Suns@Nuggets

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by newfan101
What a horribly frustrating 4th quarter. With Joe Johnson on fire, they suddenly stop going to him and start going to Marion, who bricks shots left and right. And I'll now officially join the Casey Jacobson sucks campaign. He is simply not an NBA player.

Blown fast breaks, stupid fouls, lopsided free throw discrepency, and a super hot player getting no touches during the most critical stretch of the game.

ugh ..........

Don't hold back. How do really think?

Camby was obviously a big part of why the Nuggets won, not counting his prayer he shot that sealed the game. Camby had 6 blocked shots and forced a number of poor shots in close. Marion kept trying to float it over him and it was a disaster, so Marion went back to shooting long jumpers. Ouch.

On defense, the Suns continue to struggle with moving their feet and keeping guys from penitrating. Eddie Johnson on the TV broadcast kept pointing out that the Suns were not forcing the Nuggets to go baseline through overplaying.

In spite of all this, there were a lot of positives to take from this game. They could have won in spite of not having Amare, they out rebounded the Nuggets by 4 boards, they forced 18 turnovers, and blocked 6 shots. The Suns shot 44% in spite of hitting only 2 of 11 for 3 (they were 47.6% for non-3 pointers).

JJ had another huge game, going 13 of 24 and made 5 assists. In one sequense, he posted up Andre Miller and it was no contest.

Voskuhl had a reasonable strong game, although he made a stupid foul near the end that hurt big time. He still has rebounds bounce off his hands, but overall he played pretty well.

It was easily the best game of the season for Googs. He actually went to basket rather than shooting jump shots and made 3 rebounds in 14 minutes. Do you think the Jazz were watching?

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
A lot of Marion's shots went in and out.

But again Marion struggles on the nights he is forced to play PF.

He would catch the ball in close against a 6'10 Camby and get his shot blocked.

And Sly Fly, there are dozens of reasons that don't involve Shawn Marion as to why the Suns lost this game. You seriously need to quit hating.

What, are you going to ban me?

Marion's shot in and out?? Like the one from the corner with under a minute left? C'mon, man.

If you don't agree with what I say, then refute it. Tell me why Marion was not the problem. No, he wasn't the only problem. But, he's supposed to be a leader out there... and he's not showing it.

Excusing Marion's poor performance because he has to play PF is wrong. What does not being able to run a simple fast break have to do with being a PF???

Heck, if he's matching up with PF's, he should be blowing right by them and finishing at the rim.

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by slinslin
An entire 4th quarter of the worst backcourt duo in the league.

Eisley and Jacobsen!

And 4 quarters of small ball with Camby going nuts.

That pretty much sums it up.

Where were Harvey & White? Playing Marion at PF is a bunch of crap.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Wally
That pretty much sums it up.

Where were Harvey & White? Playing Marion at PF is a bunch of crap.

I am really puzzled about Harvey. He seemed to play OK for a while against the Lakers so I don't think he is hurt. Perhaps Mike D'A thinks Jacobsen is a better defender on the perimeter, but Harvey seems to offer more of what you'd like from a PF than Marion.

The irony is that the only good reason to put Marion at PF is that he likes to go left, which would mean he could attack the baseline. But he didn't.

 

[F-Dog]

Harvey has no place in the Suns' future plans, but Jacobsen might. (Or, he might have trade value, while Harvey's contract expires after the season.) So, Jacobsen gets the minutes whenever possible. Makes sense to me.

Marion isn't comfortable playing PF at all, though.

JJ had another huge game, going 13 of 24 and made 5 assists. In one sequense, he posted up Andre Miller and it was no contest.

I remember last year, JJ couldn't even post up Boykins.

Amazing...

 

[Joe Mama]

The great thing about Joe Johnson's performance tonight is that he was probably the Suns best defender as well.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Harvey has no place in the Suns' future plans, but Jacobsen might. (Or, he might have trade value, while Harvey's contract expires after the season.) So, Jacobsen gets the minutes whenever possible. Makes sense to me.

I disagree. I think the Suns will bring back Harvey at something under $1 million next season unless they draft Okafor. Harvey is a lot like Bo and the Suns learned they needed a guy like that.

I suspect the Suns will protect Jacobsen during expansion because he would be relatively affordable and may turn into a player SOMEDAY. My prediction for protection:

Stoudemire
Johnson
Marion
Cabakapa
Barbosa
Lampe
Voskuhl
Jacobsen

 

[fordronken]

I really didn't have too much trouble with Marion's play tonight. Poor shooting is just poor shooting. A lot of them were good shots. It was just mental mistakes and Howard Eisley that killed us in the fourth(and some reeeeeeeediculous shots by the Nuggets for a little stretch in the third).

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I disagree. I think the Suns will bring back Harvey at something under $1 million next season unless they draft Okafor. Harvey is a lot like Bo and the Suns learned they needed a guy like that.

