ still has not filled his entire potential. JJ is a good player. However, Marion is one of the best if not the best at his position. You can't say that about JJ.

Can JJ become that player? Can he become the best at his position? I don't think it will ever happen. However, I think he has potential to get better. However, I much happier with a combo of Diaw and Bell in the lineup, then just having JJ.

I disagree with this post on so many levels--and I love Shawn Marion.

First. The Suns regularly ran plays for JJ to shoot the last shot. I remember it happening often. He wasn't the only one to do it, but he took that shot often.

"JJ is a better shooter. That's it." I disagree with this. JJ is a better shooter, has a better handle, is a better distributor, and plays better perimeter D. Marion is a better rebounder and finisher on the break. He's not even a better slasher since he does it so seldom these days. JJ is also very under rated as an interior defender. He has the body to play pretty good position defense and did it respectably when asked.

In terms of value, they are very close.

 

[nowagimp]

I disagree with this post on so many levels--and I love Shawn Marion.

First. The Suns regularly ran plays for JJ to shoot the last shot. I remember it happening often. He wasn't the only one to do it, but he took that shot often.

"JJ is a better shooter. That's it." I disagree with this. JJ is a better shooter, has a better handle, is a better distributor, and plays better perimeter D. Marion is a better rebounder and finisher on the break. He's not even a better slasher since he does it so seldom these days. JJ is also very under rated as an interior defender. He has the body to play pretty good position defense and did it respectably when asked.

In terms of value, they are very close.

I pretty much agree here with one or two added observations that Marion is a much better ball hawk and shotblocker than JJ, he plays the passing lanes as well as any SF in the league, and most of those passing lane steals turn into fastbreak layups where Marion is a better finisher on the break.

I think most GMs would take Marion over TMAC (who is is probably finished) and most GM's would take Melo over Marion only due to age, not skills. Lebron, well thats a whole different story.

 

[BOLDIN]

While I agree that Marion is a great rebounder. He rebound statistics are inflated by about 2 or 3 rebounds. Next season, watch who hustles to the rebound at that end of every quarter with no time left adding about one a game there. And then notice how many easy layups he misses that he rebounds himself and puts back up.

I think he is averaging about 8 rebounds a game legitamately. No joke.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Can we just start the season already?!!

 

[Mainstreet]

Can we just start the season already?!!

I totally agree.

I also wonder why we are still talking about JJ, especially in comparison to Marion. They are different players in many ways. I think the differences in their games have been discussed to exhaustion. Both have different assets and weaknesses.

However, the big plus for Marion, IMO, is that Marion will get the Suns 20/10 most any night even playing out of position at the PF if needed. I believe Shawn is a natural SF and has sacrificed alot of his game to give the Suns what they need even when he is outmatched against bigger and taller players at the PF position. Shawn has also had to suffer the criticism when he got abused by such matchups.

I'm not going to knock JJ as he was a good player for the Suns. However, I do not believe JJ would willingly play the PF position like Marion. Perhaps I'm totally wrong. I simply think he would balk at this idea which Marion has grudgingly accepted for the benefit of the team. Actually, I think JJ has all the skills and physical attributes to play PF and have often wondered if he was ever asked to do so by the Suns or Atlanta.

I know JJ is a great 2/3 player, but does anyone but me think he could even be a more dominant player at the PF position... even more so than Marion?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I totally agree.

I also wonder why we are still talking about JJ, especially in comparison to Marion. They are different players in many ways. I think the differences in their games have been discussed to exhaustion. Both have different assets and weaknesses.

However, the big plus for Marion, IMO, is that Marion will get the Suns 20/10 most any night even playing out of position at the PF if needed. I believe Shawn is a natural SF and has sacrificed alot of his game to give the Suns what they need even when he is outmatched against bigger and taller players at the PF position. Shawn has also had to suffer the criticism when he got abused by such matchups.

I'm not going to knock JJ as he was a good player for the Suns. However, I do not believe JJ would willingly play the PF position like Marion. Perhaps I'm totally wrong. I simply think he would balk at this idea which Marion has grudgingly accepted for the benefit of the team. Actually, I think JJ has all the skills and physical attributes to play PF and have often wondered if he was ever asked to do so by the Suns or Atlanta.

I know JJ is a great 2/3 player, but does anyone but me think he could even be a more dominant player at the PF position... even more so than Marion?

no way in hell could JJ be a more dominant player at the PF position. He could probably exploit the hell out of people on offense, but his lack of quickness that Marion has wouldn't give him a better advantage on offense. As far as defense, he may be able to body guys a little more than Marion, but his lack of Marion's quick spring, wouldn't get him the 10+ boards a bona-fide PF should get.

Bottom line - neither guy should really be played at PF and if we weren't Suns fans and hadn't been ingrained into DA's small ball system, we would never think such things anyway. Hell, some people have bought into it so much, they talk about James Freaking Jones playing PF at times, which is a complete and utter joke.

 

[Mainstreet]

no way in hell could JJ be a more dominant player at the PF position. He could probably exploit the hell out of people on offense, but his lack of quickness that Marion has wouldn't give him a better advantage on offense. As far as defense, he may be able to body guys a little more than Marion, but his lack of Marion's quick spring, wouldn't get him the 10+ boards a bona-fide PF should get.

Bottom line - neither guy should really be played at PF and if we weren't Suns fans and hadn't been ingrained into DA's small ball system, we would never think such things anyway. Hell, some people have bought into it so much, they talk about James Freaking Jones playing PF at times, which is a complete and utter joke.

Note, I did use the word could, but what I was trying to say (and obviously you diasgree), is that JJ might have a better physical build and skills to play PF than Marion. But here's my focus, I was just wondering if JJ would have been willing to play PF if approached by either Phoenix or Atlanta.

Even before this whole JJ trade scenario to Atlanta, I often wondered the same thing. Could or would JJ play PF if asked to do so on a regular basis. I really didn't intend to get into the issue of which player would be the more dominant there. A poor choice of words on my part.

I do think both players are better not playing the PF position. However, I've always been intrigued by the idea of JJ playing PF because he is taller (close to 6'9") and at least appearance wise... looks like he could be a PF. He also has some good offensive and defensive skills around the basket. Anyway, as it is doubtful that JJ will ever be thrust in this role, we'll probably never find out. We agree that James Jones definitely does not have the build to play PF.

I also think we agree on one other issue, sometimes I just get frustrated at the small ball concept even though it works most of the time. Especially in the playoffs, I often feel the Suns are undersized and always playing uphill. I hope a healthy Amare and KT can change this perception. Just once I would like the Suns to be big and fast, not small and fast. I think the key will be Amare.

 

[cly2tw]

I have been wondering why everybody is so obsessed with comparisons of individual attributes of the players. Can we as a team win? That's the only thing important for me. For example, I believe that if we replace on the current roster Marion with TimThomas and JumainJones, assuming both are healthy, our team record would not suffer much for the regular season and our playoff performance would be even better. Period.