Suns Reject Pacers offer of Hibbert for Dragic

[Phrazbit]

Len wasn't wearing the boot in this picture or when he went on stage when he was drafted. He just wore it for the pictures after the draft I believe.

I distinctly remember watching him in the walking boot during the draft. Pretty sure people talked about it in the draft thread.

 

[Phrazbit]

And I'm not quite sure in what way Len is NOT a stiff... he is slow as molasses in transition, he cant dunk unless he is spoon fed at the rim, he appears to have about a 10 inch vertical, he has dreadful hands, his 1-6.5 turnover ratio does not speak well for his ball handling ability.

Not much looked fluid, fast or agile about Len's game. If I had to point out one player on our roster as "stiff", it would be him by a country mile.

I realize that someone here is going to question the "credibility" of such an assessment, but this agile, athletic Len some talk about seems to only exist in text, or perhaps some grainy 5 year old videos from Eastern Europe.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And I'm not quite sure in what way Len is NOT a stiff... he is slow as molasses in transition, he cant dunk unless he is spoon fed at the rim, he appears to have about a 10 inch vertical, he has dreadful hands, his 1-6.5 turnover ratio does not speak well for his ball handling ability.

Not much looked fluid, fast or agile about Len's game. If I had to point out one player on our roster as "stiff", it would be him by a country mile.

I realize that someone here is going to question the "credibility" of such an assessment, but this agile, athletic Len some talk about seems to only exist in text, or perhaps some grainy 5 year old videos from Eastern Europe.

I think you're wrong on Len but I don't think the other guy is quite right either. Len isn't a stiff although he looked that way at times early in the season. Most of his problems on the court seemed to be mental. If he gets that sorted out I don't think we're going to have a problem with his athleticism.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

Perhaps I am off when it comes to my understanding of the word "stiff" when it comes to basketball, to me, a "stiff" is the same thing as a "scrub" or a "terrible player" and it has far less to do with movement, athleticism (though I would argue that less is a lot less mobile, agile, quick, athletic, etc than some people claim.)

To me, Haddadi is a better player than Len right now. Len is useless. I am not claiming he'll not develop into a serviceable player, but right now he is terrible.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I distinctly remember watching him in the walking boot during the draft. Pretty sure people talked about it in the draft thread.

I read an article at the time that said he took it off to go on stage.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Perhaps I am off when it comes to my understanding of the word "stiff" when it comes to basketball, to me, a "stiff" is the same thing as a "scrub" or a "terrible player" and it has far less to do with movement, athleticism (though I would argue that less is a lot less mobile, agile, quick, athletic, etc than some people claim.)

To me, Haddadi is a better player than Len right now. Len is useless. I am not claiming he'll not develop into a serviceable player, but right now he is terrible.

How can anyone know what he is "right now"? No one has seen him play any time in 6 months or more. Even then, it was time recovering from back surgery. There is no possible way to make any kind of reasonable evaluation.

 

[devilalum]

Evaluating a 7 foot rookie center after one season when he was recovering from major foot surgery is a waste of time. He could go either way. Centers take time, he's 21 years old?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Perhaps I am off when it comes to my understanding of the word "stiff" when it comes to basketball, to me, a "stiff" is the same thing as a "scrub" or a "terrible player" and it has far less to do with movement, athleticism (though I would argue that less is a lot less mobile, agile, quick, athletic, etc than some people claim.)

To me, Haddadi is a better player than Len right now. Len is useless. I am not claiming he'll not develop into a serviceable player, but right now he is terrible.

Well, I would agree that he hasn't had value to this point and if that's the definition of "stiff" that we're working with, I'd agree with it. But it would have been unreasonable to expect him to have value thus far given how raw he was and the fact he'd missed most of the off season stuff due to injury. But I don't think he moved like a stiff as the season wore on and that appeared to be Pbit's position IMO.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Evaluating a 7 foot rookie center after one season when he was recovering from major foot surgery is a waste of time. He could go either way. Centers take time, he's 21 years old?

I'm not trying to say its all over for him, he might develop into something. But at the time of the draft I had really low expectations for him as a player and last season he did nothing to change that, if anything he looked worse than I expected him to.

Well, I would agree that he hasn't had value to this point and if that's the definition of "stiff" that we're working with, I'd agree with it. But it would have been unreasonable to expect him to have value thus far given how raw he was and the fact he'd missed most of the off season stuff due to injury. But I don't think he moved like a stiff as the season wore on and that appeared to be Pbit's position IMO.

Steve

I should clarify that I don't consider him to the the slowest most awkward guy in the league, but he looks like what he is... a 7+ foot white center, not the agile dude some make him out to be, or some at draft time billed him to be.

I think most of us considered Lopez to be "stiff" in his play and I thought that he moved around a lot better than Len did last season.

