Suns @ Rockets 4-7-16

[slinslin]

I don't really care about drafting 3rd or 4th since my favorites are probably Marquese Chriss or Skal Labissiere anyway.
Washington picking 12 or 13

What I do care about is losing 7% chance at a top 2 pick by dropping to 4th.

 

[3rdside]

3rd vs 4th comparison:

Top 3: 46.9% vs 37.8%

Top 2: 31.3% vs 24.5%

No.1: 15.6% vs 11.9%

Basically a one in three vs one in 4 chance for a top 2 pick by finishing 3rd or 4th; big difference.




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[3rdside]

Not to mention the Washington pick - we really, really didn't need that win


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[Hoop Head]

Sure the win was unnecessary but before everyone bashes every player, member of management, and coach for a "meaningless win" why not wait until the lottery to look back? There is still a damn good chance the Suns move up to #1 or #2, they're tied for #3 right now. I like how the Spurs tanking is often referenced when they got Duncan but they didn't finish with the worst record, it was the 3rd worst. Yes these losses hurt us but until they actually do the damage, i.e. when the season is over and the draft lottery takes place, there is no need to throw such a tantrum over a WIN! And that is what it sounds like from many of the people here, a serious tantrum because their favorite basketball team won a game.

 

[3rdside]

At the start of March 2013 we were tied for third worst record with Cleveland and the hornets. We won one more game than Cleveland in March and April (but less than the hornets) to finish outright fourth. Cleveland finishes third and goes on to get #1, we get #5.

It's a % game, like poker - play the odds as best you can; we are so close to the end of the season that anyone could forgive a deliberate tank from this point on. Fwiw, every time I play the draft simulator it seems much more likely that we move down rather than up; we just didn't need to make this likelihood any more likely.


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[JS22]

What a stupid game. Earl Watson should have benched Teletovic, Tucker and Chandler and played Jenkins, Goodwin and Williams instead.

I'm souring on Watson, won't miss him one bit if he isn't retained quite frankly.

Winning games because our washed up veteran players having a rare good game is the worst.

At this point I don't even know what to say. Watson is auditioning for a job. Therefore he is trying to win. Pretty simple. Fortunately this team is "talented" enough to lose plenty of games without purposely throwing them.

Edit: I've also read from other people that the FO should give Watson the OK to lose on purpose. Yeah, great idea. What if they give him the OK but don't retain him? I'm sure future teams would be lining up to hire a coach willing to lose games on purpose in an effort to get an extra ping pong ball.

 

[JS22]

What a fan club this team has.

Stupid loss, sure. But to call the franchise stupid because they didn't conform to your irresponsible concept of tanking is ridiculous. As much as you think to the contrary, maybe the team doesn't really want to lose. Crazy, I know.

They lose and get a high draft pick, guaranteed you will complain about the pick, so don't pretend that you know how a pro franchise should be run. You and guys like Sunsfan44 will NEVER be satisfied.

Chap, I hit this forum a few times a week and check in on the game threads. Inevitably it's nothing but the same 4-5 people complaining that the Suns aren't throwing games on purpose. I don't know why I occasionally chime in and try to outline how asinine that idea is... But here I am.

 

[JS22]

Mgmt does not play the games. In every business there are some things that are uncontrollable. The Houston Rockets showed up to this game expecting to get a win with no effort. When you are an NBA player, pride kicks in. Mirza, Chandler, and PJ just basically said, "Screw you. If you want a win, EARN it!"

Getting more numbers in the hopper is good. But forcing your players to surrender all personal pride cannot produce anything good.

Just thinking of a guy like Chandler going up for a dunk and saying to himself, "Oh ****! I better miss this dunk so we have a better chance at the #1 pick!" is laughable.

The counter-argument is "just don't play them." Yeah, that will go over REAL WELL with other players around the league. Purposely benching guys so you can get some extra ping pong balls. Hell, I'm sure Chandler, Tucker, etc would be thrilled as well. That wouldn't cause any potential locker room issues. No way.

But again, fortunately the Suns are crappy enough to lose most games on their own. So there's that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

At the start of March 2013 we were tied for third worst record with Cleveland and the hornets. We won one more game than Cleveland in March and April (but less than the hornets) to finish outright fourth. Cleveland finishes third and goes on to get #1, we get #5.

It's a % game

And the only reason we were tied with Cleveland in 13 was due to them going on a little winning stretch coming out of the all star break where they won 6 of 11 games. No tanking team loses all their games and your schedule has a lot to do with when you pick up a game or two. On the whole of it, we've done very well at tanking since we joined the losers group. Since December 10th we've had a grand total of 11 wins, that's losing at it's best.

