Suns Off-season Thread

[Covert Rain]

Russell Westbrook is ultimately like Charles Barkley or Allen Iverson: a great talent but a loser as far as winning a championship. It doesn't interest me how many whatever and whatever Westbrook averaged. I only wonder why it didn't lead him anywhere near a championship, and blame him for it.

You can say "he does what he's paid to do, win games" only if you think all games matter equally. That is, only if you think regular-season games are as important as playoff games.

There is a bit of luck involved with winning a title in this league. You have to be on a team with the right chemistry, the right coach, the right system, being good at the right time (i.e. other teams could have been good enough but ran into teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Bulls dynasties). You have to have a supportive owner. There are a ton of factors involved that are completely out of the hands of the players. So, no matter how great you are it doesn't mean you will win a title. Barkley was unstoppable in his prime and one of the best PF EVER bar none. Not winning a title doesn't make a player a loser.

Now if you said certain guys in this league are natural losers because they are toxic to their organization, destroy chemistry that is different. Those guys exist. For example, Allan Iverson is probably on my list. No not because of the stupid "practice" speech. Because he was notorious for showing up late for practices, not studying other teams and there were examples where he refused to comeback into games which takes its toll. Marbury fought with every coach he ever played for. Sprewell fought with teammates and coaches. Again, not saying it's not debatable but I can buy the argument about guys like this being losers. Has nothing to do with titles.

 

[Mainstreet]

There is a bit of luck involved with winning a title in this league. You have to be on a team with the right chemistry, the right coach, the right system, being good at the right time (i.e. other teams could have been good enough but ran into teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Bulls dynasties). You have to have a supportive owner. There are a ton of factors involved that are completely out of the hands of the players. So, no matter how great you are it doesn't mean you will win a title. Barkley was unstoppable in his prime and one of the best PF EVER bar none. Not winning a title doesn't make a player a loser.

Now if you said certain guys in this league are natural losers because they are toxic to their organization, destroy chemistry that is different. Those guys exist. For example, Allan Iverson is probably on my list. No not because of the stupid "practice" thing. He was notorious for showing up late for practices, not studying other teams and there were examples where he refused to comeback into games. Marbury fought with every coach he ever played for. Sprewell fought with teammates and coaches. Again, not saying it's not debatable but I can buy the argument about guys like this being losers. Has nothing to do with titles.

Interestingly enough, Stephon Marbury was well-behaved in Phoenix.

 

[Covert Rain]

Interestingly enough, Stephon Marbury was well-behaved in Phoenix.

I think by the time he got here the writing was on the wall he wouldn't have any more chances.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think by the time he got here the writing was on the wall he wouldn't have any more chances.

Also, I think Jerry Colangelo had one of those talks with him before the trade.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Jason Kidd's off the court problems had a lot to do with the Suns trading him to the Nets.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think Jason Kidd's off the court problems had a lot to do with the Suns trading him to the Nets.

Kidd became a PR nightmare once it came out he hit his wife. The Suns moved pretty quickly after that to move him. IMO, Kidd shouldn't be anywhere near the league.

 

[Covert Rain]

And one can also take this opportunity to be fair and note that, although Marbury was never anything here but the best available replacement for the disgraced Jason Kidd, Marbury didn't do anything wrong while he was here. And as far I know, Marbury was traded away only because he and Penny Hardaway were too expensive. (I only just put two and two together: Colangelo was about to retire, and it was appropriate to shed payroll.) ...Marbury did lead the Suns to an acceptable record and the playoffs in '02, where they gave the Spurs a decent fight and some memorable games...

Marbury didn't have a choice. It was pretty well perceived as his last chance. He burnt bridges every team he went to.

About Montrezl Harrell's radioactivity. This isn't Jerry Colangelo's Suns organization. I have no reason to believe this organization cares in the slightest about moral turpitude by players, or about anything at all except money.

Why they nevertheless won't sign him: because Robert Sarver is in a lot of trouble with the media already. Signing a player who just got in trouble with the law would make him look worse. I believe he has probably circled the wagons and is trying to tread carefully.

And maybe he demands more money than someone who would be lucky to have a job deserves. The sort of apparent sleazeball who would carry several pounds of drugs in his vehicle might be like Latrell Sprewell, demanding more because he's got a family to feed. (Yeah, that's still funny after all these years, because of how obnoxious it is.) I wonder what kind of contracts he had before...hmm. $9 million or so. I wouldn't pay him that.