I suspect the Suns will protect Jacobsen during expansion because he would be relatively affordable and may turn into a player SOMEDAY. My prediction for protection:

Stoudemire
Johnson
Marion
Cabakapa
Barbosa
Lampe
Voskuhl
Jacobsen

I think that is exactly right. Eisley and White will be unprotected. Unless of course they want the Bobcats to take Casey. That would be roughly 1.5 million off their cap, and the Cats would most likely take him if he were unprotected.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by fordronken
I really didn't have too much trouble with Marion's play tonight. Poor shooting is just poor shooting. A lot of them were good shots. It was just mental mistakes and Howard Eisley that killed us in the fourth(and some reeeeeeeediculous shots by the Nuggets for a little stretch in the third).

Marion has slow release on his jump shot. When he is pressured and has to rush it, he rarely hits it. None the less, he did have several shots rim out including some that are what he should be taking. My biggest concern is that he seems very adverse to contact (much more than in the past) and does not finish at the basket like he should.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Originally posted by sly fly
What, are you going to ban me?

Marion's shot in and out?? Like the one from the corner with under a minute left? C'mon, man.

If you don't agree with what I say, then refute it. Tell me why Marion was not the problem. No, he wasn't the only problem. But, he's supposed to be a leader out there... and he's not showing it.

Excusing Marion's poor performance because he has to play PF is wrong. What does not being able to run a simple fast break have to do with being a PF???

Heck, if he's matching up with PF's, he should be blowing right by them and finishing at the rim.

Please...I said quit hating because you chase Marion like he somehow has wronged you personally.

I am not going to say Marion had a great game. I am not going to say he is this disaster of a player that you make him out to be.

The truth is somewhere inbetween. He had a poor night shooting. Several of his floaters rimmed in and out. He had his shot blocked and altered repeatedly by Camby.

Now for the other side of the coin. He was the Suns best rebounder. You don't compile 15 rebounds, 8 offensive...by simply getting "lucky wide open ones".

He was disruptive in the pass lanes and played decent defense.

Sure, had Marion shot even 40% from the field, then the Suns would have won.

If Jake Voskul didn't commit stupid foul after stupid foul in the fourth quarter, the Suns might have won.

If the Barbosa had played more than 27 minutes, then the Suns might have won.

If Zarko stopped playing like a wuss, then the Suns might have won.

If the Suns actually played a PF for more than a handful of minutes, the Sun might have won (a total of 25 minutes if you include Zarko). In fact, I am pretty sure they could have kept Camby from completely dominating the game.

I didn't even buy into your childish little sniping. I just answered your questions. Hope you take that as an example.

 

[Jerry Colengelo]

I agree. Marion has stepped up since the trade and played good ball for us... with little respect. Now he plays a dog of a game and everyone's riding him like the town ho.

 

[George O'Brien]

This debate over Marion is getting really old. Marion has a big contract and does not have the shooting skills that might be expected from someone with his pay. Marion's contribution tends to be in other areas like rebounding, steals, blocked shots, and he plays pretty good defense.

Are what Shawn does worth the price? Probably not. But for people who want to sign Kobe, unloading Shawn may be the only way it happens so bashing him is part of the process.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Please...I said quit hating because you chase Marion like he somehow has wronged you personally.

I am not going to say Marion had a great game. I am not going to say he is this disaster of a player that you make him out to be.

The truth is somewhere inbetween. He had a poor night shooting. Several of his floaters rimmed in and out. He had his shot blocked and altered repeatedly by Camby.

Now for the other side of the coin. He was the Suns best rebounder. You don't compile 15 rebounds, 8 offensive...by simply getting "lucky wide open ones".

He was disruptive in the pass lanes and played decent defense.

Sure, had Marion shot even 40% from the field, then the Suns would have won.

If Jake Voskul didn't commit stupid foul after stupid foul in the fourth quarter, the Suns might have won.

If the Barbosa had played more than 27 minutes, then the Suns might have won.

If Zarko stopped playing like a wuss, then the Suns might have won.

If the Suns actually played a PF for more than a handful of minutes, the Sun might have won (a total of 25 minutes if you include Zarko). In fact, I am pretty sure they could have kept Camby from completely dominating the game.

I didn't even buy into your childish little sniping. I just answered your questions. Hope you take that as an example.

I guess I'm the only guy in this universe who sees serious holes in Marion's game. I've never dogged him personally. I've just pointed out flaws that bug the hell out of me. Everybody else wants to justify his poor defense (abused by Melo/pump faked by Boykins!) and shooting (rimmed several in and out).

If you're satisfied with his game, great. More power to you.

Marion is a great talent in many regards. Is he a player that will help lead the Suns back to prominence? I highly doubt it.

- Zarko? Wuss? No, rookie.

- Barbosa more than 27 minutes? No, he was being eaten alive by Miller on the other end.

- Jake Voskuhl is the least of the Suns worries.

Snipe-free...

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by sly fly
I guess I'm the only guy in this universe who sees serious holes in Marion's game. I've never dogged him personally. I've just pointed out flaws that bug the hell out of me. Everybody else wants to justify his poor defense (abused by Melo/pump faked by Boykins!) and shooting (rimmed several in and out).

