Suns Off-season Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Except that isn't the argument. The discussion is whether we are a WORSE team right now. I don't think we are, but measured up to other teams like the Clippers means the gap we saw last season however small is non-existent.

How good you are only really matters in terms of relativity. I take no solace that we might be as good as we were if everyone caught to, or passed, us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sure we can trade them, the point is they aren't excess. No matter how you look at it, we wasted a LOT of draft capital that could help us now. Now, we can add by trade but it uses up our future picks or creates a weakness.

But no, Crowder and Cam Payne aren't tradable assets, they're filler.

Other than GS, who else has valuable assets that you would consider “excess?”

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If it was anyone other than OKC, I'd have hopes that our draft picks could net us SGA but our picks would be meaningless to that franchise. I guess we could try and get involved in a multi-team trade where we send out 3 or 4 unprotected firsts. If we could bring him in without losing anyone other than maybe CamP or Shamet plus the picks, that could really improve our chances.

I think I understand your general position now, Steve. You aren’t willing to trade any asset of substantial value. Ya gotta give to get. Enormously lopsided trades aren’t common.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think, on paper, that 4 unprotected firsts is a slight overpay but yeah, if we can find another trade partner, I'd make that deal too. Let's face it, barring serious misfortune, if we add SGA to our core of Booker, Ayton, Bridges and CamJ, our future picks wouldn't have a lot of value.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dario is weaker on defense, yes, but Dario is better on Offense. They are close to a wash IMO. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine. They are both bench role players.

They are different on offense. But I’m not sure saric is “better.” Saric clearly better three point shooter (though not great) and better passer. Javale much higher FG% and higher scoring average in fewer minutes. Plus, Javale gave us more than one additional offensive possession than did saric with his offensive rebounding.

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I disagree -- the West was arguably STRONGER 2 years ago than it was this past season. Yes, the West will be tougher this year, but again, I'm not talking about the Suns vs the rest of the West, I'm talking about the Suns with a healthy Dario vs last season's Suns. We likely agree when talking about the Suns vs the rest of the west in 2022-2023.

I think cheese is saying the west two years ago is likely weaker than the west in the upcoming year with a champion warriors, experienced griz, likely healthy Denver, kawhi clips, and experienced Dallas, and full year of Portland gifts New Orleans, not to mention more experienced and gobert’ed minny.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Other than GS, who else has valuable assets that you would consider “excess?”

Off the top of my head, Miami, New Orleans, Minnesota, Boston, Memphis, Cleveland, Atlanta, Milwaukee all have deep enough rosters to move players without immediately creating a void. And then you've got the teams like OKC, New York and such that have turned their bad seasons into stockpiled picks.

My point is that had we done our jobs well over the past several years, we'd have two or three more young role players or even stars in the making. Sure, we wouldn't have kept all of them but we should have retained some value from many of them instead of just wiping them off our books (sometimes using a draft pick to accompish that).

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think I understand your general position now, Steve. You aren’t willing to trade any asset of substantial value. Ya gotta give to get. Enormously lopsided trades aren’t common.

You think 3 or 4 unprotected picks over a 7 year period wouldn't constitute "substantial value"?

In this case, I can't think of who we could give up that would be enough to interest OKC. But sure, if they'd take Cam Johnson and 2/3 unprotected picks for SGA, I'd be interested. I'd consider a Bridges for SGA swap but I wouldn't load them up with picks in that case.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Off the top of my head, Miami, New Orleans, Minnesota, Boston, Memphis, Cleveland, Atlanta, Milwaukee all have deep enough rosters to move players without immediately creating a void. And then you've got the teams like OKC, New York and such that have turned their bad seasons into stockpiled picks.

My point is that had we done our jobs well over the past several years, we'd have two or three more young role players or even stars in the making. Sure, we wouldn't have kept all of them but we should have retained some value from many of them instead of just wiping them off our books (sometimes using a draft pick to accompish that).

I think you’re overvaluing our guys as indispensable and undervaluing other teams as excess. For instance, who are the excess for Miami?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You think 3 or 4 unprotected picks over a 7 year period wouldn't constitute "substantial value"?

In this case, I can't think of who we could give up that would be enough to interest OKC. But sure, if they'd take Cam Johnson and 2/3 unprotected picks for SGA, I'd be interested. I'd consider a Bridges for SGA swap but I wouldn't load them up with picks in that case.

Doesn’t matter. They wouldn’t be interested in cam or bridges. If SGA is tradable bc he no longer fits their timeline, neither do our twins.

 

[somethingshesaid]

I'd consider a Bridges for SGA swap but I wouldn't load them up with picks in that case.