Dude was stupid but let's not pretend he is beating his wife, murdering someone or anything close to that. He was carrying pot. Pot which is legal in most states. Provided, not in that quantity but it was less than the Federal limit for being called a dealer. He is no boy scout but let's not overreact. If he does what he should do and stays clean he deserves a second chance.

If you knew what half these players do outside of games you might not like many players. I don't need a player to be a boy scout because many are anything but. It's freaking pot. It would be a risk for sure because you would have to depend on him not doing anything else stupid.

If I were the Suns, you go after him, add a morality clause or something in his contract and give him a very short runway.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not exactly disagreeing; I feel ambivalent. Signing a stupid drug-hauler wouldn't actually lead me to despise Robert Sarver's organization--because I already do. So...I'm not sure I wouldn't sign Harrell.

Whether the Suns should get Harrell and whether they will are not the same question to me. There are still questions of money (how much Harrell wants) and whether Robert Sarver has the nerve to sign a radioactive player--I don't think he does. I wouldn't offer Harrell anything like his previous $9 million under the circumstances. If he wants to be paid another $9 million as though he didn't just get in trouble, I'd laugh at him.

I am not sure he is radioactive just yet. I mean if he learned his lesson and goes straight for the rest of this career nobody will consider him radioactive. Radioactive to me is a player that you must avoid at all costs and fails at chance after chance. I don't think Harrell is that player yet.

Assuming he goes on the straight and narrow, Harrell could be a great pickup.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm not exactly disagreeing; I feel ambivalent. Signing a stupid drug-hauler wouldn't actually lead me to despise Robert Sarver's organization--because I already do. So...I'm not sure I wouldn't sign Harrell.

Then why are you here? Not trying to troll you. It's a sincere question. You are certainly allowed to be here if you want, I just can't imagine why you are if you feel like this about the team.

 

[Covert Rain]

The moral turpitude issue raises the interesting question of which owner, Jerry Colangelo or Robert Sarver, is stricter on their players. Despite the vague sense that Jerry Colangelo cared because he ran his organization as a family business, I think Robert Sarver keeps his players on a much shorter leash.

Haven't you noticed that except in a few cases (such as the Morrises, who were dumped as soon as possible), Suns players since Robert Sarver bought the Suns are wonderfully good at not embarrassing the organization? They don't get arrested (again, except the Morrises), and they rarely speak their minds publicly. If they do, they do it quietly and cryptically (such as Eric Bledsoe making a tweet); and it is not tolerated for long. They may complain about being unhappy , but there's very little public feuding. I imagine that Suns players have fought often enough but were trained to keep it quiet. Publicly, they're good little boys to a much greater extent than Jerry Colangelo's players were. Their dirty laundry usually stays out of the news.

I think Colangelo gave them a longer leash, and had more bad boys. I don't think Robert Sarver would ever have traded for Charles Barkley, because Barkley was much too independent-minded for the kind of organization I think Sarver runs. Nor would he have approved trading for Chris Paul if Paul had had a history of getting publicly in trouble--he doesn't. Paul was safe.

What Suns players under Jerry were allowed to stay once they got into trouble? Jerry was not a psychic and I think Sarver would have no issue trading for Barkley. CP3 speaks his mind just as much as Barkley did. I don't think overall that's a owner thing. That's a league thing. They crack down on players much harder than in the past. Suspensions and fines are all more severe now.

 

[Chaplin]

What's sad is not wanting a championship because of a single person in the organization. As if Sarver being owner is a black stain on Devin Booker, Monty Williams and Chris Paul.

 

[Yuma]

Well, yeah. Did anyone ever suppose there was some other reason?

I remember that my brother and I discussed mailing Jason Kidd a box of wifebeater shirts.

I thought about some french fries....

 

[Finito]

Ehh...recent Suns draft history. What exactly went wrong with the apparent draft bust Josh Jackson so that the Suns just gave up on him? I don't understand him, because when he got dumped, I had already walked away but was still occasionally reading Suns headlines. (I was home recovering from injuries circa 2018, and had a lot of time to read news. It was my next job that really had me paying no attention to what was going on. Basically, I didn't completely block out Suns basketball until 2019.)