I have said before, I think the Suns need a defense guru so they learn:

1. Move their feet
2. How to force players away from their prefered shooting spots
3. How to pick up trailers on the fast break
4. How to hold their ground and not jump when guarding on the outside
5. How to avoid using making dumb fouls

On the other hand, some of the shots the Nuggets were making were simply impossible to stop.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I have said before, I think the Suns need a defense guru so they learn:

1. Move their feet
2. How to force players away from their prefered shooting spots
3. How to pick up trailers on the fast break
4. How to hold their ground and not jump when guarding on the outside
5. How to avoid using making dumb fouls

On the other hand, some of the shots the Nuggets were making were simply impossible to stop.

George, a defense guru sounds great. But, it wouldn't help. Defense players are born. You simply can't make a poor defender become a good defender. You want to play D or you don't.

A "possible" exception to this point is if said player is introduced to Coach K or Bobby Knight for 4 years. Only then would a poor defender possibly become a half-way decent defender.

By the time most of these players reach the NBA, most should know how to play D. But, most of the players coming into this league are known strictly for their offensive game. And, they've never been asked to play D at any point in their career.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by sly fly
George, a defense guru sounds great. But, it wouldn't help. Defense players are born. You simply can't make a poor defender become a good defender. You want to play D or you don't.

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. High school players can be tought defense right away. Amare is a good example of that.

The thing is, a great offensive player is a lot easier to find than a great defensive player.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Originally posted by sly fly


- Zarko? Wuss? No, rookie.

- Barbosa more than 27 minutes? No, he was being eaten alive by Miller on the other end.

- Jake Voskuhl is the least of the Suns worries.

Zarko can't find a rebound despite being 6'11".

His game has really changed since his injury. He used to fly to the hoop. Now he just sits on the perimeter and hoists up 3s and long jumpers.

Hopefully he can regain that aggressiveness that he had earler this season. Unfortunately major injuries where players are injured by other players seems to really mess with the heads of those players.

Before Marion got undercut by Starks he was a mad slasher.

As to Barbosa, JJ was guarding Miller for most of the second half. Ultimately though the Suns lack of a legitimate inside presence is what lets Miller have such nice games against us.

As to Jake, he really did cost us 2 hoops in the 4th quarter with his offensive fouls. I wouldn't say he is a Suns worry, but those fouls came at the worst possible time.

 

[cardsunsfan]

The thing that is infuriating about Marion is he used to be quite good now I think he is actually I detriment... I think Marion lost us that game, When one player shoots that many times and misses that many shots your going to lose most of the time. Yeah we had other problems but none of them were more significant than Marions problems...

 

[NugzFan]

nice game guys!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Appharently Marion threw up during the Nuggets game...all over D'Antoni's shoes.

I think Denver is poisoning our players

 

[Joe Mama]

Chris, Zarko Cabarkapa made his only two shots going strong for the basket. He did not get any rebounds, but he was active on the boards tipping the ball back out to his teammates. Still, he does have a long way to go.

Shawn Marion had trouble defending Anthony on a few possessions, but overall his and JJ's defense on Anthony was good. In the fourth quarter Anthony hit long shots on each of them where he was defended excellently. I've been complaining about Marion's defense being overrated for some time, but last night I did not think it was much of a problem.

Unfortunately it seems like Shawn Marion has caught a big case of the inconsistencies. JJ looks like he has finally gotten over it. I actually think Marion will do better when Amare Stoudemire returns although it might not happen Friday against Bowen. Who knows? San Antonio may very well put Bowen on JJ.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I actually think Marion will do better when Amare Stoudemire returns although it might not happen Friday against Bowen. Joe Mama

Isn't that what complementary players are supposed to playing with stars?

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Overall, I thought that the Suns played a pretty good game. It sure looked better then the last time we played Denver.

Heres my opinion of why the Suns lost.
1. Marion can not create shots for himself.
2. The FT edge was huge for Denver. The Suns really missed Amare in this game. Amare is about the only person on this team that gets to the line with some consistancy. He also can create double teams.
3. Jake made a stupid foul which was a 4 point swing late in the game. The next time down the court, Earl completly reaches around Eisley to strip the ball, which should of been called as a foul, but it was not.
4. Camby makes a very lucky shot with the clock expiring to take a 5 point lead.

I'll take the lose and pretty much be happy with it, because our boys showed hustle and matched Denver's intensity. Denver is a great home team, and if we can compete in Denver then I like the direction this team is heading.

 

[sly fly]

The thing that bothered me about this loss was that Denver was coming off a game against Utah the night before. And, PHX was essentially waiting for Denver to arrive. Denver was tired, and PHX still couldn't get the W.

After watching Denver play a few times, I really think they may cause waves in the palyoffs. Carmello Anthony has unbelievable game, and has the smarts to go along with it.

Marcus Camby (when healthy), is a top-5 center. Voshon Leonard is a guy who can fill it up on any given night. Nene's going to be a force down low in the very near future. And, their bench is full of complimentary players, albeit mostly young.

Kiki has done a super job of picking talent. And, he can thank the Detroit Pistons (Darko) for most of their success.