Suns @ Magic Wednesday game thread 12-4-19

[1Sun]

Can we all at least agree at this point that Dario Saric is NOT an NBA caliber starting power forward?

 

[Bufalay]

Actually, he is shooting an admittedly decent 39% from 3, but a wretched 42.7% overall.

https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3138196/cameron-johnson

“Wretched” most of his shots are 3s

 

[1Sun]

“Wretched” most of his shots are 3s

That makes him at best a poorer shooting version of Kyle Korver, then...hardly worth the #11 pick, especially while we are still in need of a starting power forward.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Actually, he is shooting an admittedly decent 39% from 3, but a wretched 42.7% overall.

https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3138196/cameron-johnson

Going into tonight he was shooting 39% from 3 and 50% from 2 point range. That is far from wretched.

 

[Mainstreet]

Going into tonight he was shooting 39% from 3 and 50% from 2 point range. That is far from wretched.

I think Cam would shoot an even higher percentage if he didn't try to get those closer-in shots. Those are seldom successful. He will need to add some muscle to consistently make those.

 

[cwamjn]

Can we all at least agree at this point that Dario Saric is NOT an NBA caliber starting power forward?

He's led the team in rebounding 4 of the left 5 games. What are you looking for on an NBA starting caliber PF for this team? I'll take your comments offline.

Also 92nd in the league right now in true shooting, ahead of Kawhi Leonard. Sure we can upgrade the PF position long term, but it's a silly scape goat. We are losing games right now because we are thin up front. One guy got hurt and the other guy got suspended just because ESPN has it out for the state of Arizona.

 

[1Sun]

He's led the team in rebounding 4 of the left 5 games. What are you looking for on an NBA starting caliber PF for this team? I'll take your comments offline.

Also 92nd in the league right now in true shooting, ahead of Kawhi Leonard. Sure we can upgrade the PF position long term, but it's a silly scape goat. We are losing games right now because we are thin up front. One guy got hurt and the other guy got suspended just because ESPN has it out for the state of Arizona.

For the record, what we need the most from the power forward position is someone who can bang/rebound, defend, protect the rim and add athleticism and toughness. Saric brings none of that. Even when he does score, which isn't regularly, he is always giving up more on the other end and leaving the rest of the team scrambling to cover for his physical deficiencies. No NBA team hoping to compete can afford to have a front court starter who plays like his feet are glued to the floor.

 

[Mainstreet]

When looking at the Suns defense it's not just they are getting hurt inside.

The Magic shot 56% from 3 point range. It's a breakdown everywhere.

 

[SirStefan32]

When looking at the Suns defense it's not just they are getting hurt inside.

The Magic shot 56% from 3 point range. It's a breakdown everywhere.

In all fairness, a lot of those threes were contested.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

In all fairness, a lot of those threes were contested.

I think the issue is that we let teams get into a rhythm early in games and they then torch us as the game progresses.

Once guys start to get hot it really doesn't matter if you are contesting shots or not.

Also I believe that some of the open looks that we are giving up are because of our lack of interior defense as we seem to be going under a lot more screens now to stop players from getting into the lane.

 

[BC867]

Can we all at least agree at this point that Dario Saric is NOT an NBA caliber starting power forward?

I'm in!

It is a shame that, when Ayton returns, a role-playing Power Forward won't be on board to make us
solid at all five starting positions. And, more importantly, provide balance. Especially for Ayton.

Why do the Suns always get our hopes up (except when they don't even do that) and do a
complete job. Throughout their history, there has always been something missing.

 

[1Sun]

I'm in!

It is a shame that, when Ayton returns, a role-playing Power Forward won't be on board to make us
solid at all five starting positions. And, more importantly, provide balance. Especially for Ayton.

Why do the Suns always get our hopes up (except when they don't even do that) and do a
complete job. Throughout their history, there has always been something missing.

The sad thing is that Brandon Clarke was right there for the taking, and he would have given us just what we needed at the power forward position.

 

[Raze]

This is only Jerome's second game. He is still learning what he can and can't do.

A lot of it has to do with the speed of the players closing passing lanes and learning what he can do inside.

Jerome is not going to be able to shoot it over Bamba which other Suns players need to learn as well.

I hate to be so negative here but...

I'm not concerned with him learning what he can and can't do. I'm concerned that merely above average defenders are going to figure out what he can do and utterly shut him down. His lateral movement isn't even remotely NBA quality. The vast majority, if not all of starting Gs have quicker lateral movement than he does. It's truly remarkable how slow he is. I can't think of a single G in the history of the NBA who moved slower and was more flat footed. I swear he has to take 3 steps for every one of another PGs.

In each of the last two games I watched an average player blow by him while he was defending the perimeter. His lack of lateral movement is already getting exposed. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get posterized time and time again with competent cross overs. Couple that with his extremely rare Wingspan:Height ratio < 1.0 and he has no chance guarding average NBA Gs one on one. Absolutely no chance.