But anyway, I didn't understand why Josh Jackson flamed out. I had the impression that he was the most solid prospect the Suns had drafted in years. He is probably the last straw, the draft pick whose failure made me wash my hands of the NBA draft, conceding that it's a hopeless crapshoot and the casual observer knows nothing. (Even the teams don't really know!) Case in point: At the time, JJ made me wonder if a Michael Finley comparison was somewhat accurate. I'll bet that if I researched them, I'd find that JJ didn't resemble Finley in the slightest.

Tons of talent just a world class clown of a person

 

[Carolinacacti]

FIBA EuroBasket 2022 | FIBA Basketball

View historical data, news, stats, games, results, calendar and more about FIBA EuroBasket 2022 on FIBA Basketbal. 2022

www.fiba.basketball

Saric had a bad game I'm afraid.

 

[Mainstreet]

Frank Kaminsky signed with the Hawks.

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[Germz249]

What is it going to take for us to get Bogdanovic and Clarkson from the Jazz? Will they be asking for the moon like Rudy and Mitchell?

 

[Mainstreet]

What is it going to take for us to get Bogdanovic and Clarkson from the Jazz? Will they be asking for the moon like Rudy and Mitchell?

For starters, matching about $33 million in salaries.

 

[Mainstreet]

@Germz249

Here is a hypothetical trade that works.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2hqyr2od

 

[Mainstreet]

FIBA EuroBasket 2022 | FIBA Basketball

View historical data, news, stats, games, results, calendar and more about FIBA EuroBasket 2022 on FIBA Basketbal. 2022

www.fiba.basketball

Saric had a bad game I'm afraid.

Dario Saric bounces back with a good game in win over Great Britain with 15 points, 8 rebounds and 5 assists.

From Arizona Sports:

“Dario needed a game like this,” Croatia head coach Damir Mulaomerovic said postgame. “When he scored first couple shots, he became Dario again. He was excellent tonight, doing his job very well. As a stretch 4, he was attacking, also (shot) creation.”

Suns' Dario Saric bounces back, leading Croatia to a FIBA EuroBasket win

Phoenix Suns forward Dario Saric stepped up for Croatia in a FIBA EuroBasket victory over Great Britain Saturday morning.

arizonasports.com

 

[Mainstreet]

It's interesting Bojan Bogdanovic also plays for Croatia.

 

[Phrazbit]

Does anyone think there is anything to J.R. Smith's allegations that the NBA "blackballed" him? I don't, mainly because I know no reason why it would blackball him; and especially no reason why it would blackball Joe Johnson, one of several other former players Smith claims that it blackballed. What would Joe Johnson have done to annoy the NBA?

The only players I know of that I believe the NBA blackballed are Kermit Washington, the player who fractured Rudy Tomjanovich's skull in 1977; and probably Dennis Rodman after he retired (to make sure such an independent-thinking player would never work again in the NBA in a non-player capacity).

No, JR Smith was, by almost any measure, one of the worst players in the entire league his last year in Cleveland, and someone still gave him a chance the next year and he was even worse.

Joe Johnson is 41 years old.

JR Smith is an idiot.

 

[Mainstreet]

If there is a discussion about players who got a raw deal, I think Joe Caldwell's name needs to be mentioned.

"CBS 60 Minutes" did a two part series on him. He played in the old ABA but never played in the NBA.

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[Yuma]

Well, for a period of time, former Suns great Connie Hawkins was DEFINITELY blackballed by the NBA.

 

[Finito]

No, JR Smith was, by almost any measure, one of the worst players in the entire league his last year in Cleveland, and someone still gave him a chance the next year and he was even worse.

Joe Johnson is 41 years old.

JR Smith is an idiot.

Joe Johnson played like 20 years in the NBA how on earth can you claim he was blackballed

Jr Smith just sucked and was an idiot, but a lot of times these guys can’t deal with it being there fault it has to be somebody elses

 

[Phrazbit]

Joe Johnson played like 20 years in the NBA how on earth can you claim he was blackballed

Jr Smith just sucked and was an idiot, but a lot of times these guys can’t deal with it being there fault it has to be somebody elses

Seriously, the only guy that JR lists in the clip that has a beef is Isaiah Thomas and his is because the Celtics doctors gave him bad advice and ruined his career. All those other dudes were flat out trash in their finals seasons.

The guy has zero self awareness. He seems to think the "Big 3" league is on par with the NBA.