Suns @ Thunder 11-12-18

[1tinsoldier]

i thought Dragic was over-rated here
don't like how he left
but i'd still be happy to have him fill our PG hole instead of Ariza filling nothing

 

[Yuma]

i thought Dragic was over-rated here
don't like how he left
but i'd still be happy to have him fill our PG hole instead of Ariza filling nothing

Yeah, I agree. Except, he did play ball with us when we brought in Bledsoe. He actually played side by side as a "2" guard to Bledsoe without complaining. So I give him that. Then I can see his point when they started wanting to bring IT into the starting lineup. Probably time to look for greener pastures at that point.

 

[Hoop Head]

Dude, if we are talking Ariza needs to go, Anderson is 10X worse! LMAO. If James Jones were really a GM Wizard, get us a viable PG straight up for Anderson, and then I will be 100% behind him! LOL! No way that actually happens, but if...

I'd like to see Anderson go also but that's less likely to happen. Unlike Ariza his deal goes into next season and he hasn't shown anything in much longer. You can say Ariza sucks here because of all of the young players since he played really well in Houston last year but Anderson doesn't have any sort of brightside to look back at. He was dropped from Houston's rotation early in the season last year and never made it back. So we're going to be stuck with him unless we can trade him with a pick or something to get him off the books. With Dragic I think he might be a little better than a bench warmer. I wouldn't count on it but if we did acquire Dragic I wouldn't mind seeing him get some minutes with him to see if they can run a 2 man game like Dragic and Frye did. If it doesn't work, send him back to the bench.

 

[Covert Rain]

This team is sooooo bad. Much worse than I thought they would be.

 

[1Sun]

This team is sooooo bad. Much worse than I thought they would be.

Pretty much exactly as I thought they would be...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Pretty much exactly as I thought they would be...

Well, so far you were closer to nailing this train wreck than the rest of us.

 

[taz02]

1Sun pretty much nailed it.

At least we don't have to wonder if firing McD was the right move.

 

[taz02]

How bad are we?

Tied with Cleveland for the worst record in the NBA.

Last in scoring at 101.2

29th in turnovers at 18.4. Only Atlanta is worse with 18.6

29th in total rebounds per game with 48.2 behind only Memphis with 47.4

29th in blocks per game at 3.5

27th in personal fouls

Last in opponent scoring margin at 13.5! Atlanta is 29th with 8.9 This is an eye-popping stat. This has to be historically bad, no other team is even close. The Lakers are 15th at -.07. We would have to close the gap by 13ppg just to be average.

Milwaukee is 1st at -11.9, a 25.4ppg difference.To show just how bad this is, if the suns were spotted a full quarter of scoring they would lose to Milwaukee by .1.....

 

[Mainstreet]

And the Suns do not even have a GM with a proven track record that might be able to put Humpty Dumpty together again.

 

[SirStefan32]

I really don't think the Suns are as bad as they look. There is no doubt that there are major holes in the roster, such as point guard and stuff that Ariza and Anderson were supposed to help with, such as depth, shooting, and in Ariza's case, defense. Booker looks good, even though it's clear he is not 100%, Ayton looks better than any reasonable person expected him to look, Warren looks great with his new three-point shot, Bridges is really good. They need stability- mainly a point guard and some depth, but I really don't think they are that far from being a decent team.

 

[taz02]

Yes, i agree there are individual bright spots and I think they should be playing better but the fact is, they are the worst team in the league in both offense and defense.

When you need to close a 14 point gap in scoring differential just to be average there are serious problems. If we added a PG that brought 23ppg to the table we might be average.

My fear is that igor is part of the problem, he seems just as lost as the players.

 

[Mainstreet]

I really don't think the Suns are as bad as they look. There is no doubt that there are major holes in the roster, such as point guard and stuff that Ariza and Anderson were supposed to help with, such as depth, shooting, and in Ariza's case, defense. Booker looks good, even though it's clear he is not 100%, Ayton looks better than any reasonable person expected him to look, Warren looks great with his new three-point shot, Bridges is really good. They need stability- mainly a point guard and some depth, but I really don't think they are that far from being a decent team.

The Suns appear to be a fragmented team at the moment. They have some pieces but it's not clicking.

I agree a point guard and some depth would help. I'm not expecting the Suns to turn it around this season but I would like to see some chemistry. Even less talented teams play hard.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My fear is that igor is part of the problem, he seems just as lost as the players.