 

[SirStefan32]

Well, I would agree that he hasn't had value to this point and if that's the definition of "stiff" that we're working with, I'd agree with it. But it would have been unreasonable to expect him to have value thus far given how raw he was and the fact he'd missed most of the off season stuff due to injury. But I don't think he moved like a stiff as the season wore on and that appeared to be Pbit's position IMO.

Steve

I don't disagree with any of that. He's a young kid coming off an injury. My expectations for the first two or even three years are non-existent.

As far as his movement goes, I think he looks slower than he is because he was always completely lost on the floor. I think he can move just fine, he just doesn't have any idea as to where and when he should move.

 

[JCSunsfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5coMT6Cr3Y

This is basically all we have. Doesn't look stiff to me. But thats just me I guess.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not trying to say its all over for him, he might develop into something. But at the time of the draft I had really low expectations for him as a player and last season he did nothing to change that, if anything he looked worse than I expected him to.





I should clarify that I don't consider him to the the slowest most awkward guy in the league, but he looks like what he is... a 7+ foot white center, not the agile dude some make him out to be, or some at draft time billed him to be.

I think most of us considered Lopez to be "stiff" in his play and I thought that he moved around a lot better than Len did last season.

I would suggest that you didn't see much of Len once he got into shape last year? I thought he moved far better than Lopez. He was faster and more fluid and looked more comfortable in his body than Robin ever did. The big problem to me was that he often looked like he was a little dazed out there at times, with no idea where to go.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I would suggest that you didn't see much of Len once he got into shape last year? I thought he moved far better than Lopez. He was faster and more fluid and looked more comfortable in his body than Robin ever did. The big problem to me was that he often looked like he was a little dazed out there at times, with no idea where to go.

Steve

As other posters (including myself) and you have noticed, it seems to be a mental thing more than a physical thing. He still needs to learn the game and where he is supposed to be on the court.

 

[Errntknght]

After all the stiff centers we've had over the years, Len is the picture of fluidity. In no particular order: Joe Kleine, Big Daddy, both Jakes, Robin, James Edwards, Haddadi, Neal Walk, Dennis Awtrey, Rich Kelley, Rick Robey, Andrew Lang, Daniel Santiago, Longley, Stephen Hunter. There are more I'm sure but my head is aching. Not all of them were useless by any means but graceful they were not. Robin has clearly improved since he left and he may look better now, too.

Last year about this time I predicted that Len would be the best center Phoenix has ever had... I'm a llittle less sure of it now than I was then because he has gained very little in court awareness after one year. I hope Jeff plays to his strength - guarding one player - to bolster his confidence and plays him in longer stretches.

 

[devilalum]

I would suggest that you didn't see much of Len once he got into shape last year? I thought he moved far better than Lopez. He was faster and more fluid and looked more comfortable in his body than Robin ever did. The big problem to me was that he often looked like he was a little dazed out there at times, with no idea where to go.

Steve

And this is a learning thing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And this is a learning thing.

Absolutely.

Steve

 

[SwingMan]

Gotta keep in mind that Len was without the benefit of either summer league or training camp last year, so, unlike the rest, he had to learn on the fly

He had one summer league game this year before he broke a little finger - knocking on wood that he'll be issue-free for training camp. He's definitely been bulking up, though - from late spring :

http://instagram.com/p/ouJ330x-bO/

 

[Superbone]

After all the stiff centers we've had over the years, Len is the picture of fluidity. In no particular order: Joe Kleine, Big Daddy, both Jakes, Robin, James Edwards, Haddadi, Neal Walk, Dennis Awtrey, Rich Kelley, Rick Robey, Andrew Lang, Daniel Santiago, Longley, Stephen Hunter. There are more I'm sure but my head is aching. Not all of them were useless by any means but graceful they were not. Robin has clearly improved since he left and he may look better now, too.

Last year about this time I predicted that Len would be the best center Phoenix has ever had... I'm a llittle less sure of it now than I was then because he has gained very little in court awareness after one year. I hope Jeff plays to his strength - guarding one player - to bolster his confidence and plays him in longer stretches.

I never got the pleasure of watching Neal Walk but I can't imagine he was a stiff while averaging 20/10 for a couple years.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I never got the pleasure of watching Neal Walk but I can't imagine he was a stiff while averaging 20/10 for a couple years.

He wasn't a complete stiff but it wasn't a pretty 20 and 10 that's for sure.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

IIRC, Rich Kelley was q very good rebounder but it was almost painful watching him run... reminded me of the word 'galumphing' from Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky poem...
Haddadi was the most awkward player I've ever seen but he was reasonably effective none the less.

 

[elindholm]

Andrew Lang developed into a pretty serviceable player after leaving the Suns.

As usual, we're arguing about semantics. Some people are using "stiff" to mean "not able to engage the NBA game on its own terms" while other people believe it means something more specific about physique or mobility.