I fully expect him to lead the league in blocks given up inside the 3 point line. He's got really good body control, but horrific lift off the floor. He's Frank Kaminsky without the 7 feet. He will get blocked time and time again. And good defenders will never let him get by them. Just move your feet at 3/4's speed and you'll shut down his penetration. He is smart however, and in the flow of the offense he will get penetration... only to get blocked or have his shot severely altered.

He is a really good shooter, an exceptionally smart basketball player (exceptionally), a good leader, plays with all heart and hustle, a gym rat, a winner in college... but more than likely, not an NBA player.

Once teams figure him out, it's over.

 

[JerkFace]

The sad thing is that Brandon Clarke was right there for the taking, and he would have given us just what we needed at the power forward position.

I was a super big Brandon Clarke fan. I had him in my polls on the board for the #6 pick. When we traded down I was on the edge of my seat hoping Clarke would fall to us and I was super pissed when we passed on him. With that being said, my desire to draft Clarke was based purely on theory on how he would fit since I hadn’t really seen what the offense Monte was going to run looked like. Now that I have seen it I don’t really think Clarke is what we need at the power forward position. In Monte’s offense the power forward position is getting almost 10 three point attempts per game, and most of those attempts are fairly wide open. What this offense needs is a sharp shooting stretch four who can bang a little down low on defense. A younger Gallinari/Mirotic type would be perfect for this team.

 

[hcsilla]

I hate to be so negative here but...

I'm not concerned with him learning what he can and can't do. I'm concerned that merely above average defenders are going to figure out what he can do and utterly shut him down. His lateral movement isn't even remotely NBA quality. The vast majority, if not all of starting Gs have quicker lateral movement than he does. It's truly remarkable how slow he is. I can't think of a single G in the history of the NBA who moved slower and was more flat footed.

Kendall Mashall?

 

[hcsilla]

I was a super big Brandon Clarke fan. I had him in my polls on the board for the #6 pick. When we traded down I was on the edge of my seat hoping Clarke would fall to us and I was super pissed when we passed on him. With that being said, my desire to draft Clarke was based purely on theory on how he would fit since I hadn’t really seen what the offense Monte was going to run looked like. Now that I have seen it I don’t really think Clarke is what we need at the power forward position. In Monte’s offense the power forward position is getting almost 10 three point attempts per game, and most of those attempts are fairly wide open. What this offense needs is a sharp shooting stretch four who can bang a little down low on defense. A younger Gallinari/Mirotic type would be perfect for this team.

I agree.

Actually, I do think that Gallinari is/will be a trade target for the Suns.

Tyler Johnson, Okobo or Jerome for Gallinari?

The ideal target would be Markkanen but he will take a lot more.

Johnson, Okobo or Jerome, 2021 top4 protected 1st for Markkanen, Felicio, Valentine? CHI probably would refuse it.

 

[SirStefan32]

Saric and Kaminsky are a good-enough PF rotation as long as they have some athleticism, size, length (Ayton) and toughness (Baynes) around them. They look worse than they are. They lack athleticism, but they (Saric in particular) are actually better than they look without Ayton and Baynes. Dario is a lot tougher than he looks, he actually plays decent defense, and rebounds OK. He makes the most out of what he has. He (and Kaminsky) were brought over to play next to Ayton. Without Ayton (and Baynes) their weaknesses get exposed and their strengths get minimized. The two of them were not meant to be the only big men on the roster/ in the rotation.

 

[leclerc]

Where is the Suns defense? They started the season so well and now the intensity has vanished. If they want to be a .500 team everyone has to put in the work on defense.

 

[Hoop Head]

Where is the Suns defense? They started the season so well and now the intensity has vanished. If they want to be a .500 team everyone has to put in the work on defense.

I think has to do with a few things, there is no inside presence at all. The difference between Baynes and Kaminsky as your rim protector/primary rebounder is night and day. Baynes is about as tough as anyone in the NBA and Kaminsky has probably been the weakest 7 footer in each of his 5 years in the league. Teams wouldn't test Baynes but they'll go at Kaminsky all game.

Another is how not having that guy behind you covering back hurts the perimeter defense in two ways. Players on the perimeter are now gambling more to try to keep guys from getting past them, which hasn't worked, and they know that once that players gets to Kaminsky that he isn't going to call them out in the same way Baynes did. Baynes held his teammates accountable. That was a big talking point early on, how everyone was holding their teammates accountable but you don't hear about it anymore.

Baynes was also the defensive leader who set the tone. Not only was he a take no crap sort of tough guy but he also called out schemes and switches for others. Baynes has played for some great coaches and on some great teams. He's probably forgotten more about defense than Kaminsky knows. He was able to play the role of captain out there on defense and help direct everyone quite well. The same thing was clear in Boston last year, that the Celtics defense was best when Baynes was on the floor. He had the best defensive plus/minus on that team by like 6 or 7 points, which is very impressive given he only played about 20 minutes a game and they are a good defensive team without him.