I don't think I would even without picks, because I would be trading a defensive-player-of-the-year candidate starter for a guy who will come off the bench for a while until Chris Paul retires. If I should consider taking that away, please sell me on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. And I'm one of the people who is desperate for a superior backup point guard. I'd at least listen to an offer for Cameron Johnson straight up, though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think I would even without picks, because I would be trading a defensive-player-of-the-year candidate starter for a guy who will come off the bench for a while until Chris Paul retires. If I should consider taking that away, please sell me on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. And I'm one of the people who is desperate for a superior backup point guard. I'd at least listen to an offer for Cameron Johnson straight up, though.

Thinking of SGA as a backup is just silly. He’s a legit multipurpose threat. He definitely has more value at present than bridges.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think if the Suns offered Bridges, Cam J, 4 First rounders and possibly a swap (they can't offer 3 because the Nets I think traded all of them but 1 already - ICBW), the Nets likely would have said yes already. Celtics allegedly offered Jaylen Brown and the Nets said no. Which tells me they want picks AND players. Can anybody offer more than the Suns in a combo?

That tells me the Suns HAVE NOT offered that much. It's either players they will not part with, a number of picks they won't part with or some of both.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think I would even without picks, because I would be trading a defensive-player-of-the-year candidate starter for a guy who will come off the bench for a while until Chris Paul retires. If I should consider taking that away, please sell me on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. And I'm one of the people who is desperate for a superior backup point guard. I'd at least listen to an offer for Cameron Johnson straight up, though.

SGA would easily start at Bridges’ position.

And you’d at least listen to Cam Johnson for SGA straight up? Dude… do you actually watch any basketball?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think if the Suns offered Bridges, Cam J, 4 First rounders and possibly a swap (they can't offer 3 because the Nets I think traded all of them but 1 already - ICBW), the Nets likely would have said yes. I don't see how any other team can offer as much. Celtics allegedly offered Jaylen Brown and the Nets said no. Which tells me they want those picks AND players. Can anybody offer more than the Suns in a combo? That tells me the Suns HAVE NOT offered that much. It's either players they will not part with, a number of picks they won't part with or some of both.

Are you sure that's correct, not the number of picks they have but the NBA rules?

I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and I don't know the answer, but if the NBA allows a team to trade for the option to trade picks, is that swap then potentially tradable? If so, a team could acquire multiple swap options even if they didn't have corresponding picks. And then they could trade them to teams that would benefit by a positional swap or trade for picks that would make the swaps a good fit. This could ultimately make pick swaps more valuable.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think I would even without picks, because I would be trading a defensive-player-of-the-year candidate starter for a guy who will come off the bench for a while until Chris Paul retires. If I should consider taking that away, please sell me on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. And I'm one of the people who is desperate for a superior backup point guard. I'd at least listen to an offer for Cameron Johnson straight up, though.

I'm not sure if I'd trade Mikal for SGA, just that I'd consider it. I believe he struggled from December 4th on because he played with a dislocated finger which impacted him on both sides of the ball. I saw him grimace at times and appear to favor his off hand but I'm sitting on my couch taking wild guesses and I don't know if I'm really correct.

If those on the inside believe we just saw basically the best he has to offer, SGA is a nice upgrade and could be the perfect player to pair with Devin once CP3 retires. And until he retires, there's still plenty of minutes given that he'd take Shamet and Payne's spots as he's really a combo guard.

If I'm correct that the finger hampered him though and it's a problem that's now behind him, I'd consider him untradable. In the NBA, offense is more important than defense but you need some balance which typically requires at least one standout perimeter defender.

 

[Covert Rain]

Are you sure that's correct, not the number of picks they have but the NBA rules?

I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and I don't know the answer, but if the NBA allows a team to trade for the option to trade picks, is that swap then potentially tradable? If so, a team could acquire multiple swap options even if they didn't have corresponding picks. And then they could trade them to teams that would benefit by a positional swap or trade for picks that would make the swaps a good fit. This could ultimately make pick swaps more valuable.

You can trade 4 non-consecutive 1st round picks and 3 pick swaps in-between (7 picks maximum) from everything I have read. However, in this case, the Nets already traded several of their picks. I think someone posted they only have one of those 3 picks in-between left but I have not checked myself.

 

[Phrazbit]

Are you sure that's correct, not the number of picks they have but the NBA rules?

I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and I don't know the answer, but if the NBA allows a team to trade for the option to trade picks, is that swap then potentially tradable? If so, a team could acquire multiple swap options even if they didn't have corresponding picks. And then they could trade them to teams that would benefit by a positional swap or trade for picks that would make the swaps a good fit. This could ultimately make pick swaps more valuable.