No one here is thrilled about our win last night and the fact it MIGHT cost us some lottery balls. 10 years from now, odds are, we'll look back and realize it didn't effect our future one way or the other. But whether it ends up making a difference or not, I'm sure we'd all still prefer finishing 3rd instead of 4th.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just thinking of a guy like Chandler going up for a dunk and saying to himself, "Oh ****! I better miss this dunk so we have a better chance at the #1 pick!" is laughable.

The counter-argument is "just don't play them." Yeah, that will go over REAL WELL with other players around the league. Purposely benching guys so you can get some extra ping pong balls. Hell, I'm sure Chandler, Tucker, etc would be thrilled as well. That wouldn't cause any potential locker room issues. No way.

But again, fortunately the Suns are crappy enough to lose most games on their own. So there's that.

I don't think you can bench healthy players prior to a game like last night as it held held so much importance in the playoff race. But that's our last pivotal game, I see no reason we can't sit our older players from here on out.

 

[3rdside]

Chap, I hit this forum a few times a week and check in on the game threads. Inevitably it's nothing but the same 4-5 people complaining that the Suns aren't throwing games on purpose. I don't know why I occasionally chime in and try to outline how asinine that idea is... But here I am.

I don't think we've really tanked to date, we've just sucked, so with 4 games to go and the third worse record locked up - only just - it's surely not asinine....it's smart.

Simmons and possibly Ingram (IMO) are in the 'club redfiner' category so why not, seeing as we're hardly ever this bad shoot for#1? No-one, like i said, would fault us for losing out from here, and the players and the vets would have no problem buying in as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just thinking of a guy like Chandler going up for a dunk and saying to himself, "Oh ****! I better miss this dunk so we have a better chance at the #1 pick!" is laughable.

The counter-argument is "just don't play them." Yeah, that will go over REAL WELL with other players around the league. Purposely benching guys so you can get some extra ping pong balls. Hell, I'm sure Chandler, Tucker, etc would be thrilled as well. That wouldn't cause any potential locker room issues. No way.

A) who cares what Chandler and Tucker think? Those guys aren't gonna be part of the future of this team once it gets past this awful phase.

B) why do you even think they'd be so upset? It's not like they don't get paid for the game.

C) again, who cares what those guys think?

 

[3rdside]

And the only reason we were tied with Cleveland in 13 was due to them going on a little winning stretch coming out of the all star break where they won 6 of 11 games. No tanking team loses all their games and your schedule has a lot to do with when you pick up a game or two. On the whole of it, we've done very well at tanking since we joined the losers group. Since December 10th we've had a grand total of 11 wins, that's losing at it's best.

No one here is thrilled about our win last night and the fact it MIGHT cost us some lottery balls. 10 years from now, odds are, we'll look back and realize it didn't effect our future one way or the other. But whether it ends up making a difference or not, I'm sure we'd all still prefer finishing 3rd instead of 4th.

Whoever didn't get Duncan is not saying the same thing. Tanking is bad - I don't disagree - but just that we were in sole possession of third worst with 4 to go. If there was ever a time...

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think we've really tanked to date, we've just sucked, so with 4 games to go and the third worse record locked up - only just - it's surely not asinine....it's smart.

the only thing asinine here is expecting different results when the team does the same thing year in, year out... namely, won't commit to being bad enough to get the difference maker they need... even in a season when they've been abysmal.

but hey... what they've done in the last six years has worked great so far, so I guess I must be an idiot for wanting them to do different at the end of the year when there's literally nothing to play for but hurting your draft position.

 

[JCSunsfan]

the only thing asinine here is expecting different results when the team does the same thing year in, year out... namely, won't commit to being bad enough to get the difference maker they need... even in a season when they've been abysmal.

but hey... what they've done in the last six years has worked great so far, so I guess I must be an idiot for wanting them to do different at the end of the year when there's literally nothing to play for but hurting your draft position.

Going 21 and 61 is not committing to be bad? This year is nothing like previous years.

 

[AzStevenCal]

the only thing asinine here is expecting different results when the team does the same thing year in, year out... namely, won't commit to being bad enough to get the difference maker they need... even in a season when they've been abysmal.

but hey... what they've done in the last six years has worked great so far, so I guess I must be an idiot for wanting them to do different at the end of the year when there's literally nothing to play for but hurting your draft position.