The short answer as to what happened to the defense is simple though, Kaminsky isn't Baynes.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Where is the Suns defense? They started the season so well and now the intensity has vanished. If they want to be a .500 team everyone has to put in the work on defense.

#RegressionToTheMean

 

[Proximo]

The sad thing is that Brandon Clarke was right there for the taking, and he would have given us just what we needed at the power forward position.

Do you really have to say this after every game? Unless you have a time machine and an ability to change James Jones draft picks it is pointless to keep bringing this up.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hate to be so negative here but...

I'm not concerned with him learning what he can and can't do. I'm concerned that merely above average defenders are going to figure out what he can do and utterly shut him down. His lateral movement isn't even remotely NBA quality. The vast majority, if not all of starting Gs have quicker lateral movement than he does. It's truly remarkable how slow he is. I can't think of a single G in the history of the NBA who moved slower and was more flat footed. I swear he has to take 3 steps for every one of another PGs.

In each of the last two games I watched an average player blow by him while he was defending the perimeter. His lack of lateral movement is already getting exposed. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get posterized time and time again with competent cross overs. Couple that with his extremely rare Wingspan:Height ratio < 1.0 and he has no chance guarding average NBA Gs one on one. Absolutely no chance.

I fully expect him to lead the league in blocks given up inside the 3 point line. He's got really good body control, but horrific lift off the floor. He's Frank Kaminsky without the 7 feet. He will get blocked time and time again. And good defenders will never let him get by them. Just move your feet at 3/4's speed and you'll shut down his penetration. He is smart however, and in the flow of the offense he will get penetration... only to get blocked or have his shot severely altered.

He is a really good shooter, an exceptionally smart basketball player (exceptionally), a good leader, plays with all heart and hustle, a gym rat, a winner in college... but more than likely, not an NBA player.

Once teams figure him out, it's over.

And still Jerome had 5 points, 7 assists, 2 steals (although he did have 5 turnovers) in the game last night and it's only his second NBA game.

Jerome's athletic limitations were well documented in scouting reports before the draft and yet he was still projected to be a later first round pick. I don't recall anyone saying he would be a starter in the NBA. I guess I'm surprised by the timing of your criticism.

He was projected to be a backup point guard.

You compare him to Kaminsky in regard to athletic ability yet Frank is an NBA player and lead the Suns in scoring last night.

 

[Mainstreet]

In all fairness, a lot of those threes were contested.

The Magic had 11 offensive rebounds which contributed to great looks from 3 point range.

IIRC, the Suns fouled 3 point shooters at least 4 times last night so if they were contested, it was not very effective.

 

[1Sun]

I was a super big Brandon Clarke fan. I had him in my polls on the board for the #6 pick. When we traded down I was on the edge of my seat hoping Clarke would fall to us and I was super pissed when we passed on him. With that being said, my desire to draft Clarke was based purely on theory on how he would fit since I hadn’t really seen what the offense Monte was going to run looked like. Now that I have seen it I don’t really think Clarke is what we need at the power forward position. In Monte’s offense the power forward position is getting almost 10 three point attempts per game, and most of those attempts are fairly wide open. What this offense needs is a sharp shooting stretch four who can bang a little down low on defense. A younger Gallinari/Mirotic type would be perfect for this team.

I don't think that is Monty's offense so much as it is the fact that for the most part, Saric and Kaminsky can't do anything other than shoot threes (and at a relatively inefficient clip).

In any event, this team has been over-reliant on the three, particularly given the relatively poor shooting percentage it has from there.

 

[BC867]

I think has to do with a few things, there is no inside presence at all. The difference between Baynes and Kaminsky as your rim protector/primary rebounder is night and day. Baynes is about as tough as anyone in the NBA and Kaminsky has probably been the weakest 7 footer in each of his 5 years in the league. Teams wouldn't test Baynes but they'll go at Kaminsky all game.

Another is how not having that guy behind you covering back hurts the perimeter defense in two ways. Players on the perimeter are now gambling more to try to keep guys from getting past them, which hasn't worked, and they know that once that players gets to Kaminsky that he isn't going to call them out in the same way Baynes did. Baynes held his teammates accountable. That was a big talking point early on, how everyone was holding their teammates accountable but you don't hear about it anymore.

Baynes was also the defensive leader who set the tone. Not only was he a take no crap sort of tough guy but he also called out schemes and switches for others. Baynes has played for some great coaches and on some great teams. He's probably forgotten more about defense than Kaminsky knows. He was able to play the role of captain out there on defense and help direct everyone quite well. The same thing was clear in Boston last year, that the Celtics defense was best when Baynes was on the floor. He had the best defensive plus/minus on that team by like 6 or 7 points, which is very impressive given he only played about 20 minutes a game and they are a good defensive team without him.

The short answer as to what happened to the defense is simple though, Kaminsky isn't Baynes.

Out of curiosity, how do you evaluate Ayton's potential skills in that regard?

Potentially Baynes? Potentially Kaminsky? Somewhere in between?
Defending best on the perimeter with a skilled Power Forward defending in the post?