I don't think that anyone who is calling Len a stiff is saying that his physique is inadequate for the NBA. I agree that he appears to have no fundamental weaknesses in terms of agility or balance. Where I disagree strongly with some on this board is on the theoretical question of how easily the mind -- reflexes, anticipation, pattern recognition -- can train itself for NBA-level play.

I remember some interview with Barkley in which he said that they typical fan has no understanding of how good NBA players are. They know some guy at their school who's really good and think that he's close, but he isn't. I can't vouch for Barkley's claim in basketball, but I know it's true in my profession (music), so I bet he's right about basketball too.

Being successful in the NBA isn't just about getting "good"; it's about getting better than your opponents. Len will be up against players who are nearly as big, just as strong, and have been playing their whole lives. The skill and experience deficit he has to make up is huge. In what little I've seen of him, his presence on the court reeks of discomfort and general confusion. That is what I mean by calling him a "stiff," and it's an area in which progress comes slowly.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Andrew Lang developed into a pretty serviceable player after leaving the Suns.

As usual, we're arguing about semantics. Some people are using "stiff" to mean "not able to engage the NBA game on its own terms" while other people believe it means something more specific about physique or mobility.

I don't think that anyone who is calling Len a stiff is saying that his physique is inadequate for the NBA. I agree that he appears to have no fundamental weaknesses in terms of agility or balance. Where I disagree strongly with some on this board is on the theoretical question of how easily the mind -- reflexes, anticipation, pattern recognition -- can train itself for NBA-level play.

I remember some interview with Barkley in which he said that they typical fan has no understanding of how good NBA players are. They know some guy at their school who's really good and think that he's close, but he isn't. I can't vouch for Barkley's claim in basketball, but I know it's true in my profession (music), so I bet he's right about basketball too.

Being successful in the NBA isn't just about getting "good"; it's about getting better than your opponents. Len will be up against players who are nearly as big, just as strong, and have been playing their whole lives. The skill and experience deficit he has to make up is huge. In what little I've seen of him, his presence on the court reeks of discomfort and general confusion. That is what I mean by calling him a "stiff," and it's an area in which progress comes slowly.

Music is a very good comparison.

 

[Errntknght]

elindhold,

In what little I've seen of him, his presence on the court reeks of discomfort and general confusion.

I imagine you've done some coaching so you know that people learn almost nothing when they're uncomfortable and generally confused. You need to get them in their compfort zone and then extend the boundaries of that.
If you look at that highlight video you will see there are times when Len is not confused. Once a shot is up and a rebound in the offing he's not confused and when someone he sees closeby starts to shoot he loses his confusion or when he has the ball and the basket is one step away. Those situations are easy to read and he knows what to do - and he's fairly successful.
What you do to reduce the times of confusion is give him something specific to do the whole time he's on the floor. I would have one of the assistant coaches assigned to giving Len those specific things. Decide ahead of time who Len is going to defend in the next game then the assistant and he go over recent video of that player and work out what Len should do. Where on the floor does the guy like to get the ball - one of Len's tasks would naturally be preventing him from doing it. Where and how does he set screens - well defined ones and impromptu ones, how and where does he set up for rebounds. What dirty tactics does he employ. At the offensive end of the floor they should come up with tactics targeted at his specific defender as well.

If we see Len raoming or standing around looking lost this year like he did last year, its primarily bad coaching.

 

[Phrazbit]

elindhold,

I imagine you've done some coaching so you know that people learn almost nothing when they're uncomfortable and generally confused. You need to get them in their compfort zone and then extend the boundaries of that.
If you look at that highlight video you will see there are times when Len is not confused. Once a shot is up and a rebound in the offing he's not confused and when someone he sees closeby starts to shoot he loses his confusion or when he has the ball and the basket is one step away. Those situations are easy to read and he knows what to do - and he's fairly successful.
What you do to reduce the times of confusion is give him something specific to do the whole time he's on the floor. I would have one of the assistant coaches assigned to giving Len those specific things. Decide ahead of time who Len is going to defend in the next game then the assistant and he go over recent video of that player and work out what Len should do. Where on the floor does the guy like to get the ball - one of Len's tasks would naturally be preventing him from doing it. Where and how does he set screens - well defined ones and impromptu ones, how and where does he set up for rebounds. What dirty tactics does he employ. At the offensive end of the floor they should come up with tactics targeted at his specific defender as well.

If we see Len raoming or standing around looking lost this year like he did last year, its primarily bad coaching.

I disagree. Some guys just dont have the instincts to play the game, or have that drive and hustle that comes to some players naturally. I'm not trying to say that coaching has nothing to do with it, but with some guys it just does not click.

 

[Errntknght]

I disagree. Some guys just dont have the instincts to play the game, or have that drive and hustle that comes to some players naturally. I'm not trying to say that coaching has nothing to do with it, but with some guys it just does not click.

I can hardly disagree with such general statements but a good coach tries different approaches to find a way to make it click.