Suns Reject Pacers offer of Hibbert for Dragic

[JCSunsfan]

I disagree. Some guys just dont have the instincts to play the game, or have that drive and hustle that comes to some players naturally. I'm not trying to say that coaching has nothing to do with it, but with some guys it just does not click.

I don't see that in Len. Again. You are talking about a big man after one year of injury and very limited minutes. Its just way early to make that kind of assessment. He is about where I expected him to be at this moment.

 

[elindholm]

I imagine you've done some coaching so you know that people learn almost nothing when they're uncomfortable and generally confused. You need to get them in their compfort zone and then extend the boundaries of that.

I'm not an athlete, so I haven't done athletic coaching, but teaching is similar, and I've done plenty of that. Yes, you have to work with the student from where he is.

Those situations are easy to read and he knows what to do - and he's fairly successful.

Right. He can be successful when the task is conceptually easy and within his limited skill set.

I would have one of the assistant coaches assigned to giving Len those specific things. Decide ahead of time who Len is going to defend in the next game then the assistant and he go over recent video of that player and work out what Len should do.

I think that this could be an effective way of developing him. My point is that most of the players he'll be competing against have gone through this stage many years ago.

If we see Len raoming or standing around looking lost this year like he did last year, its primarily bad coaching.

I wouldn't go that far. How a game develops is not within any coach's control, and certainly not to the degree necessary to keep Len's inexperience from being exposed. If Len gets to be a factor and other teams realize that he is easily taken out of his comfort zone, then that's exactly what they'll do.

Len reminds me of Tsakalidis. I remember one game against the Jazz that came down to the final possession, with Utah having the ball. The Suns' coaching staff (whoever they were then) correctly predicted that Karl Malone would get the ball at the elbow. They set Tsakalidis up to smother Malone when that happened. He did it, Malone was caught by surprise, he couldn't get a shot up, and the Suns won. It was an effective play, but it did not mean that Tsakalidis was a good defender in general.

I'm sure that Len could come to our school gym and dominate. His body is large and functional and he does have some basketball skill. But the gap between him and a real NBA player is cavernous.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't see that in Len. Again. You are talking about a big man after one year of injury and very limited minutes. Its just way early to make that kind of assessment. He is about where I expected him to be at this moment.

My quoted line was in response to the idea that if Len does not get it together next year then bad coaching is probably to blame, while I think its more likely that if we dont see an improvement next year then Len probably just is not any good.

 

[Errntknght]

e,

I wouldn't go that far. How a game develops is not within any coach's control, and certainly not to the degree necessary to keep Len's inexperience from being exposed. If Len gets to be a factor and other teams realize that he is easily taken out of his comfort zone, then that's exactly what they'll do.

Len reminds me of Tsakalidis. I remember one game against the Jazz that came down to the final possession, with Utah having the ball. The Suns' coaching staff (whoever they were then) correctly predicted that Karl Malone would get the ball at the elbow. They set Tsakalidis up to smother Malone when that happened. He did it, Malone was caught by surprise, he couldn't get a shot up, and the Suns won. It was an effective play, but it did not mean that Tsakalidis was a good defender in general.

I expect Len's inexperience to be exposed many, many times over the next few years - the best of coaching can't help that. But supposing the Len is enjoined to focus on defending one man, and does it, how are the opponents going to force him out of his comfort zone? I guess they could take the guy off the floor but that's a win for Len. Incidentally, I wasn't thinking of Len being given cream puffs to defend - I'd look for the guys that presented the most challenge to him, someone worthy of being focused on.

Ah, yes, Big Jake - I see some parallel, too. He wasn't a great defender in general but there were stretches when he defended Shaq as well as anyone ever did. Too bad it wasn't something you could depend on. Skiles did a rotten job of utilizing him, IMO. It seemed like every time Jake picked up a foul Skiles promptly sat him down and once he got to four fouls that was it for the game. You'd think he was saving him for the end of the game but Skiles forgot that he never made an unforced substitution the last five minutes of a game - ever.

 

[Phrazbit]

NBA defense is too complicated to have one guy assigned strictly to one man. I know you're not being that literal but for Len to find a home in this league he needs to figure out how to position himself defensively, rotate on switches and defend without fouling. Those are all areas he was really really bad last season. If he was in position to challenge a shot one on one he could do that, its a simple task and one you'd hope a guy with his height could accomplish, but very frequently he ended up out of position or committing lazy fouls.