That's my fear too but I look at the individual players and I'm not sure what a coach can do here. Our best player missed the preseason and is still not up to speed. And we are counting on a raw rookie to take the worst team in the league forward. I think that's probably too much to expect any coach to fix in such short time. but at first blush, I'm just not convinced Koko's offense is the right one for the NBA. Especially if the "walk it up slowly" offense is by design. And if it's not by design, someone should be on these guys to push the tempo every possession.

 

[Hoop Head]

The only upside to being so bad this early is looking at how bad Utah was in the first 2 months of last season. They looked like they would be a bottom 5 team during that time, right there with us in the pingpong ball race. They went on a tear throughout January and February to bring them back to 500 and then played solid ball for the remainder of the year. It took them a while to click, and they had a lot of roster changes as well. I don't think the Suns will turn things around like that but I think they can turn things around to quit being bottom feeders.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The only upside to being so bad this early is looking at how bad Utah was in the first 2 months of last season. They looked like they would be a bottom 5 team during that time, right there with us in the pingpong ball race. They went on a tear throughout January and February to bring them back to 500 and then played solid ball for the remainder of the year. It took them a while to click, and they had a lot of roster changes as well. I don't think the Suns will turn things around like that but I think they can turn things around to quit being bottom feeders.

Wasn't that more the result of Rudy Gobert playing injured and then sitting, and then going out with another injury shortly after he returned. Or something along those lines?

 

[Hoop Head]

Wasn't that more the result of Rudy Gobert playing injured and then sitting, and then going out with another injury shortly after he returned. Or something along those lines?

Gobert did miss some time but looking at their schedule last year it seems they just hit some bad losing streaks before finally coming together. They had them with and without Gobert. They were reeling from Hayward leaving still. Rubio was new and had changed his style of play quite a bit. Mitchell didn't step up right away either, going in and out of the starting lineup throughout November. It seems they tried making adjustments but they just weren't working. It took a while for them to find a winning formula.

They stayed 500 up until they were 13-13 but fell to 17-26, and didn't hit their big win streak for a little longer, doing so at 19-28. They ended up at 30-28 before losing their 29th game.

Here's a good look at their schedule, it lists the scores for each game, what their record was, and their starting 5.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2018_start.html

They only had 1 starting lineup that played above 500, Gobert, Favors, Ingles, Mitchell, and Rubio. They went 40-28.

Other than lineup they had the lineup of Gobert, Favors, Ingles, O'Neale, and Mitchell go 4-0 when Rubio was out. The rest had 500 records or worse.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I really don't think the Suns are as bad as they look. There is no doubt that there are major holes in the roster, such as point guard and stuff that Ariza and Anderson were supposed to help with, such as depth, shooting, and in Ariza's case, defense. Booker looks good, even though it's clear he is not 100%, Ayton looks better than any reasonable person expected him to look, Warren looks great with his new three-point shot, Bridges is really good. They need stability- mainly a point guard and some depth, but I really don't think they are that far from being a decent team.

I'm with you here. The problem with Suns right now is there are literally two gaping holes at two starting positions, PG and PF. That isn't a small problem to have. Basically the way I see it, the Suns have horrible players at the position that initiates and facilitates the offense, and at a position that you need to hit open shots regularly and rebound.

But the problem is further exacerbated by the Suns having a wretchedly bad bench.

From my background (military), we are always taught that if you bitch about something, offer a solution to fix it.

I would trade for Tyus Jones. Trade JJ and the Bucks pick. JJ is currently the 3rd best SF on the roster, and while he may become good one day, Jones is already pretty good and he fills a major weakness on this team.

I would start:
Jones, Booker, Bridges, TJ, and Ayton

Bench of:
Canaan, Ariza, Anderson, Holmes. Rotate Melton and Okobo to the NAZ Suns.

This team will still suck, but it would give the team an opportunity to develop some chemistry, develop some youth, and get more ping pong balls. Pray to the heavens that we get Williamson to fill the gaping hole at PF.

And then next year you have:
Jones, Booker, Bridges, Williamson, and Ayton.
Okobo, TJ, Holmes, and ?

I can't say whether I think Igor is the problem right now, because the players are just so bad right now. They aren't executing, and when players aren't executing even simple things, it's hard to tell if coaching is the issue.

 

[1tinsoldier]

...I'm just not convinced Koko's offense is the right one for the NBA. Especially if the "walk it up slowly" offense is by design. And if it's not by design, someone should be on these guys to push the tempo every possession.

that's the core if the Igor issue for me -- about many aspects of the offense and defense
if what i'm seeing is by design, it's Igor's bad
if what i'm seeing is the players, i blame the players and Igor for not getting on them

 

[1Sun]

Yes, i agree there are individual bright spots and I think they should be playing better but the fact is, they are the worst team in the league in both offense and defense.