I think you can have pick swaps with multiple teams in the same year. If we were to trade with Brooklyn, offering them pick swaps in the same years they gave Houston pick swap options I am pretty sure it would basically give Houston the right to take the best of the 3 picks, with Brooklyn taking 2nd best and us getting the worst.

However, the years Brooklyn can do it do not line up if they want to maximize the total number of actual picks as they are slotted to swap with Houston next year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You can trade 4 non-consecutive 1st round picks and 3 pick swaps in-between (7 picks maximum).

I understand, that's not what I'm talking about. I guess the answer is in the actual wording of the trade, I just don't know what the wording is. I know the team that is trading away the right for another team to swap with them is locked in with their naturnal pick but is there leeway in NBA trade rules to allow a team to trade for the right to swap picks and then turn around and sell that option to another club?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think you can have pick swaps with multiple teams in the same year. If we were to trade with Brooklyn, offering them pick swaps in the same years they gave Houston pick swap options I am pretty sure it would basically give Houston the right to take the best of the 3 picks, with Brooklyn taking 2nd best and us getting the worst.

However, the years Brooklyn can do it do not line up if they want to maximize the total number of actual picks as they are slotted to swap with Houston next year.

Okay and if that's the case, can they trade the swap rights itself to another club that owns a pick in that season? Or can they acquire a lousy pick in that year on the cheap and then use it for a pick swap?

 

[Covert Rain]

I understand, that's not what I'm talking about. I guess the answer is in the actual wording of the trade, I just don't know what the wording is. I know the team that is trading away the right for another team to swap with them is locked in with their naturnal pick but is there leeway in NBA trade rules to allow a team to trade for the right to swap picks and then turn around and sell that option to another club?

Ahhh. Good question. I wouldn't think so because it's an agreement between the two teams it's not actually trading a pick as I understand it. So, the other team technically doesn't own the pick. Only the right to swap the pick. The entire purpose of the NBA swap pick is get around actually trading the pick itself and violating the NBA rules around trading consecutive picks.

 

[Phrazbit]

Okay and if that's the case, can they trade the swap rights itself to another club that owns a pick in that season? Or can they acquire a lousy pick in that year on the cheap and then use it for a pick swap?

They cannot acquire a crappy pick and then swap that to us, I am certain of that, the only reason they could hypothetically involve us in the Houston swap is because that deal is already in place, we'd be jumping in on the back end of that.

If they can trade the swap right to someone else... I don't see how, the pick swap is attached to their pick and they can't trade any of their own picks because of the alternating year rules. If at the end of the line they finally had their own pick in back to back years I think they might be able to trade the swap option but their pick would still be what is being swap with so it wouldn't change anything from our perspective.

 

[capologist]

I think if the Suns offered Bridges, Cam J, 4 First rounders and possibly a swap (they can't offer 3 because the Nets I think traded all of them but 1 already - ICBW), the Nets likely would have said yes already.

I can almost guarantee that, since the package you’re describing is the best we can possibly offer. (Book and DA are legally untradeable.)

The fact that the Nets are still talking to us means they think we might offer more than we have so far. If we’d already offered everything we can legally offer and it wasn’t enough, discussions would be over.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ahhh. Good question. I wouldn't think so because it's an agreement between the two teams it's not actually trading a pick as I understand it. So, the other team technically doesn't own the pick. Only the right to swap the pick. The entire purpose of the NBA swap pick is get around actually trading the pick itself.

Yeah, I know it was a Stepien workaround, I just don't know how much specificity there is in the wording of the trade. If it allows for the team to decide which first round pick that year that they will choose to swap then I could see the possibility of the swap itself being used in further trades. Which might mean you wouldn't actually have to own a pick in that year to get value out of a pick swap.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm not sure if I'd trade Mikal for SGA, just that I'd consider it. I believe he struggled from December 4th on because he played with a dislocated finger which impacted him on both sides of the ball. I saw him grimace at times and appear to favor his off hand but I'm sitting on my couch taking wild guesses and I don't know if I'm really correct.

If those on the inside believe we just saw basically the best he has to offer, SGA is a nice upgrade and could be the perfect player to pair with Devin once CP3 retires. And until he retires, there's still plenty of minutes given that he'd take Shamet and Payne's spots as he's really a combo guard.

If I'm correct that the finger hampered him though and it's a problem that's now behind him, I'd consider him untradable. In the NBA, offense is more important than defense but you need some balance which typically requires at least one standout perimeter defender.

And… the finger just magically healed for a month and half when he actually played well?

Bridges… untradeable? Man… the way some players are overvalued here just always amazes me.