We've done precisely what tanking teams have done. We've lost the vast majority of our games and occasionally picked up a win. Find me a team that loses every game. We're talking about probably dropping to 4th and a few months ago today's angry posters were complaining about us drafting 12th. The only reasonable thing we could have done to improve this tank job was to start it earlier. Considering our 7-5 start, a 21 win season is looking like a masterful tank job, helped along by a really bad roster.

 

[3rdside]

the only thing asinine here is expecting different results when the team does the same thing year in, year out... namely, won't commit to being bad enough to get the difference maker they need... even in a season when they've been abysmal.



but hey... what they've done in the last six years has worked great so far, so I guess I must be an idiot for wanting them to do different at the end of the year when there's literally nothing to play for but hurting your draft position.

Well dragic messed it for us a few years back, and when we picked 5th it was a weak draft; we're still probably gonna get someone good - I get the impression there's a lot of talent out there - but yeah, with 4 games to go this one's a head scratcher.

 

[3rdside]

We've done precisely what tanking teams have done. We've lost the vast majority of our games and occasionally picked up a win. Find me a team that loses every game. We're talking about probably dropping to 4th and a few months ago today's angry posters were complaining about us drafting 12th. The only reasonable thing we could have done to improve this tank job was to start it earlier. Considering our 7-5 start, a 21 win season is looking like a masterful tank job, helped along by a really bad roster.

You only need to consider things in light of "4 games left, sole possession of 3rd". Whatever happened before that is largely irrelevant even though it was a good effort to be where we are from 7-5.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You only need to consider things in light of "4 games left, sole possession of 3rd". Whatever happened before that is largely irrelevant even though it was a good effort to be where we are from 7-5.

bingo.

 

[3rdside]

Unless, of course, mcd has already conceded spots one and two and has a target firmly in mind. But we need a PF and there's none better than Simmons so that doesn't quite stack up.


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[AzStevenCal]

You only need to consider things in light of "4 games left, sole possession of 3rd". Whatever happened before that is largely irrelevant even though it was a good effort to be where we are from 7-5.

Not even. The schedule says otherwise. We're still a really bad team. We have no one on this roster that if we sat them would turn this roster into anything it isn't already. Players get hot, players get lazy. If your side gets hot and the other side coasts, your bad team beats a better team. That's why every single team that has ever tanked still won games. You can increase your chances of losing by doing what Philadelphia did and give away every single veteran but that's about the dumbest approach to building I've ever seen.

Has Chandler been a good player this season? Has Tucker? Has Booker? Has Price? There were times this season when I would have thought it was impossible to find a worse player than Tucker and Chandler wasn't much better. Booker would have seen very little court time on any team in the league if winning now was even a remote goal. How many people complained about Price as our 3rd guard and here we are playing him major minutes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Unless, of course, mcd has already conceded spots one and two and has a target firmly in mind. But we need a PF and there's none better than Simmons so that doesn't quite stack up.


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Or not. There are so many in this draft that are better PF's right now as far as the NBA game is concerned. Maybe Simmons becomes the best but it's far from a lock. It's even far from a lock that he'll be used as a power forward. In today's game he almost has to be able to shoot from mid-range and beyond and so far, Simmons can't. He can't shoot and he has mediocre measureables, the hype is still overly strong with this one. I'd much rather gamble on Ingram bulking up. Feed the Ingram, save the franchise.

 

[3rdside]

It's pretty big weakness but for me he's just an all round baller - a point forward like the Greek freak maybe. 4.8 assists for a guy his size is a) pretty outstanding b) one whole assist more than Odom had at college; Odom was a triple double threat on any given night and c) his TS% was .600% so he must be doing something right.


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[AzStevenCal]

It's pretty big weakness but for me he's just an all round baller - a point forward like the Greek freak maybe. 4.8 assists for a guy his size is a) pretty outstanding b) one whole assist more than Odom had at college; Odom was a triple double threat on any given night and c) his TS% was .600% so he must be doing something right.

If he had the Greek Freak's measurements, I'd probably agree with you, but he's nowhere close to that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Unless, of course, mcd has already conceded spots one and two and has a target firmly in mind. But we need a PF and there's none better than Simmons so that doesn't quite stack up.


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I think he already knows what he wants to do at #1 and #2. If that doesn't work out, he has another target firmly in mind at #3-6 and no one knows for sure what players will be picked where in that range. So he could get his guy at 6 as easily as at 3.

You always plan to succeed based upon the worst case scenario. Everything else is a bonus.