When you need to close a 14 point gap in scoring differential just to be average there are serious problems. If we added a PG that brought 23ppg to the table we might be average.

My fear is that igor is part of the problem, he seems just as lost as the players.

Igor was part of the problem the last time he was with the Suns. I don't see why it would be any different this time around...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm with you here. The problem with Suns right now is there are literally two gaping holes at two starting positions, PG and PF. That isn't a small problem to have. Basically the way I see it, the Suns have horrible players at the position that initiates and facilitates the offense, and at a position that you need to hit open shots regularly and rebound.

But the problem is further exacerbated by the Suns having a wretchedly bad bench.

From my background (military), we are always taught that if you bitch about something, offer a solution to fix it.

I would trade for Tyus Jones. Trade JJ and the Bucks pick. JJ is currently the 3rd best SF on the roster, and while he may become good one day, Jones is already pretty good and he fills a major weakness on this team.

I would start:
Jones, Booker, Bridges, TJ, and Ayton

Bench of:
Canaan, Ariza, Anderson, Holmes. Rotate Melton and Okobo to the NAZ Suns.

This team will still suck, but it would give the team an opportunity to develop some chemistry, develop some youth, and get more ping pong balls. Pray to the heavens that we get Williamson to fill the gaping hole at PF.

And then next year you have:
Jones, Booker, Bridges, Williamson, and Ayton.
Okobo, TJ, Holmes, and ?

I can't say whether I think Igor is the problem right now, because the players are just so bad right now. They aren't executing, and when players aren't executing even simple things, it's hard to tell if coaching is the issue.

I couldn’t argue with what you propose. But man would I feel let down selling low on JJ. Really bad.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I couldn’t argue with what you propose. But man would I feel let down selling low on JJ. Really bad.

My thoughts are that he is a sunk cost already, and if he can be sent off to add a good productive player, so be it.

I'm never a fan of drafting guys that have no real definable skill that they are good at. Defense isn't definable skill, and good college defensive players aren't always good in the NBA. Jackson has no real go to offense move, and in the NBA, you need more than one go to move to really be successful.

If you go back and look, I was in the Tatum camp because I watched both play and it was obvious that Tatum would at least step in and contribute from day one and I wasn't so sure about Jackson. Granted, we had no shot at Tatum, but most of us thought the Suns might have a shot at him. Looking back retrospectively, the Suns really should have had Fox as the next player on their board, above Jackson, because Fox had definable skills that he was good at in college.

Right now I view his chances to ever develop as a 50-50 proposition, and if I can get a good pro player for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat as long as it fits a position of need.

 

[95pro]

The only upside to being so bad this early is looking at how bad Utah was in the first 2 months of last season. They looked like they would be a bottom 5 team during that time, right there with us in the pingpong ball race. They went on a tear throughout January and February to bring them back to 500 and then played solid ball for the remainder of the year. It took them a while to click, and they had a lot of roster changes as well. I don't think the Suns will turn things around like that but I think they can turn things around to quit being bottom feeders.

They have Mitchell (sp) who went nuts.

 

[95pro]

...
I'm never a fan of drafting guys that have no real definable skill that they are good at. Defense isn't definable skill, and good college defensive players aren't always good in the NBA. Jackson has no real go to offense move, and in the NBA, you need more than one go to move to really be successful.

...

He has that little step back jumper in the elbow area, but he seldom uses it because he's going so fast. Just seeing the glass half full.

 

[Hoop Head]

They have Mitchell (sp) who went nuts.

I don't think they planned on Mitchell being as good offensively as he was. He actually averaged more in Utah than in college. 20.5 ppg in Utah and 15.6 in his last year in college.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My thoughts are that he is a sunk cost already, and if he can be sent off to add a good productive player, so be it.

I'm never a fan of drafting guys that have no real definable skill that they are good at. Defense isn't definable skill, and good college defensive players aren't always good in the NBA. Jackson has no real go to offense move, and in the NBA, you need more than one go to move to really be successful.

If you go back and look, I was in the Tatum camp because I watched both play and it was obvious that Tatum would at least step in and contribute from day one and I wasn't so sure about Jackson. Granted, we had no shot at Tatum, but most of us thought the Suns might have a shot at him. Looking back retrospectively, the Suns really should have had Fox as the next player on their board, above Jackson, because Fox had definable skills that he was good at in college.

Right now I view his chances to ever develop as a 50-50 proposition, and if I can get a good pro player for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat as long as it fits a position of need.

Yes you were definitely in the Tatum camp. I liked Tatum but was guilty of falling for the lure of JJ’s upside potential.