 

[sunsfan88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5coMT6Cr3Y

This is basically all we have. Doesn't look stiff to me. But thats just me I guess.

Considering his limited minutes and injuries, I didn't even know he had a highlight video worth 3-4 mins.

Good stuff.

 

[sunsfan88]

Stiff doesn't mean someone who is a scrub. Someone who is a scrub is a scrub.

Stiff means someone who doesn't have very good mobility. You could argue that Shaq was a stiff when he was in PHX despite being very productive. Perkins is a stiff. Hibbert is a stiff. Zach Randolph is a stiff.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Stiff doesn't mean someone who is a scrub. Someone who is a scrub is a scrub.

Stiff means someone who doesn't have very good mobility. You could argue that Shaq was a stiff when he was in PHX despite being very productive. Perkins is a stiff. Hibbert is a stiff. Zach Randolph is a stiff.

Randolph isn't a stiff. He may be ground bound, but he's still got handles, can take guys off the dribble every once in a while and had a fluid post up game that doesn't define stiffness.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't like to use the word "stiff" to describe a center. It takes a lot of talent just to play in the NBA. However, when I look at a team that threw mud at the wall and hoped it stuck, I always think of the 1985 draft when Dallas drafted Bill Wennington and Uwe Blab back to back with picks #16 and #17 respectively.

 

[3rdside]

http://youtu.be/Ajwa8j79vd0

Opening clips - tsakalidis and len really shouldn't appear in the same sentence. Agile feet, an eye for the basket and plenty of speed for a huge guy (he is so not a stiff). Give him some time - no guarantees from me that he'll be awesome but from what I can tell he's got a ton of potential.


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[Cheesebeef]

http://youtu.be/Ajwa8j79vd0

Opening clips - tsakalidis and len really shouldn't appear in the same sentence. Agile feet, an eye for the basket and plenty of speed for a huge guy (he is so not a stiff).

man, I just have never seen much evidence of his agile feet and have never seen any kind of speed out of him, much less plenty of it... even for a big man.

 

[Errntknght]

NBA defense is too complicated to have one guy assigned strictly to one man. I know you're not being that literal but for Len to find a home in this league he needs to figure out how to position himself defensively, rotate on switches and defend without fouling. Those are all areas he was really really bad last season. If he was in position to challenge a shot one on one he could do that, its a simple task and one you'd hope a guy with his height could accomplish, but very frequently he ended up out of position or committing lazy fouls.

Naturally, I agree about what Len needs to learn, the issue is how to best get him in a mindset on the floor that facilitates learning. I imagine you agree that is an issue the coach should concern himself with - and if he looks as confused on the floor as he did last year I'm going to consider it a coaching failure. (Opinions may vary, of course.)

To say he very frequently messed up on simple defensive plays is an exaggeration, though it did happen. He wound up with 18 blocks in 360 total minutes which pretty much precludes 'very frequent' screw ups - that's the same block rate as Plumlee, btw. He also got a nice block on Tony Parker at the basket in one of the games last year - and there are a lot of bigs around the league who haven't accomplished that feat.

 

[Phrazbit]

Blocks IMO are a poor indicator of solid defense. Amare had a decent block rate and he was the lord of interior defensive gaffs. Its great if a guy blocks shots, but if in between his 1 or 2 blocks a night he is frequently out of position, not closing out and fouling far too often, then its a net negative. I would say Len certainly was frequently in bad positions defensively. As mentioned, we were worse defensively with him in the game, teams shot a higher percentage with him out there and his foul rate was so high that it precluded any notion of him playing decent minutes.

 

[Chaz]

Blocks IMO are a poor indicator of solid defense. Amare had a decent block rate and he was the lord of interior defensive gaffs. Its great if a guy blocks shots, but if in between his 1 or 2 blocks a night he is frequently out of position, not closing out and fouling far too often, then its a net negative. I would say Len certainly was frequently in bad positions defensively. As mentioned, we were worse defensively with him in the game, teams shot a higher percentage with him out there and his foul rate was so high that it precluded any notion of him playing decent minutes.

It is true number of blocks by itself is a bad indicator. To me there are two kinds of shot blockers; weak side or recovery shot blockers and on the ball, straight up shot blockers. Len is the latter. When he is strong side straight up he can challenge or block even the biggest centers shots. He also has the body type to handle strong side post defense.
That is a pretty rare ability I think and makes him a more valuable prospect than a weak side shot blocker like Noel.

Of course it is all moot if he cant stay healthy and out of foul trouble but I can really see the potential in this kid.

 

[3rdside]

man, I just have never seen much evidence of his agile feet and have never seen any kind of speed out of him, much less plenty of it... even for a big man.

Move 3 in the vid - drives into the lane, shuffles feet, spins clockwise, two handed dunk?

I usually don't like the saying 'you can't teach size' but in len's case; with enough speed and skills (won't post any more of his vids but look on you tube - he has good hands and can get pretty creative with them) then it sounds believable.




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[JCSunsfan]

It is true number of blocks by itself is a bad indicator. To me there are two kinds of shot blockers; weak side or recovery shot blockers and on the ball, straight up shot blockers. Len is the latter. When he is strong side straight up he can challenge or block even the biggest centers shots. He also has the body type to handle strong side post defense.
That is a pretty rare ability I think and makes him a more valuable prospect than a weak side shot blocker like Noel.

Of course it is all moot if he cant stay healthy and out of foul trouble but I can really see the potential in this kid.

I was just about to say this same thing to the last post. Len is a straight up, Hibbert style blocker. It makes a huge difference. Even now, Len alters the game with his defensive presence inside.

 

[Errntknght]

Blocks IMO are a poor indicator of solid defense. Amare had a decent block rate and he was the lord of interior defensive gaffs. Its great if a guy blocks shots, but if in between his 1 or 2 blocks a night he is frequently out of position, not closing out and fouling far too often, then its a net negative. I would say Len certainly was frequently in bad positions defensively. As mentioned, we were worse defensively with him in the game, teams shot a higher percentage with him out there and his foul rate was so high that it precluded any notion of him playing decent minutes.

I won't reiterate JC's and Chaz rejoinders to this but I have another stat to add that counter indicates what I called your exaggerated claim. (From the player tracking data site)

Len contested 10.3 shots per 36 and opps FG% against him was 51.4%.
Comparisons on the team:
Plumlee 12/36 contested and 50.3%
Frye 8.3/36 contested and 52.2%
Markieff 6.74/36 contested and 56.1%

Not stellar but certainly not the stats of a guy who was very frequently botching straightforward defensive plays.

 

[Phrazbit]

I won't reiterate JC's and Chaz rejoinders to this but I have another stat to add that counter indicates what I called your exaggerated claim. (From the player tracking data site)

Len contested 10.3 shots per 36 and opps FG% against him was 51.4%.
Comparisons on the team:
Plumlee 12/36 contested and 50.3%
Frye 8.3/36 contested and 52.2%
Markieff 6.74/36 contested and 56.1%

Not stellar but certainly not the stats of a guy who was very frequently botching straightforward defensive plays.

I was not saying he was botching the easy plays. If a guy was right in front of him, he could contest. What I was saying is he was frequently putting himself in positions where he either could do nothing, or foul.

Here is what I said that started this line of conversation

If he was in position to challenge a shot one on one he could do that, its a simple task and one you'd hope a guy with his height could accomplish, but very frequently he ended up out of position or committing lazy fouls.

Looking at the way that reads I can see the confusion, I did a poor job of spacing two thoughts. But yes, Len can challenge shots with a decent degree of success when he is in the right spot. However, Len has very poor positioning, he does not rotate well, and he fouls a TON, which negates that shot altering ability and, at least last season, added up to a very poor defender.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Good discussion going on the last few pages. To re-iterate, I agree Len wasn't very good last year. My main point is that nearly all rookie big men playing spot minutes, or in their 1st 400 minutes, are "not very good" in terms of defensive awareness and basically everything offensively besides dunks ...

The other main point that I have is that a lot of times these things or just getting "comfortable" can improve very quickly ... Len won't reach his peak until at least 3-4 years, but I think he can improve drastically come mid-season this year.

And kind of off-topic, but Len's best offensive play last year (or Top 3) is not on that highlight video and I have barely heard it referenced anywhere, but in the Clippers game that he started on March 4th, he received a pass from a guard 10 ft. away from the basket and w/o dribbling drove to lay it in over Blake Griffin. It wasn't much (and a bit pathetic it was one of his best plays ...), but I think that play more than any other all season showed Len's agility/length ... The agility that he had from March-forward (His Vertical when he originally came back was terrible, so he was a "stiff" then)

(You can see the play I'm talking about on the link below ... and just clicking Len's 3 FG made; it's his 3rd one)

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300902&tabView=boxscore